4196 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Don't get me wrong. I'll still cut down the Templars ravaging the Hinterlands in a heartbeat. But I'm less willing to be sympathetic to the mages if they choose to ally themselves with the Venatori. Granted, it might be that the rebels only joined the Vens because of a choice you make earlier in the game.

Frankly, I would see that as asinine as the rebel templars allying with the Red Templar faction. I hope the rebel mages aren't vilified as a whole.

Can't we have three-dimensional figures on both sides of an ideological divide, instead of more villainous foes who exist simply for the player to smite down?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

No, the war did not start then. If you read Asunder, at the time of the Circle's secession from the Chantry, the Templar Order was not a separate body from the Chantry, but rather a subordinate. The Chantry could certainly consider the secession of the mages to be a casus belli, but vitally, they did not. The Chantry did not declare war on the Circle for seceding from it. Rather, the Templar Order then seceded from the Chantry in turn (incidentally giving the Chantry a casus belli against the Order as well) and declared war on the mages completely without provocation.

Thousands of Apostates suddenly springing up all over Thedas is provocation. It is the Templar's duty to protect the world from magical threats, and that is a big one.   

 

We should stop. This is a Vivienne thread. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

 

lol. 

[LobselVith8]

But how though? I don't even think they could enforce the Magi boon. The Divine would just ignore it.

In the words of Fiona, "**** the Divine."

A national hero (who, as Queen Anora points out at the royal ceremony, is seen by some as being blessed by the Maker) publicly asking for mage autonomy (with the new ruler advocating support for mage independence) can have an impact among the people and the mages, even if the Chantry opposes the measure.

[Dean_the_Young]

They should be there at the Circle 24/7 until they pass their Harrowing. The Harrowing should be the "Okay, you can go outside now" test. Though the Templars should still check up on them occasionally, like a parole officer. Otherwise we'll have another Uldred, a Harrowed mage that fell to demons. 

 

Of course, if the Harrowing becomes a 'you can go outside now test' than either the standards for going outside are going to drop considerably or the Harrowing itself becomes harder.
 

[AresKeith]

Of course, if the Harrowing becomes a 'you can go outside now test' than either the standards for going outside are going to drop considerably or the Harrowing itself becomes harder.
 

 

I can't see the Harrowing itself getting harder since it's a test to see if they're capable of resisting demons

[Hellion Rex]

In the words of Fiona, "**** the Divine."

A national hero (who, as Queen Anora points out at the royal ceremony, is seen by some as being blessed by the Maker) publicly asking for mage autonomy (with the new ruler advocating support for mage independence) can have an impact among the people and the mages, even if the Chantry opposes the measure.

But still, who would enforce it? Much less make the Templars obey.

[LobselVith8]

Possibly. It depends in what way it'll come up.

True. Meredith implies the Circles are reacting to the pronouncement in Act III's "King Alistair" quest, so I'd assume Vivienne heard about it.

[The Elder King]

In the words of Fiona, "**** the Divine."
A national hero (who, as Queen Anora points out at the royal ceremony, is seen by some as being blessed by the Maker) publicly asking for mage autonomy (with the new ruler advocating support for mage independence) can have an impact among the people and the mages, even if the Chantry opposes the measure.

I really wonder why that phrase is quoted (more in the past to be honest), when Fiona seemed to understand that it wasn't probably the wisest thing to say (it seems to me that it was an impulsive reaction rather then her true opinions on her).

[Dean_the_Young]

I can't see the Harrowing itself getting harder since it's a test to see if they're capable of resisting demons

 

Certainly: increase the duration and intensity. Resisting demons in a short, staged context of a small part of the fade which you know is a test is a far cry from an effective stress test of long-term factors. Throw in deceit, betrayal, common hostility, and a good deal of sleep deprivation to simulate physical exhaustion. Physical exhaustion is key for helping test mental endurance.

 

Compare the Warden's Harrowing to, say, basic training, and I'd say the later does a better job of testing a person's grit. And that's without any equivalent to American Ranger school.

 

As it stands now, Harrowing is just the 'we trust you in a building of other mages and dedicated armed guard.' The Circles don't have a test for the purpose of standing wider society.

[The Elder King]

True. Meredith implies the Circles are reacting to the pronouncement in Act III's "King Alistair" quest, so I'd assume Vivienne heard about it.

Indeed. I don't know what exactly happened after the declaration of the Warden, but it probably had some effects in all sides of the Circle system.

[LobselVith8]

But still, who would enforce it? Much less make the Templars obey.

The mages are already autonomous, so that isn't my point. I meant the Hero seeking independence for the Circle of Ferelden having an impact among the mages, given his station and role as a national hero. The mages could see Ferelden as a sanctuary, given the ruler's support for a free Circle.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The mages are already autonomous, so that isn't my point. I meant the Hero seeking independence for the Circle of Ferelden having an impact among the mages, given his station and role as a national hero. The mages could see Ferelden as a sanctuary, given the ruler's support for a free Circle.

