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EDI Foreshadowing


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#1
SwobyJ

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http://www.nytimes.c...ation.html?_r=2

"Many mathematicians, when pressed, admit to being Platonists. The great logician Kurt Gödel argued that mathematical concepts and ideas “form an objective reality of their own, which we cannot create or change, but only perceive and describe.” But if this is true, how do humans manage to access this hidden reality?"

"We don’t know. But one fanciful possibility is that we live in a computer simulation based on the laws of mathematics — not in what we commonly take to be the real world. According to this theory, some highly advanced computer programmer of the future has devised this simulation, and we are unknowingly part of it. Thus when we discover a mathematical truth, we are simply discovering aspects of the code that the programmer used.
This may strike you as very unlikely. But the Oxford philosopher Nick Bostrom has argued that we are more likely to be in such a simulation than not. If such simulations are possible in theory, he reasons, then eventually humans will create them — presumably many of them. If this is so, in time there will be many more simulated worlds than nonsimulated ones. Statistically speaking, therefore, we are more likely to be living in a simulated world than the real one."

"Are we prepared to take the “red pill,” as Neo did in “The Matrix,” to see the truth behind the illusion — to see “how deep the rabbit hole goes”? Perhaps not yet. The jury is still out on the simulation hypothesis. But even if it proves too far-fetched, the possibility of the Platonic nature of mathematical ideas remains — and may hold the key to understanding our own reality."

 

~~~

http://youtu.be/5qrhQVG0Suc

"Liara recently requested assistance in calculating whether the 'mass effect' is a phenomenon that only occurs on our universe, or in all possible universes. It may be that our rules of physics only occur in a finite area - a bubble if you will, in an ocean of other possibilities.
I am speculating whether... if you went far enough out, or created enough energy, you could reach a place where one plus one equaled three*. Everything would change**. All energy, all matter, all the underlying math of the universe would be unrecognizable to us. Why? What were you thinking?" -EDI

"I'll get back to you on that." -Shepard

 

*http://www.gamefaqs....fect-3/64607316
**"Sure, everything will change, but on our terms." -Shepard

 

~~~

 

So guys, what do you think Bioware's up to with the next game? :D

 

121175015.jpg



#2
katamuro

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Too much speculations.



#3
Invisible Man

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all I can say is no. no, no, no, no... well, um... no.



#4
mybudgee

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If only....



#5
DoomsdayDevice

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Nah.



#6
shodiswe

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What happens when you try to create simulations within the simulation?



#7
DoomsdayDevice

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Then you stimulate the stimulensis.



#8
Animositisomina

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What happens when you try to create simulations within the simulation?

 

Someone creates a "yo dawg" meme about it.



#9
kazumasoju

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Ya I've been thinking about this since I had this conversation



#10
SwobyJ

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Too much speculations.

 
Ze speculations!!
 
face_melt.jpg
 

all I can say is no. no, no, no, no... well, um... no.

 
Okay.
 
Just recognize that we have it (in other forms) already.
 
-Geth Consensus
-Virtual Aliens (if still canon)
-possibly contained in Reapers (more vague what 'preservation' means)

 

If only....

 
Care to explain your thoughts?
 

Nah.

 
Elaborate? :)
 

What happens when you try to create simulations within the simulation?

 
Then you better manage some more processing power.
 

Ya I've been thinking about this since I had this conversation


In what way?

 

Thanks for reading, everyone.



#11
kazumasoju

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In what way?

 

Just that it seemed like a very nice set up to the idea that there can and will be more beyond Shepard's arc. I particulary like that she mentions the bit about 1 + 1 = 3

It really conveys what I just love about Sci-fi in general, infinite possibilites & exploration ~ It subtly conveyed that Mass Effect had more stories to tell while simutaneously staying relevant to the narrative. I really liked it :3



#12
SwobyJ

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Just that it seemed like a very nice set up to the idea that there can and will be more beyond Shepard's arc. I particulary like that she mentions the bit about 1 + 1 = 3

It really conveys what I just love about Sci-fi in general, infinite possibilites & exploration ~ It subtly conveyed that Mass Effect had more stories to tell while simutaneously staying relevant to the narrative. I really liked it :3

 

Yeah I'm of two minds:

 

1)I understand that any more 'lofty' sci fi concepts can be and have been botched many times before, and I'm unsure how Bioware would handle it. So I get people going 'No, wouldn't work. Not Mass Effect.' (btw Jessica recently confirmed that it won't be 'Mass Effect 4', so at the most, it'd be 'Mass Effect: ___' but I predict more 'Mass ____'.

 

2)I'm a bit annoyed that so many want to go small scale. A story can be smaller than before while touching larger concepts. ME1 was largely exploring a few human-settled worlds but it involved stopping a giant invasion. ME:N could be still relatively smaller than ME3 (a galactic hot war) and encourage more exploration and toned down (in scale) storylines, while still introducing new parts of a much larger storyline. It's not an 'either/or', unless you think even ME1's story sucked.



