4196 réponses à ce sujet

[daveliam]

Does it matter how she does it, and how she has ammassed power?

 

 

She is a mage within arms reach of the empress, and has a reputation for ruthlessness.  The Knight-Commander of her Circle should be ashamed, then executed.

 

Well to be fair, what do we know about how it works in Orlais?  Look at how differently the Ferelden and Kirkwall Circles ran.  Perhaps Orlais runs more loosely given that Celene is supposed to be a really confident ruler. 

 

Although, to be honest, I'm not sure if it's addressed anywhere in the lore.  I guess my point is that I'm not going to be so quick to lob insults about how Bioware is breaking their own lore without knowing more of the story. 

[Hellion Rex]

Does it matter how she does it, and how she has ammassed power?

 

 

She is a mage within arms reach of the empress, and has a reputation for ruthlessness.  The Knight-Commander of her Circle should be ashamed, then executed.

That's assuming that she doesn't have templars escorting her at court. It's highly possible she has a templar escort the minute she exits the Tower.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Celene isn't subservient to the Chantry. In fact based on her comments at the very beginning of the Masked Empire preview, being perceived as letting the Chantry govern Orlais would be bad for her.

[Steelcan]

How anyone assumes that the place where the Chantry and Templar orders are seated would be more lax on mages is beyond me

[Hellion Rex]

Well to be fair, what do we know about how it works in Orlais?  Look at how differently the Ferelden and Kirkwall Circles ran.  Perhaps Orlais runs more loosely given that Celene is supposed to be a really confident ruler. 

 

Although, to be honest, I'm not sure if it's addressed anywhere in the lore.  I guess my point is that I'm not going to be so quick to lob insults about how Bioware is breaking their own lore without knowing more of the story. 

Well, and remember that this is Montsimmard, not the White Spire. It sounds like these two are run very differently.

[renfrees]

Well, running with typical social climber would be endearing for a change.

[Ianamus]

I always assumed Morrigan simply hid the fact that she was a mage. Surely you need to be an official member of a circle to become a court mage?

 

 

Frankly, if Vivienne is opposed to the mage rebellion, I'm wondering how long she will remain at the Inquisitor's side if the protagonist supports mage autonomy, or why she thinks a Dalish or Vashoth Inquisitor would want to restore the status quo in the first place.

 

The Vashoth may have rejected the Qun but they grew up being told that mages are dangerous and seeing them chained. Even though they rejected it they may still fear mages or treat them with caution.

 

As for the Dalish it's a bit more tricky. I plan on playing a Dalish elf yet I am pro-circle so I will need to work out how I'm going to justify his stance on mages. 'There are simply too many human/city elf mages for the Dalish method of one-on-one tutoring from a keeper to work' is probably a good start, and if the backstory is not fixed you could roleplay one whose clan had the keeper turn into an abomination and had to put them down. Or maybe we were a member of Zathrians clan and are still horrified at what he did?

 

Either way I'm sure Vivienne will simply ask for their stance on mages before joining the party. or maybe she has no choice and has to join the Inquisition for her own safety. It's sure to be one of the first things to come up, at least. 

[azarhal]

People are complaining about Vivienne being at court breaking lore, when DAO had a mage that lived in his own house and even got married with kids. It is already established that some mage get the ok from the Templars to go around unsupervised. Wynne was one such mage too.

[Steelcan]

People are complaining about Vivienne being at court breaking lore, when DAO had a mage that lived in his own house and even got married with kids. It is already established that some mage get the ok from the Templars to go around unsupervised. Wynne was one such mage too.

Do you have any proof that Wilhelm wasn't simply an apostate?

[daveliam]

How anyone assumes that the place where the Chantry and Templar orders are seated would be more lax on mages is beyond me

 

I guess more lax isn't really what I meant.  I guess I meant that it might run differently.  Celene is a strong leader who is probably juggling influence from the Chantry, influence from the Templars, and influence from the nobility in her court.  I could easily see a ruler make a declaration that she will allow a Court Mage in her court in order to assert her independence from the other two entities and demonstrate that she's not a puppet empress.  And I could easily see this be a point of contention that she has to maneuver and, additionally, would make sense to put a woman like Vivienne who seems like she is fairly conservative with regard to the mage rebellion in the position.

 

It's not too far fetched for me to see a situation like this.  Perhaps, I'm completely off base.  Perhaps, on the other hand, there is a well written story that explains the whole situation.  We just don't know yet.

[Hellion Rex]

Do you have any proof that Wilhelm wasn't simply an apostate?

He wasn't though. He was former Circle mage. However, it was Maric that told the Chantry to shove it and let Wilhelm live wherever, due to the Chantry's own use of mages in warfare against Ferelden. So he technically became an apostate afterwards, because he was living outside the Circle.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Orlais is not Kirkwall. The templars had more there power because the secular authorities were weak in Kirkwall. Besides there are places where the Chantry is more strict than in Orlais already: The Anderfels or Tantervale.

