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[renfrees]

In Soviet Orlais, Vivienne breaks you.

Oh, the shivers...

[Master Warder Z_]

In Soviet Orlais, Vivienne breaks you.

 

Don't even joke about the Qunari taking over...

 

*shudders*

 

I saw enough of the sickle and hammer in reality to want it in DA.

[Maria Caliban]

By parsimonia Machiavelli was referring to being miserly or parsimonious, not meanness in the sense of unkindness as the word has been used previously in this thread

That section is about how a prince ought to interact with those under him, not finances. When he's suggesting you be miserly with your subjects, he doesn't mean raise taxes or be frugal when it comes to spending.

[Allan Schumacher]

*snip*

 

No worries.  I was in a crusty mood and a combination of another things had you be the straw that broke the camels back.

 

In retrospect, while some people may enjoy the teasing, attempting to do so with someone who isn't particularly interested isn't the smartest decision in the world.  More just misread the exchange to start.  Combined with my own biases (I'm the person that media blackouts the games I play), I have trouble relating to the conclusions people draw when context is lacking because it's not something I do.

 

I also have to remember that I know more about the characters than others, and while I didn't write/create any of them specifically, I still already have the ones that I consider favourites based on things that no one else knows about so the comparison is unfair.

 

In any case, I do apologize to the thread in general for my mini outrage.

[Former_Fiend]

More than fair enough, Allan.

 

Really, there's no small part of me that hopes I'm wrong and that when I play the game I'll see the same things in Vivienne you do. I don't want to dislike any party members. 

 

That being said it is all too often that someone(myself) will dislike a thing for the very same reasons someone else(everyone else) likes them. I tend to be on the wrong end of this a lot, so that's just something I keep in mind when a group is trying to bring me around.

 

We'll find out this fall, I suppose.

[revan11exile]

Wow Vivs popularity is growing she might can be put on the same level as Morrigan especially if she is a romance.Can you guys and gals imagine if we were to romance her!     

[EmissaryofLies]

Wouldn't doubt it. She and Solas are definitely the frontrunners for Mr./Miss Popularity. 

[Lillian]

And here we see the difference between ease and effectiveness.  If you're trying to be insulting, you're way off, and if you're trying to be witty, you appear to be unarmed.  Well, half armed. 

 

I have, you are quite right, a dog -- my beautiful Lily, one of the blithest and most fiercely loving creatures on the planet -- as my avatar.  Well spotted.  One might, if one thinks about it for as much as a millisecond, conclude that I'm not going to be insulted by being called a dog, given that I choose to actually represent myself with one.  So, rather than insulting me, if that was your aim, you've paid me a compliment.  While stating the incredibly obvious. 

 

But perhaps you were trying to show refined Orlesian wit, and gain a reputation for clever analogy? 

 

By calling someone you think of as Fereldan, or Fereldan-like, a dog.  How frightfully original.

 

In Thedas, even in Orlais, "Fereldan dog" is right up there with "blue sky," "green grass," and "pretentious Orlesian" in terms of stating the bleeding obvious.  You might impress the equivalent of a soccer hooligan with such a thing (hurr huurr, she called that Fereldan a Fereldan, hurr hurr) , but even "Fereldan turnip" is more clever, implying a Fereldan is something nasty which emerged from the ground covered in dirt.  Again, it's not scaling the heights of Montparnasse, but it's better than the cliche you resort to.   And at least, at the time, it showed originality.

Oh, bravo, ma'am, bravo! I've been waiting for you to respond to my little comment, and I must say, the wait was worth it. Regardless of the hours that passed by going into this refutation, your cunning is unmatched by all in the land. I can attribute the sharpness of your mind to a lego piece upon the ground; this pricked me so. Sadly, however, these comments are sadly irrelevant to the larger scheme of things.

Allow me to explain, and trust me, I'll attempt to simplify my point here.