#13
teh DRUMPf!!

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~~~

 

So guys, what do you think Bioware's up to with the next game? :D

 

121175015.jpg

 

 

I could see something like that, and I've stated as much elsewhere.

 

But I also worry that the fiasco with the original-endings may have scared them out of more ambitious undertakings, in favor of more generic ... stuff.

 

We shall see, though. I'm itching for more information on the next title.



#14
SwobyJ

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Yeah. At least we can measure the amount of time til' we understand what will happen in months now, instead of years.



#15
CrutchCricket

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Oh please. Haven't they ripped off the Matrix enough?

 

I could see something like that, and I've stated as much elsewhere.

 

But I also worry that the fiasco with the original-endings may have scared them out of more ambitious undertakings, in favor of more generic ... stuff.

 

We shall see, though. I'm itching for more information on the next title.

If anything, the original endings prove they're not ready for more ambitious undertakings.

 

Nothing wrong with staying in your comfort level, playing to your strengths.



#16
kazumasoju

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Yeah I'm of two minds:

 

1)I understand that any more 'lofty' sci fi concepts can be and have been botched many times before, and I'm unsure how Bioware would handle it. So I get people going 'No, wouldn't work. Not Mass Effect.' (btw Jessica recently confirmed that it won't be 'Mass Effect 4', so at the most, it'd be 'Mass Effect: ___' but I predict more 'Mass ____'.

 

2)I'm a bit annoyed that so many want to go small scale. A story can be smaller than before while touching larger concepts. ME1 was largely exploring a few human-settled worlds but it involved stopping a giant invasion. ME:N could be still relatively smaller than ME3 (a galactic hot war) and encourage more exploration and toned down (in scale) storylines, while still introducing new parts of a much larger storyline. It's not an 'either/or', unless you think even ME1's story sucked.

 

 

   Honestly, for your first part I feel there are still many stories to tell though they are waiting to be told. I really do feel like anything is possible. Maybe its hard to imagine right now though thats just because we haven't seen it happen as of yet. I mean look at the mp ~ everyone was doubting that

 

   I very much agree with you on your points. A big thing that has me excited is all the possibilities and worlds ( using the the word " worlds " loosely here ) they will be able to create with the advancement of the new consoles. Mass Effect is amazing though it is obvious, at least to myself, that there were so much more that the developers wanted to tell or more so that the world wanted to divulge. I feel personally that embarking on something new beyond the reapers is rather invigorating. For example, in Mass Effect 2 ~ there was a mission where you went to Gei Hinnom ( yes I had to look that up ) to save the last surviving quarian from a team that had been slaughtered by varren. The amazing thing about this is there was another world where other events were taking place outside of you and your team's goal. You had the choice to go there but you didn't have to. It just harkens back to the quote of 1 + 1 = 3. So many possibilities . . . and I really feel we'll be seeing alot more of that in the coming game


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#17
SwobyJ

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I think 'ripping off the Matrix' is a valid concern, given how the ending of ME3 was structured.

 

But in terms of virtual worlds, it's not really the Matrix that should be considered here, but literally several decades of science fiction which dealt with the subject of simulated universes.

 

Matrix is an inspiration, yes*, but Blade Runner is known as an inspiration for Mass Effect too, as is Star Wars, Star Trek, and likely so much else. (A screenshot of a work station at Bioware once showed a Hyperion novel)

 

I don't think we should just write things off because they appear as a 'rip off' to some. I don't think that's how fiction writing works, at least.

 

 

 

*It's already known that in the released page of writers notes for ME3, Mac has scribbled down: "End of First Matrix"



#18
General TSAR

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Yeah......no.



#19
SwobyJ

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Yeah......no.

 

Would you like to say why?

EDIT: And do you mean "Yeah... no, this isn't going to happen." or "Yeah... I don't want this to happen."?



#20
JasonShepard

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Ah, SwobyJ, I do enjoy your interpretation of Mass Effect. Don't necessarily think that's where Bioware is headed, but I do like it :)

 

Anyway, onto the topic at hand. Simulation theory. I've come across it before (and Nick Bostrom's assertion that it's more likely than not). But I don't agree.

 

For starters, Bostrom's assertion can be boiled down to "it's theoretically possible that lots of simulations could be made, therefore the weight of numbers places us inside one of them". Except he doesn't consider how likely it is that a universe simulation would ever get started. I'd say it's ridiculously unlikely that anyone would ever amass enough computing power to simulate what we perceive as the universe.

 

Secondly, it still doesn't explain why the basis reality (wherever the simulation is being run) can access the laws of mathematics. I think a far more logical explanation is that the laws of our universe include the laws of mathematics, and that we can access the laws of mathematics because we exist within our universe.

