4196 réponses à ce sujet

[Reever]

Yeah, this will be a fun one. First thing I did was wonder if we can get rid of her in any way

[MattH]

On the other hand from a Watsonian perspective, there could be plenty of reasons, as already discussed here, that she'd take that sort of approach. So I'm willing to shrug it off. I was also just thinking that her directness might be a way of communicating her disdain- that it could be a way of saying, "you are so low and unworthy of my time I won't even bother to make the effort to be polite or mask how I really feel about you". So here's to hoping the writing for her within the game itself will be good. Given how Mary Kirby wrote both Merrill and Varric, I'm not too worried.

Agreed.

 

Merrill and Varric were wonderfully written characters, I'm certain Vivienne will be just as interesting.

[Mistic]

She's orlesian. Didn't know it needed more explanations than that. Gaspard blatantly insulted the ambassador Teagan with the same rudeness, and everyone at the party was laughing. 

 

This. The preview of The Masked Empire showed clearly that the Orlesians aren't subtle at all with "barbarians" and that they should feel honored just by having an invitation to the party.

 

Spoiler

“It was taken off the body of some Fereldan noblewoman who got caught making trouble for poor Meghren. Moira, I believe.” Behind his gold and green mask, his eyes twinkled with good humor. “Our servants had been using it to kill rats in the cellars.”

 

“Well, she called herself the Rebel Queen. Closer to being a bandit or a mercenary captain, really. She thought she could drive us out of Ferelden.”
“And she was right,” Teagan said, still not looking at Gaspard. “Her son Maric drove you all out of our kingdom.”
“Shame Moira didn’t live to see it,” Gaspard said, looking around the room with a grin. “Perhaps if she’d had one of your big dogs…”

 

Finesse at its best, clearly.

[MWImexico]

This. The preview of The Masked Empire showed clearly that the Orlesians aren't subtle at all with "barbarians" and that they should feel honored just by having an invitation to the party.

Spoiler

“It was taken off the body of some Fereldan noblewoman who got caught making trouble for poor Meghren. Moira, I believe.” Behind his gold and green mask, his eyes twinkled with good humor. “Our servants had been using it to kill rats in the cellars.”

“Well, she called herself the Rebel Queen. Closer to being a bandit or a mercenary captain, really. She thought she could drive us out of Ferelden.”
“And she was right,” Teagan said, still not looking at Gaspard. “Her son Maric drove you all out of our kingdom.”
“Shame Moira didn’t live to see it,” Gaspard said, looking around the room with a grin. “Perhaps if she’d had one of your big dogs…”

Finesse at its best, clearly.

 

Spoiler

I thought Gaspard said that on purpose, because he wanted to start a war. You think he wasn't acting toward his hidden goal but simply because it's a cultural tradition to be rude with strangers / ambassadors?

[The Elder King]

This. The preview of The Masked Empire showed clearly that the Orlesians aren't subtle at all with "barbarians" and that they should feel honored just by having an invitation to the party.
 

Spoiler

“It was taken off the body of some Fereldan noblewoman who got caught making trouble for poor Meghren. Moira, I believe.” Behind his gold and green mask, his eyes twinkled with good humor. “Our servants had been using it to kill rats in the cellars.”
 
“Well, she called herself the Rebel Queen. Closer to being a bandit or a mercenary captain, really. She thought she could drive us out of Ferelden.”
“And she was right,” Teagan said, still not looking at Gaspard. “Her son Maric drove you all out of our kingdom.”
“Shame Moira didn’t live to see it,” Gaspard said, looking around the room with a grin. “Perhaps if she’d had one of your big dogs…”

 
Finesse at its best, clearly.

I don't know enough of Gaspard to say if it's his common way to treat ambassadors, but in that case it was an actual plan to trigger the reaction of his opponent and

Spoiler

worsening the relationship between Orlais and Ferelden to ultimately arrive to a new conquest

; his rudeness was part of his plan.