Fereldans are dogs. Some may be cultured, pampered poodles, yet they're still in the same dog house as the Mabari who are "turnips". They are one-dimensional, transparent. You can see through their inner core as soon as you see them. Blunt as it may be, they re open books, and you may not enjoy the read. Orlesians, however, are the loveliest flowers in all the field. They are the flowers you wish to see as you wade through a garden. However, quite often, a snake is hiding beneath that exact flower. The deceptive nature of Orlesians could be attributed to the political struggle that is apparent in their society, but attributing it to superior intellect is also quite the fair argument. After all, not even a darling puppy with the sense of a turnip would approach a mutt covered in filth and blood. Simply put, baring your fangs before your prey is present is an act so brazen it's simply foolish.

Now that you know the ways of the political sphere, perhaps you would think dubiously on your direct approach... After all, a lion with a coat of gold is far more likely to survive and prosper than a lion with a coat of red. As big as their claws may be in relation to the other, majesty is superior to peasantry. I assure you, the latter will be torn apart, without a soul to hear of their mutinous imaginative equality. Their inferiority is unavoidable; no one pays worship to a rusted iron idol.

 

Edit: I'm having fun with this. 

Modifié par Lillian, 30 mars 2014 - 03:32 .

[Stelae]

Oh, bravo, sir, bravo! I've been waiting for you to respond to my little comment, and I must say, the wait was worth it. Regardless of the hours that passed by going into this refutation, your cunning is unmatched by all in the land. I can attribute the sharpness of your mind to a lego piece upon the ground; this pricked me so. Sadly, however, these comments are sadly irrelevant to the larger scheme of things.

Allow me to explain, and trust me, I'll attempt to simplify my point here.

Fereldans are dogs. Some may be cultured, pampered poodles, yet they're still in the same dog house as the Mabari who are "turnips". They are one-dimensional, transparent. You can see through their inner core as soon as you see them. Blunt as it may be, they re open books, and you may not enjoy the read. Orlesians, however, are the loveliest flowers in all the field. They are the flowers you wish to see as you wade through a garden. However, quite often, a snake is hiding beneath that exact flower. The deceptive nature of Orlesians could be attributed to the political struggle that is apparent in their society, but attributing it to superior intellect is also quite the fair argument. After all, not even a darling puppy with the sense of a turnip would approach a mutt covered in filth and blood. Simply put, baring your fangs before your prey is present is an act so brazen it's simply foolish.

Now that you know the ways of the political sphere, perhaps you would think dubiously on your direct approach... After all, a lion with a coat of gold is far more likely to survive and prosper than a lion with a coat of red. As big as their claws may be in relation to the other, majesty is superior to peasantry. I assure you, the latter will be torn apart, without a soul to hear of their mutinous imaginative equality. Their inferiority is unavoidable; no one pays worship to a rusted iron idol.

 

Edit: I'm having fun with this. 

Alas that the observation which has till now favoured your arguments, such as they were, abandons you in the matter of my gender!  But what am I saying?  Orlesian men and women are so alike, perhaps you have never noticed the difference?  Or perhaps since I speak plainly, and pay more attention to my ideas than my toilette, your poor intellect does not know how to classify me? 

 

You speak as though plain dealing were a weakness, and perhaps if you have no substance with which to follow it, it may be.  I think Maric of Fereldan showed your countrymen that this is not the case though; the direct approach serves very well, never more than against those who are obliged to spend half of each day remembering which lie they told to whom.  The advantage of not wrapping yourself in layers of pomp and splendour, is that people will believe they see the truth of you, whatever image you care to present.  I do not mind being underestimated by those who are in my sights.  Let all envy the lion with the coat of gold; let him be the target.  Let his attackers never see me coming.

 

As to your persiflage on dogs and flowers; I fear I must be brief, for my Lily is at this moment routing my tulips with nothing more than her paws, and for no better reason than boredom. 

 

I was, however, interested on your divertissement on snakes; presumably this is an analogy for the Antivan nymphs of negotiable virtue, frequently found underneath flowery Orlesian lords and ladies who pay for what they can not attract, despite their fair, if brief, splendour?  I would not have you think that I judge those who pay for pleasure; the life of a flower is so brief and fragile, particularly in the presence of dogs, that they cannot be blamed if they seek simple pleasure over substance.   What will true improvement serve them, after all, since they have but a day or two before they wane and become food for the worms?