[GVulture]

Well to be fair, what do we know about how it works in Orlais?  Look at how differently the Ferelden and Kirkwall Circles ran.  Perhaps Orlais runs more loosely given that Celene is supposed to be a really confident ruler. 

 

Although, to be honest, I'm not sure if it's addressed anywhere in the lore.  I guess my point is that I'm not going to be so quick to lob insults about how Bioware is breaking their own lore without knowing more of the story. 

In The Stolen Throne the Orlesian usurper had a court mage that didn't live in the Circle, didn't have Templar escorts, or any kind of leash or constraint at all. Could be that perhaps Orlais trusts its mages a bit better, yes?

 

Or perhaps the Empress might have some Templar training to prevent blood magic influence and whatnot.

[Former_Fiend]

@ Former Fiend

 

And this isn't the Freemarches

 

This is Oralis the seat of power of the Chantry in THEDAS, note that distinction, this isn't Kirkwall seat of Templar power in the East.

 

This is the Seat of Templar/Chantry Authority in the continent.

 

Celene wouldn't risk upsetting people who can easily declare her to be unfit for rule.

 

And on a secular level, Orlais is one of if not the strongest nations in Thedas. Even when the Chantry had the templars at their beck and call- they don't any more and as far as I can tell the rogue templars aren't a recognized authority - they couldn't just order emperors about. There's a reason why an imperial line rules Orlais, not the Divine.

 

Celene risks as much by appearing to be a puppet of the Chantry as she does by going against them. It's a juggling act of defiance and appeasement. 

[Hellion Rex]

In The Stolen Throne the Orlesian usurper had a court mage that didn't live in the Circle, didn't have Templar escorts, or any kind of leash or constraint at all. Could be that perhaps Orlais trusts its mages a bit better, yes?

 

Or perhaps the Empress might have some Templar training to prevent blood magic influence and whatnot.

Well, that was a Circle mage that was helping Meghren, no? And the Chantry let several mages help out the Orlesians versus the Ferelden natives.

[LobselVith8]

The Vashoth may have rejected the Qun but they grew up being told that mages are dangerous and seeing them chained. Even though they rejected it they may still fear mages or treat them with caution.

 

If the protagonist is a mage, then I think the Vashoth society he or she came from has to be quite different from the typical Qunari community, unless the player starts off with a collar and a mouth that's sewn shut.

 

As for the Dalish it's a bit more tricky. I plan on playing a Dalish elf yet I am pro-circle so I will need to work out how I'm going to justify his stance on mages. 'There are simply too many human/city elf mages for the Dalish method of one-on-one tutoring from a keeper to work' is probably a good start, and if the backstory is not fixed you could roleplay one whose clan had the keeper turn into an abomination and had to put them down. Or maybe we were a member of Zathrians clan and are still horrified at what he did?

 

The Dalish clans are the remnants of the Dales, a nation where mages were among the nobility, with a culture that disagrees on the Circles (who Ariane implies played a part in the fall of the Dales) and who religiously view magic as a gift of the Creators. Your elven Inquisitor would need to forsake his (or her) cultural and religious views to support the Chantry controlled Circles.

 

Either way I'm sure Vivienne will simply ask for their stance on mages before joining the party. or maybe she has no choice and has to join the Inquisition for her own safety. It's sure to be one of the first things to come up, at least. 

 

That may very well come up, if Vivienne assumes that the Inquisition may help quell the mage rebellion.

[daveliam]

Vivienne might also not get a say in her appointment in the Inquisition.  It could be similar to how Morrigan joins the Warden where Celene simply springs it on her by stating that she is sending Vivienne with the Inquisitor as a show of support for the Inquisition and Vivienne doesn't get much of a say either way.

[LobselVith8]

People are complaining about Vivienne being at court breaking lore, when DAO had a mage that lived in his own house and even got married with kids. It is already established that some mage get the ok from the Templars to go around unsupervised. Wynne was one such mage too.

 

Wilhelm was a war hero who served under Moira the Rebel Queen and Prince Maric the Savoir. Given his life outside the Circle Tower, where he lived with his wife and children (the latter of which is illegal for any mage governed by the Chantry), I think he likely had a royal boon for his service.

 

Vivienne's role as a court mage isn't strange, given Wynne is offered the same position for the Ferelden court by either King Alistair or Queen Anora, who she says are interested in improving things for mages.

[rapscallioness]

No, I mean this storo looks like someone powerful deside to make her First Enchanter. To use her like orlotan and then kill.

Actually this is kinda what crossed my mind when reading the Ortolan description. I think. If I understand what you're saying correctly.

 

It just seems like Viv is that lil bird that--although being fed everything she could want--she is still in a cage. "Blind" to it, and perhaps just being fattened up for the kill.

 

Or, maybe it alludes to Viv being nice looking and sweet on the outside, but she is bitter inside? Annndd...she'll eventually cut you?

 

Actually, the first one abt Viv being the bird that has been trapped speaks more to me.

[Ianamus]

The Dalish clans are the remnants of the Dales, a nation where mages were among the nobility, with a culture that disagrees on the Circles (who Ariane implies played a part in the fall of the Dales) and who religiously view magic as a gift of the Creators. Your elven Inquisitor would need to forsake his (or her) cultural and religious views to support the Chantry controlled Circles.