And i think it'd be better to put details of TME under spoiler tags.

[Mistic]

I don't know enough of Gaspard to say if it's his common way to treat ambassadors, but in that case it was an actual plan to trigger the reaction of his opponent and

Spoiler

worsening the relationship between Orlais and Ferelden to ultimately arrive to a new conquest

; his rudeness was part of his plan.

 

Since we don't know what is Vivienne's plan, then we don't know if that rudeness was necessary or not. Who were going to go to that party? Weren't some of them the duke's allies? Wasn't Vivienne pro-Celene? And what did the ambassador want to do in that party? How is the current situation between Nevarra and Orlais? Too many questions for now.

 

Also, maybe Gaspard's rudeness was intentionally agressive, but the rest of the party-goers were very happy to laugh at the Fereldan barbarian, so the Orlesians really don't mind pissing off foreign dignataries.

 

And i think it'd be better to put details of TME under spoiler tags.

 

Good idea.

[Roninbarista]

Vivienne writes with a wicked pen (or quill-what do they write with in Thedas). The way I saw the letter is that Vivienne is a mage who, on spite of her influence and status is a person the Chantry looks down upon, yet she is able to challenge and even mock others of a higher standing. She's outright rubbing the ambassador's face in her authority.

Could the ambassado retort, call her a "filthy mage," or something nastier? Perhaps, but she called him out and dissed him hard. I think that's a powerful aspect of her personality to shut people down. Perhaps a taste of what we get if we have her as a companion. I suspect she's an even stronger mage and worth bringing along. Her dialogue alone should be worthwhile.

[Dean_the_Young]

Next phase- to see how she interacts with mud farmers and peasants who aren't playing the game. Solidarity? I have no expectations of it. Prefer to avoid them? Quite possible. Reaction to seeing them caught up and butchered in the games or causes of others?

 

We'll see.

[Zered]

I can't wait till I will be able to break her! 

[MWImexico]

Since we don't know what is Vivienne's plan, then we don't know if that rudeness was necessary or not. ...

 

True. Personally, I hope that she wrote that letter because direct rudeness was necessary / useful (game wise). Otherwise I would be a little disappointed; though I wonder right now: maybe the all very direct, strong and blunt behaviour is the reason why the Orlesian society calls her "Madame de Fer"? Perhaps she plays with the scary vibe she gives, that could also explain the choice of clothes ...

[Mistic]

True. Personally, I hope that she wrote that letter because direct rudeness was necessary / useful (game wise). Otherwise I would be a little disappointed; though I wonder right now: maybe the all very direct, strong and blunt behaviour is the reason why the Orlesian society calls her "Madame de Fer"? Perhaps she plays with the scary vibe she gives, that could also explain the choice of clothes ...

 

Her monicker is telling, true, and that Maleficient vibe... Well, she's the "Iron Lady" of Orlais, and Thatcher wasn't kee on on pointless finesse.

[The Elder King]

Since we don't know what is Vivienne's plan, then we don't know if that rudeness was necessary or not. Who were going to go to that party? Weren't some of them the duke's allies? Wasn't Vivienne pro-Celene? And what did the ambassador want to do in that party? How is the current situation between Nevarra and Orlais? Too many questions for now.
 
Also, maybe Gaspard's rudeness was intentionally agressive, but the rest of the party-goers were very happy to laugh at the Fereldan barbarian, so the Orlesians really don't mind pissing off foreign dignataries.
 

 
Good idea.

Indeed, though keep in mind I never said anything about Vivienne in the thread.

[EmissaryofLies]

Vivienne works in mysterious ways?

[Fetunche]

I hope the inquisitor has been given some decent lines by the writers to put her in her place, or maybe the ability to slap her like in Morrigan mod.

[SurelyForth]

I hope the inquisitor has been given some decent lines by the writers to put her in her place, or maybe the ability to slap her like in Morrigan mod.

 

That mod is misogynistic bs and I would be sincerely pissed if anything like it is included in Inquisition.