 

Or sticks for dogs to play with ...

[Lillian]

Alas that the observation which has till now favoured your arguments, such as they were, abandons you in the matter of my gender!  But what am I saying?  Orlesian men and women are so alike, perhaps you have never noticed the difference?  Or perhaps since I speak plainly, and pay more attention to my ideas than my toilette, your poor intellect does not know how to classify me? 

 

You speak as though plain dealing were a weakness, and perhaps if you have no substance with which to follow it, it may be.  I think Maric of Fereldan showed your countrymen that this is not the case though; the direct approach serves very well, never more than against those who are obliged to spend half of each day remembering which lie they told to whom.  The advantage of not wrapping yourself in layers of pomp and splendour, is that people will believe they see the truth of you, whatever image you care to present.  I do not mind being underestimated by those who are in my sights.  Let all envy the lion with the coat of gold; let him be the target.  Let his attackers never see me coming.

 

As to your persiflage on dogs and flowers; I fear I must be brief, for my Lily is at this moment routing my tulips with nothing more than her paws, and for no better reason than boredom. 

 

I was, however, interested on your divertissement on snakes; presumably this is an analogy for the Antivan nymphs of negotiable virtue, frequently found underneath flowery Orlesian lords and ladies who pay for what they can not attract, despite their fair, if brief, splendour?  I would not have you think that I judge those who pay for pleasure; the life of a flower is so brief and fragile, particularly in the presence of dogs, that they cannot be blamed if they seek simple pleasure over substance.   What will true improvement serve them, after all, since they have but a day or two before they wane and become food for the worms?

 

Or sticks for dogs to play with ...

Alas, forgive me, for my fatigue has gotten the better of me for the day.

Good night, good night! Parting is such sweet sorrow,

That I shall say good night till it be morrow.

 

P.S. I like you. 

[wcholcombe]

You can't be a social climber without making and building connections.

True but I was meaning emotional connections.

[MWImexico]

... Simply put, baring your fangs before your prey is present is an act so brazen it's simply foolish.

Now that you know the ways of the political sphere, perhaps you would think dubiously on your direct approach... After all, a lion with a coat of gold is far more likely to survive and prosper than a lion with a coat of red. As big as their claws may be in relation to the other, majesty is superior to peasantry. I assure you, the latter will be torn apart, without a soul to hear of their mutinous imaginative equality. Their inferiority is unavoidable; no one pays worship to a rusted iron idol.

 

Edit: I'm having fun with this. 

 

...and that's basically the reason why I wondered if the too direct tone in Vivienne's letter was not the result of a miscalculation.

[Das Tentakel]

...and that's basically the reason why I wondered if the too direct tone in Vivienne's letter was not the result of a miscalculation.

 
Well: Reality check time. I think Vivienne sounds fun*, I'm pretty sure she's going to be the source of witty banter up the Wazoo. But her character, and the letter as well, are written towards the (potential) audience in a very specific way, that is to amuse them. It's not a real letter by a real politician for a real diplomat, this is entertainment, not reality or a 'show' aiming at realism.
 
If Vivienne's abrasive letter were part of a story successfully aiming at realism, that would mean she has a very abrasive personality who delights in unnecessarily verbose insults, but presumably feels safe because she has the ear of the Empress, and is thus secure - but only for the time being. Of course, that also means she would be making enemies left, right, center and back, and once she loses the Empress' favour, or the Empress dies and is succeeded by somebody else, Vivienne is in for a spectacular but entirely common and predictable fall. As in: Being arrested on (real or trumped-up) charges, a show trial and execution. It's what usually happens with favourites who (unnecessarily) have made too many powerful enemies in the long run.
 
However, this is a character in a videogame story that has to be easily understandable to a fairly broad audience, including teenagers. That means you need a somewhat outrageous character, a personality that immediately 'pops out' and can be used for purposes of easily-understood, verbose badassery and bitchiness. People that vary a lot in terms of age, education and experience need to 'get' Vivienne quickly, and that means that a more complex, subtle, believable personality (or even a suggestion of one) is probably out of the question.
 