Why do you think they have flocked to the Hinterlands in DAI? 

[Hellion Rex]

Why do you think they have flocked to the Hinterlands in DAI?

I think the Hinterlands might partially consist of the remains of Ferelden's two Circles. Why go to Redcliffe specifically, otherwise?
Many people didn't choose the Magi boon, so what could possibly make Redcliffe attractive to the rebellion?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I think the Hinterlands might partially consist of the remains of Ferelden's two Circles. Why go to Redcliffe specifically, otherwise?

It's beautiful that time of year.

 

But yeah, I can see with how close Redcliffe and Kinloch Hold were to each other how that would be an easy trek to get to. Plus with the Hinterlands bordering the Kocari Wilds, you really only have to worry about the Templars coming from a few ways. 

[Xilizhra]

Certainly: increase the duration and intensity. Resisting demons in a short, staged context of a small part of the fade which you know is a test is a far cry from an effective stress test of long-term factors. Throw in deceit, betrayal, common hostility, and a good deal of sleep deprivation to simulate physical exhaustion. Physical exhaustion is key for helping test mental endurance.

 

Compare the Warden's Harrowing to, say, basic training, and I'd say the later does a better job of testing a person's grit. And that's without any equivalent to American Ranger school.

 

As it stands now, Harrowing is just the 'we trust you in a building of other mages and dedicated armed guard.' The Circles don't have a test for the purpose of standing wider society.

Acceptable as a sort of advanced Harrowing to qualify for certain things... assuming, of course, that like in basic training, the penalty for failure isn't death.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Acceptable as a sort of advanced Harrowing to qualify for certain things... assuming, of course, that like in basic training, the penalty for failure isn't death.

How could it be anything else since failure means you become an abomination? 

[Xilizhra]

How could it be anything else since failure means you become an abomination? 

By having more advanced and prepared mages on hand to kill the demon before it possesses the student?

[Dean_the_Young]

By having more advanced and prepared mages on hand to kill the demon before it possesses the student?

 

Of course, a test of how you'd respond in a life or death situation soon fails if there's an assurance of intervention.

 

Which doesn't mean a safety stand by is a bad idea by any means: the military doesn't do water-crash escape training without a safety. It just that you're losing part of what the Harrowing test is supposed to demonstrate, ie the individual's personal ability on their own.

 

It might also be worth considering what the consequences for failing a Harrowing-exam with an intervention should be. Should someone seeking to go outside be able to take the test again whenever they like? The next day? Week? Month? Year? Forever? What do you do with someone with a pattern of failing their Harrowing?

[Maria Caliban]

I can't see the Harrowing itself getting harder since it's a test to see if they're capable of resisting demons

Does it work though?

I know there's gameplay/story segregation, but it feels like DA II showed us dozens of mages who became abominations the moment they were put in danger. Not to mention Orsino turning himself into some sort of demon, blood magicy monster.

[AresKeith]

Does it work though?

I know there's gameplay/story segregation, but it feels like DA II showed us dozens of mages who became abominations the moment they were put in danger. Not to mention Orsino turning himself into some sort of demon, blood magicy monster.

 

Just because they passed it doesn't mean they still can't fall prey to demons, look at Uldred in DAO

[xXxshemlifexXx]

I really wonder why that phrase is quoted (more in the past to be honest), when Fiona seemed to understand that it wasn't probably the wisest thing to say (it seems to me that it was an impulsive reaction rather then her true opinions on her).

Children (physically or mentally) relating very strongly to "Down with religioooon! I hate authorityyy!"

[Xilizhra]

Of course, a test of how you'd respond in a life or death situation soon fails if there's an assurance of intervention.

 

Which doesn't mean a safety stand by is a bad idea by any means: the military doesn't do water-crash escape training without a safety. It just that you're losing part of what the Harrowing test is supposed to demonstrate, ie the individual's personal ability on their own.

 

It might also be worth considering what the consequences for failing a Harrowing-exam with an intervention should be. Should someone seeking to go outside be able to take the test again whenever they like? The next day? Week? Month? Year? Forever? What do you do with someone with a pattern of failing their Harrowing?

Firstly, recall that for the original subject of this conversation is the enhanced Harrowing to ensure that one doesn't have to have guards on them at all times, not the one designed to ensure that you can live in that environment; as such, failure need not have any serious consequences beyond not getting the freedom of movement that you initially desired.

 

However, what you've said also applies to the original Harrowing. And for that, I think not passing it would probably lead to having continuous, apprentice-level curtailed access to anything that might increase one's powers until you do pass it, unless you volunteer for Tranquility. As for how often it'd be taken... I don't believe I have enough information to create a detailed schedule; if someone has a pattern of failing it, though, then I believe it's most important to find out why and try to correct whatever the root of the problem is.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Just because they passed it doesn't mean they still can't fall prey to demons, look at Uldred in DAO

Thus like I said, the Templars will need to check in on them occasionally, like once a month for example, to see how they are faring.