 

As for "putting her in her place" verbally, I imagine that will be an option, although I doubt it will be the epic verbal beatdown some people are already wanting to give her. 

[Maria Caliban]

Yeah.  Damn my practicality and logic. 
 
 
Mean is not Machiavellian.

The Prince, Chapter XVI 'Concerning Liberality And Meanness' disagrees with you. Machiavelli extorts those in power to be mean, and says: 'The prince who does not exhibit some meanness will come to ruin.'

'We have not seen great things done in our time except by those who have been considered mean; the rest have failed.'
 

And mean is a weakness.  It leaves you vulnerable.  Still no one ever said she had to be smart.  She'll be a lot more fun to manipulate this way ...

Vivienne is smart enough that she'd have read Machiavelli before claiming she knew what it was to be Machiavellian. Something you have obviously not done.

[Hellion Rex]

Didn't Machiavelli write that it is better to be feared than loved? I would assume mean can fall under the "fear" part.

[Maria Caliban]

Didn't Machiavelli write that it is better to be feared than loved? I would assume mean can fall under the "fear" part.

Yes, he praises Hannibal for this 'boundless cruelty' because it meant that his men, despite being from all over, knew they should never cross him. Scipio, he says, was too lenient, so his own men rebelled against him.

There are lines Machiavelli says should never be crossed; taking one man's property or women always ferments rebellion because your other men are all sure theirs is next.

[Wulfram]

The Prince, Chapter XVI 'Concerning Liberality And Meanness' disagrees with you. Machiavelli extorts those in power to be mean, and says: 'The prince who does not exhibit some meanness will come to ruin.'

'We have not seen great things done in our time except by those who have been considered mean; the rest have failed.'
 

 

By parsimonia Machiavelli was referring to being miserly or parsimonious, not meanness in the sense of unkindness as the word has been used previously in this thread

 

Also, in The Discourses on Livy, he says

I believe that it is one of the great signs of prudence which men exhibit in abstaining from threatening and injuring anyone with words, for neither the one and the other takes away strength from the enemy; but the one makes him more cautious, and the other causes him to have greater hatred against you, and with more industry to think of injuring you.

[VelvetStraitjacket]

The more I heard about Vivienne the more I am certain that she's going to be my favorite character.

 

She also reminds me of Grace Jones, which makes her even more awesome She's literally like the love child of Grace Jones and Maleficent.

 

[Das Tentakel]

By parsimonia Machiavelli was referring to being miserly or parsimonious, not meanness in the sense of unkindness as the word has been used previously in this thread
 
Also, in The Discourses on Livy, he says
I believe that it is one of the great signs of prudence which men exhibit in abstaining from threatening and injuring anyone with words, for neither the one and the other takes away strength from the enemy; but the one makes him more cautious, and the other causes him to have greater hatred against you, and with more industry to think of injuring you.

 
Well, Maria quoted the first version of the Prince (Marriott) you can find online. Other translations use the word 'parsimony'. She obviously failed the read the chapter, or the meaning would have become clear to her. The chapter she quoted basically says 'don't bankrupt yourself by being generous, be careful with your money and save it for you might need it later on'. Quite understandable coming from a citizen of a commercial city, and something many princes (and nobles) didn't always get - they had a tendency to run into debt, which might force them or their successors to take drastic measures ('avarice'), like burning Jews or Templars or extort Italian and German bankers (Grace a Dieu pour les Lombards ) or mess with nobles' property and inheritances.
 
Of course, that's also the point where actual 'meanness' might backfire. Henry VII, a fine example of a ruler who combined parsimony AND avarice because he wanted to build up the Crown's financial base, wasn't exactly popular, which might have cost him his throne if a capable challenger had emerged. As it turned out, the price was paid by his ministers (Sir Richard Empson, Sir Edmund Dudley) after his death.

For the rest, well...