Tip: For a hilarious look at modern diplomacy between Orla...erm, I mean France and Fer..erm, I mean Great Britain see 'Yes, Prime Minister', season 2 episode 3, 'A Diplomatic Incident'. It involves a Labrador puppy named Cocotte.
 
Oh, and Sir Humphrey Appleby would eat Vivienne for breakfast  .


* I expect she will make me chuckle a lot, regardless of what I think of her over the top dress. And that's probably the intention.

[Dr. Doctor]

Celene prefers to do thing diplomatically, but occasionally abrasiveness is necessary. Cultivating a persona of being a cold, calculating advisor who can tear you apart politically or turn you to a pile of ash with a flick of their wrist tends to make people think twice about messing with her boss.

Without the Orlesian court or the Circle though she's not really able to be Madame de Fer or First Enchanter, which are the two major things that define her. Her story arc might involve her coming to the realization that she's more than her job.

[MWImexico]

@Das Tentakel : Honestly, I think it's too soon to deduce with precision the type of personality she will have. The Orlesian society seems to work with it's own set of rules, I can't tell right now what is considered acceptable and what is not (Can we really compare Orlais with some real life country? Maybe yes. The question is : how far? ). Also the context in which the letter was written can change everything on our interprettation. I would like to give Vivienne the benefice of the doubt since, until now, the DA characters seemed all pretty coherent with the context in which they were presented.
More broadly, even if a character seems easy to understand, that doesn't necessarily mean that he/she is not deep enough or not written with sublety. There could be layers. Also, I think that some people that are gifted in the art of communication can magically transform complex ideas/ concepts into very simple and understandable themes enjoyable for a wide and diversified audience.

[Grieving Natashina]

I'm not sure if some of you guys have seen this, but I found this great gif of Vivienne in the twitter thread.

 

[Sylvianus]

I'm not sure if some of you guys have seen this, but I found this great gif of Vivienne in the twitter thread.

 

 

Love it. I am going to enjoy walking on the road with Vivienne.   ( unless she walk that way with confidence only during cinematics )

[Grieving Natashina]

Love it. I am going to enjoy walking on the road with Vivienne.   ( unless she walk that way with confidence only during cinematics )

Somehow, I don't think it's just a cinematic thing.  That seems to be apart of Vivi's nature.  I could see you rolling up a mage and doing that fierce walk.  For whatever reason, that strut reminds me of you.  

[Master Warder Z_]

Still going to mock her outfits at every given opportunity.

[Sylvianus]

Somehow, I don't think it's just a cinematic thing.  That seems to be apart of Vivi's nature.  I could see you rolling up a mage and doing that fierce walk.  For whatever reason, that strut reminds me of you.  

 

Oh ! I'm gonna blush ! Thank you ! 

[Sylvianus]

Still going to mock her outfits at every given opportunity.

 

I love this outfit ! This is my favorite so far. 

[Grieving Natashina]

Still going to mock her outfits at every given opportunity.

As much as she's fascinating, I can see myself doing the same, or at least to my monitor.  I have a more Ferelden sense of fashion personally.  I probably won't be inclined to do it too often, because Vivi works it.  Unlike, say, about half of the guests in the MotA dinner party...

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I just hope she isn't too elitist.

[Grieving Natashina]

I just hope she isn't too elitist.

I hope the same, but the more I learn about her, the more my hopes are dashed.  If it's too much for me, well...she's on Team Benchwarmer unless I want some good snark.  I haven't seen any companion be really good at being a (potentially) cruel snarker since Morrigan.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I hope the same, but the more I learn about her, the more my hopes are dashed.  If it's too much for me, well...she's on Team Benchwarmer unless I want some good snark.  I haven't seen any companion be really good at being a (potentially) cruel snarker since Morrigan.

Yeah, her letter thing made me go "And I'll want you on my team why?"