Ce sujet est fermé
What most of Thedas thinks is not necessarily right. I personally don't like the implication that sharing a random trait with a group of people automatically means you owe them something.
They don't.
However, to openly oppose them so that one's own position is comfy and of 'order' leaves something to be desired.
One thing I disagree with is that Pro-Circle automatically assumes the status quo.
I believe that those who seek power must shoulder responsibility when they attain it, and she most definitely sought it.
I'm not sure I agree with that. Not completely, anyway. But my point wasn't about she being a terrible human being or not. I have yet to see any qualities that are actually worthy of praise, as far as morality goes. My point was about a character not having to be morally upstanding for us as an audience to like him/her. Morrigan and Isabela (just to mention two examples off the top of my head) were extremely selfish, and both had done and were willing to continue doing pretty terrible stuff, even if the PC could try to geared them toward a different path. Yet their faults are still often overlooked and many people like them, myself included.
You've got it all wrong. She IS trying to help them...Right back into their circles.
Proper stance for any Mage.
I'm not sure I agree with that. Not completely, anyway. But my point wasn't about she being a terrible human being or not. I have yet to see any qualities that are actually worthy of praise, as far as morality goes. My point was about a character not having to be morally upstanding for us as an audience to like him/her. Morrigan and Isabela (just to mention two examples off the top of my head) were extremely selfish, and both had done and were willing to continue doing pretty terrible stuff, even if the PC could try to geared them toward a different path. Yet their faults are still often overlooked and many people like them, myself included.
Morrigan is not only a product of her upbringing, but is morally better than she thinks she is; it can be slowly drawn out over time, and her character wasn't based around being completely horrible in personality; she befriended my Warden rather quickly, and when she's not posturing over being edgy, she's not such a bad person. Isabela is not actively malevolent, and her better nature can be similarly drawn out. Perhaps Vivienne's can too, but based on what they've chosen to emphasize, I have deep doubts.
They don't.
However, to openly oppose them so that one's own position is comfy and of 'order' leaves something to be desired.
"Them" are willing to start a war that will no doubt cost many innocent lives and cause all sorts of damage so they can be more free, even if they still live in far better conditions than the average Thedosian, who will be caught in the crossfire. Vivienne's motivations may be considered reprehensible, but the rebellion is hardly free of this, even if it is often painted with idealism.
"Them" are willing to start a war that will no doubt cost many innocent lives and cause all sorts of damage so they can be more free, even if they still live in far better conditions than the average Thedosian, who will be caught in the crossfire. Vivienne's motivations may be considered reprehensible, but the rebellion is hardly free of this, even if it is often painted with idealism.
Finally!
Realism...Thank the Maker.
Morrigan is not only a product of her upbringing, but is morally better than she thinks she is; it can be slowly drawn out over time, and her character wasn't based around being completely horrible in personality; she befriended my Warden rather quickly, and when she's not posturing over being edgy, she's not such a bad person. Isabela is not actively malevolent, and her better nature can be similarly drawn out. Perhaps Vivienne's can too, but based on what they've chosen to emphasize, I have deep doubts.
Agree, though Isabela was a pirate. That in and of itself is pretty shady. Not to mention she murdered some slaves, even if she felt terrible about it later.
"Them" are willing to start a war that will no doubt cost many innocent lives and cause all sorts of damage so they can be more free, even if they still live in far better conditions than the average Thedosian, who will be caught in the crossfire. Vivienne's motivations may be considered reprehensible, but the rebellion is hardly free of this, even if it is often painted with idealism.
I would seriously contest your presentation of this and consider much of it blatantly wrong, but this isn't the thread for that. I personally consider the rebellion as a whole to be pure, even if some individual members won't be.
Agree, though Isabela was a pirate. That in and of itself is pretty shady. Not to mention she murdered some slaves, even if she felt terrible about it later.
Considering how awful Thedosian law frequently is, I'm not sure how bad her piracy career was.
I would seriously contest your presentation of this and consider much of it blatantly wrong, but this isn't the thread for that. I personally consider the rebellion as a whole to be pure, even if some individual members won't be.
Feel free to PM me or point me to a more suitable thread if you wish to address it. I am very interested in how you think my statements are wrong.
Feel free to PM me or point me to a more suitable thread if you wish to address it. I am very interested in how you think my statements are wrong.
The uneven presentation one.