 

I'm not really in support of Chantry-controlled Circles, I just don't think that having mages running around the countryside with no compulsory training is a good idea. 

 

On this note, I would like to know more about how the mages in old Elven and Dales culture worked. What was the stance on blood magic? Was training compulsory? What happened when a mage became an abomination? What about weak-willed mages who couldn't resist demonic temptation? I like the idea of playing an Elven Inquisitor who supports that system, but it's hard when exactly how that system dealt with all the complications that arise from giving mages complete freedom is unclear. 

 

We know that the Dalish Keepers are responsible for training mages and the clan are responsible for killing a Dalish mage that becomes an abomination, but this would not work on a large scale since it is so individual-based. 

[daveliam]

Actually this is kinda what crossed my mind when reading the Ortolan description. I think. If I understand what you're saying correctly.

 

It just seems like Viv is that lil bird that--although being fed everything she could want--she is still in a cage. "Blind" to it, and perhaps just being fattened up for the kill.

 

Or, maybe it alludes to Viv being nice looking and sweet on the outside, but she is bitter inside? Annndd...she'll eventually cut you?

 

Actually, the first one abt Viv being the bird that has been trapped speaks more to me.

 

Interesting idea.  I'm just not sure that I could see Vivienne being described as being "blind" to her situation.  She sounds very aware:  of herself, of her surroundings, of her relationships with others, etc.  I think it alludes more to her willingness to put herself in uncomfortable situations for her own benefit (i.e. willing to cut her own gums for a delicious meal) as well as her over-the-top, ostentatious nature.

[Ianamus]

Vivienne might also not get a say in her appointment in the Inquisition.  It could be similar to how Morrigan joins the Warden where Celene simply springs it on her by stating that she is sending Vivienne with the Inquisitor as a show of support for the Inquisition and Vivienne doesn't get much of a say either way.

 

We don't know what stance Gaspard takes on Mages, so with the mage rebellion and Orlesian civil war its possible that Vivienne has completely lost her place in the Orlesian court, at least temporarily, and may have to join the Inquisition for her own safety, if nothing else. 

 

Makes me wonder what all the pro-circle mages are doing at the moment though. I can't see the non-Chantry backed Templars keeping the system going.

[Former_Fiend]

Oh, i could very much see her being blind in the sense that she's deluded herself into thinking her position is stronger than it is; that her place at court isn't just a more gilded cage than the circle.

[LobselVith8]

I'm not really in support of Chantry-controlled Circles, I just don't think that having mages running around the countryside with no compulsory training is a good idea. 

 

I don't think the mage rebellion is opposed to Circles per say, as much as they oppose being under the rule of the Chantry and the templars. After all, the vote was about the Circles being autonomous. Vivienne seems to oppose the mage rebellion, but it's not really clear why that is (if it has to do with something other than her personal power at court).

 

On this note, I would like to know more about how the mages in old Elven and Dales culture worked. What was the stance on blood magic? Was training compulsory? What happened when a mage became an abomination? What about weak-willed mages who couldn't resist demonic temptation? I like the idea of playing an Elven Inquisitor who supports that system, but it's hard when exactly how that system dealt with all the complications that arise from giving mages complete freedom is unclear. 

 

We know that the Dalish Keepers are responsible for training mages and the clan are responsible for killing a Dalish mage that becomes an abomination, but this would not work on a large scale since it is so individual-based. 

 

Merrill says that the Dalish believe all the ancient elves were mages, and that things were very different for them. The Dalish believe their ancestors were immortal, and that they were radically different; for example, the Arlathan elves could take decades simply making introductions with one another.

 

As for the Dalish, all the clans are different, but they seem to share some commonalities; they prohibit any magic that involves spirits, since they view all spirits as dangerous. The Dalish don't share the religious and cultural views that Andrastians have on Spirits and Demons, as you can see from Anders' religious debates with Merrill. Merrill says the clan kills an abominations if an elven mage has fallen prey.

 

Also, the Dales was a nation where elven mages were among the nobility, and they weren't controlled by mages, so I don't see it likely that a traditional Dalish elf would support the Chantry controlled Circles (especially given Ariane inferring that they played a role in defeating the Dales, and taking some elven artifacts as a result). To the Dalish, magic is a gift of the Creators that's supposed to be used. You could play it as an atypical elven Inquisitor, of course.

[Ianamus]

Oh, i could very much see her being blind in the sense that she's deluded herself into thinking her position is stronger than it is; that her place at court isn't just a more gilded cage than the circle.

 

I'm not sure: mages with positions like that tend to get a free pass, so to speak. Wynne was allowed to follow the Warden across ferelden unsupervised, for example, and she was only a senior enchanter. 

 

I like the idea that her position actually did grant her a large ammount of freedom, and that joining the rebellion and getting on the wrong side of the templars and Chantry would put that freedom in jeopardy. That she is unwilling to put her own freedom on the line to fight for the other mages to have more freedom.