The 'dressing down' I read is something a Richelieu might have used against some troublesome, but less powerful grandee (or a Wolsey against a young heir of Northumberland: Anne of the Thousand Days, from about 8:10). Perhaps against an envoy from a far less powerful state, or a minor ruler who is diplomatically, politically and militarily outmatched. Anything else is pretty moronic in my view, but Orlais and the Orlesians don't have to play by actual historical real-world rules. For crying out loud, do these people look like they represent a subtle, nuanced, reasonable, believable culture that is the result of meticulous worldbuilding?

 

If you ask me, it's a case of 'swallow or don't swallow', meaning just let it slide and enjoy the ride, or just blink out.

[Stelae]

The Prince, Chapter XVI 'Concerning Liberality And Meanness' disagrees with you. Machiavelli extorts those in power to be mean, and says: 'The prince who does not exhibit some meanness will come to ruin.'

'We have not seen great things done in our time except by those who have been considered mean; the rest have failed.'
 

Vivienne is smart enough that she'd have read Machiavelli before claiming she knew what it was to be Machiavellian. Something you have obviously not done.

Well, that's both rude and presumptuous. 

 

Actually, before I was a technical writer, I pursued a doctorate in 15th century Italian history.  I've read him in the Italian.  In a 16th century edition held at the Rare Books Library at Monash.  The chapter you refer to deals with the giving and withholding of favour (and by extension, good and bad treatment of your subjects). What you have read in translation as "mean" is not in the "mean-and-nasty" sense, it is better and more usually translated as "ungenerous" or even "parsimonious" - Liberality, generosity, will ruin you if it isn't tempered by your subjects knowing that you can take away --with interest-- what you give out.  That chapter deals with the giving and withholding of favour (and by extension, good and bad treatment of your subjects).  A lord who is spendthrift and favours everyone equally can't manage the tensions within their court and is likely to have empty coffers when they really need to hire mercenaries or improve their infrastructure.  But a Lord who withholds favour from too many people will find that their enemies start to conspire.  It's not about petty insults, it's about benefices and who you're going to send to Naples when there's war and plague there. (Hint:  I'd give that honour to the ambassador for Nevarra.  I'd insist, in fact.)

 

Also consider who he dedicated his book to.  The very Medici who had him arrested and tortured, and then gave him a very well-paid position as an administrator and court writer.  If you can't see the workings of patronage in that, perhaps you should do a bit more reading your own self. 

[Stelae]

I was about to tease you about being a Ferelden dog, but judging from your icon--- 

You're making it too easy, my dear~ 

And here we see the difference between ease and effectiveness.  If you're trying to be insulting, you're way off, and if you're trying to be witty, you appear to be unarmed.  Well, half armed. 

 

I have, you are quite right, a dog -- my beautiful Lily, one of the blithest and most fiercely loving creatures on the planet -- as my avatar.  Well spotted.  One might, if one thinks about it for as much as a millisecond, conclude that I'm not going to be insulted by being called a dog, given that I choose to actually represent myself with one.  So, rather than insulting me, if that was your aim, you've paid me a compliment.  While stating the incredibly obvious. 

 

But perhaps you were trying to show refined Orlesian wit, and gain a reputation for clever analogy? 

 

By calling someone you think of as Fereldan, or Fereldan-like, a dog.  How frightfully original.

 

In Thedas, even in Orlais, "Fereldan dog" is right up there with "blue sky," "green grass," and "pretentious Orlesian" in terms of stating the bleeding obvious.  You might impress the equivalent of a soccer hooligan with such a thing (hurr huurr, she called that Fereldan a Fereldan, hurr hurr) , but even "Fereldan turnip" is more clever, implying a Fereldan is something nasty which emerged from the ground covered in dirt.  Again, it's not scaling the heights of Montparnasse, but it's better than the cliche you resort to.   And at least, at the time, it showed originality.

[EmissaryofLies]

Oh wow. 

[Nefla]

I can't wait till I will be able to break her! 

In Soviet Orlais, Vivienne breaks you.