"Them" are willing to start a war that will no doubt cost many innocent lives and cause all sorts of damage so they can be more free, even if they still live in far better conditions than the average Thedosian, who will be caught in the crossfire. Vivienne's motivations may be considered reprehensible, but the rebellion is hardly free of this, even if it is often painted with idealism.
They as a whole, are not 'free' at all. Least not while the templars are taking chase to maim and imprison them like they've done for a thousand years. I'm sure none of the mages missed their familes or their children, but the robes sure were comfy! But this is neither the thread or place for this.
Vivienne's motivations are reprehensible from her very own character description. She appears self concerned and vicious in pursuit of her ambitions.
Well, I'm pleasantly unsurprised.
About Vivienne, I mean. The Dragon Age team has a good record of self-interested, morally non-outstanding strong female characters who subvert and defy the obvious stereotypes. Morrigan was more than a self-centered survivalist, Leliana was more than a choir girl, Isabella was more than a sex object, and Merrill was more than an innocent and harmless victim. I look forward to seeing what Vivienne is more than.
Xil's attitude towards characters who subvert her expectations and desires for her sympathized factions is just generally unsurprising.
Well, I'm pleasantly unsurprised.
About Vivienne, I mean. The Dragon Age team has a good record of self-interested, morally non-outstanding strong female characters who subvert and defy the obvious stereotypes. Morrigan was more than a self-centered survivalist, Leliana was more than a choir girl, Isabella was more than a sex object, and Merrill was more than an innocent and harmless victim. I look forward to seeing what Vivienne is more than.
Xil's attitude towards characters who subvert her expectations and desires for her sympathized factions is just generally unsurprising.
Actually, this was my expectation for her, if you recall what I've said before on the subject. At least, overall extreme unpleasantness.
Also, Merrill was wholly innocent. Not harmless, but she's only dangerous in a fight.
Actually, this was my expectation for her, if you recall what I've said before on the subject. At least, overall extreme unpleasantness.
I suppose I should elaborate: expectations for how she should act as a female mage with power.
Also, Merrill was wholly innocent. Not harmless, but she's only dangerous in a fight.
CoughMeddlingWithPowersSheDidNotUnderstandCough
Sure Xil. Wholly innocent.
Xil's attitude towards characters who subvert her expectations and desires for her sympathized factions is just generally unsurprising.
Well, tbh i'd likely feel the same, if pro-slavery (literal slavery) character was introduced. We all have our sore spots.
All aboard the Merrill express! Will be stopping shortly at the Keeper Marethari platform and finally arriving at Merrill did nothing wrong.
Enjoy the ride!
I suppose I should elaborate: expectations for how she should act as a female mage with power.
As of yet, we've never had companions who join our party from a position of power, aside from Loghain, whom I think also abused his; my standards would be the same for anyone in such a position regardless of gender (her position of course being mage-specific).
CoughMeddlingWithPowersSheDidNotUnderstandCough
Sure Xil. Wholly innocent.
Yes. She didn't initiate harm to any of her clan, ever.
As of yet, we've never had companions who join our party from a position of power, aside from Loghain, whom I think also abused his; my standards would be the same for anyone in such a position regardless of gender (her position of course being mage-specific).
Xil, you lost any claim to objective standards long ago after years of placing factional and tribal concerns over any semblance of objective moral judgements.
You treat Vivienne like many white liberals treat black (or gay) conservatives.
Yes. She didn't initiate harm to any of her clan, ever.
If by 'didn't initiate' you mean 'totally was the one pushing it all forward, despite nearly universal opposition', sure.
Xil, you lost any claim to objective standards long ago after years of placing factional and tribal concerns over any semblance of objective moral judgements.
You treat Vivienne like many white liberals treat black (or gay) conservatives.
If by 'didn't initiate' you mean 'totally was the one pushing it all forward, despite nearly universal opposition', sure.
I only support the mage rebellion because I see it as the more moral option. As for Vivienne... nothing at all, whatsoever, about her has struck me as remotely well-intentioned; she seems wholly selfish.
If by 'didn't initiate' you mean 'totally was the one pushing it all forward, despite nearly universal opposition', sure.
*Sarcasm*
Being pro-circle doesn't translate to being anti-mage or being only selfish.
I suppose I should elaborate: expectations for how she should act as a female mage with power.
CoughMeddlingWithPowersSheDidNotUnderstandCough
Sure Xil. Wholly innocent.
Being pro-circle doesn't translate to being anti-mage or only selfish.
Nonsense, those are brainwashed people 
Retour en haut