 

As for the second half of the topic - could Mass Effect go in that direction? Yes, it could, but I doubt that it will.

I'm just considering the possible routes to such a simulation:

 

Discovering that the Reapers won and that we all got uploaded into a Reaper Dreadnought would be a massive downer as much as it would be a massive twist.

 

Synthesis could go there, but I don't see Bioware canonising any ending, let alone Synthesis.

 

Discovering that we were in a simulation all the time? Since Mass Effect 1? That would place the Reapers within the simulation, suggesting something else even bigger than them... But it would also render the trilogy meaningless (in a sense) because it wasn't 'real'.

 

I do vaguely remember reading on TVTropes about a videogame that did something similar - the characters discovered that their universe was a simulation that was about to be switched off, thus killing them all. I can't remember the game though, but it don't think the twist was received very well...

 

EDIT: Ah! This one. (Linked because spoilers for... well, if I told you which game I was spoiling, that would be the spoiler. So instead - it's an RPG from 2003 for the PS2)


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#21
CronoDragoon

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Star Ocean 3, and it was not received well at all (by me or the SO fans at large).



#22
JasonShepard

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Star Ocean 3, and it was not received well at all (by me or the SO fans at large).

 

Yup, just figured that out.



#23
SwobyJ

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Discovering that the Reapers won and that we all got uploaded into a Reaper Dreadnought would be a massive downer as much as it would be a massive twist.

 

(NOTE: 'Think' = speculate, in this post, lol)

 

***Incoming reckless speculations***

 

I don't think that's what's happening.

 

I DO think that the 'final state' of things (final choice) creates copies, and picking Control keeps a version of our Shepard in this copied universe.

 

And only in Breath Destroy does some version of ourselves wake up and smell the ashes.

 

However:

1)Everyone is still on the ground. Just maybe not the same exact people we knew before.. Same with Shepard. (heh, no 'Commander' here..)

2)It's OK. No matter the option picked, the Reaper that was constructed, IS on our side. And it's not a Dreadnaught, it's a Destroyer :).

3)The relationship we have with Reapers is adversarial and for a good reason, but now it's the time to understand what they actually are, and how they preserve people, and why they keep looking for specific agents to fulfill their goals.

4)The Reaper cycle itself has still ended. It's just that in ME3, we're 'dreaming/nightmaring' an internal mental cycle of events. That's the 'indoctrination', but it's not quite what it typically appears on the outside.

 

Commander Shepard himself is done. He had a fun, awesome, action-packed journey. However, I think the sudden dark and confusing tone (they even originally were not going to have the QEC character convos etc) is put in at the end because this is the end of the road for that journey - one that may be virtual, yet still have the keys to inspiring and interacting with a whole other universe.

 

ME3 even likes to go 'back in time'.

 

Cronos - ME2 - sudden speculations by Shepard himself on whether he's real, the nature of EDI, and what TIM is after

London - ME1 - a race against time to the beam, somehow called the 'Conduit', particularly by EDI

Citadel/Crucible - ME1/ME2/ME3 - opening the Citadel, facing the child from the beginning of the game, environments like Shadow Broker base, Collector base, TIM dying like Saren with the same gun (I think), etc

 

It's because the simulation is fraying, and Shepard has to make his choice NOW, before he outright bleeds to death. This is Sovereign trying, for once, to make a deal with you, because he notices finally that the Cycle isn't going to 'work' anymore. There's other paths open, and he doesn't have the autonomy to do them on his own.

 

Pick your path, influence the ending/ME3 universe, and possibly wake up to a brand new, yet familiar, world. (If you pick Control, it'll be the Catalyst/Sovereign itself who comes down to Earth in another form, and if you pick Synthesis it would be a whole new being; not to say that Destroy would be 100% Shepard either, because it won't)

 

***end of reckless speculations***

 

 

Synthesis could go there, but I don't see Bioware canonising any ending, let alone Synthesis.

 

I think all endings are canon just like almost anything else in the series.

 

 

Discovering that we were in a simulation all the time? Since Mass Effect 1? That would place the Reapers within the simulation, suggesting something else even bigger than them... But it would also render the trilogy meaningless (in a sense) because it wasn't 'real'.

 

No, only ME3 is a simulation, as a separate title. While in rubble. As an indoctrinated cyborb noob (think CloneShep except not as bizarre as shown). Green.

ME2 is a virtual overlay/brain-understanding of events. While being a clone with a control chip, but still opposing the Reapers. Blue.

ME1 is pretty much real but a different interpretation (hint: Renegade/Paragon wouldn't be what they appear to be) - we still kill Sovereign and resist the Reapers every step of the way. Red.

 

What I'm saying is that the Reapers, (as far as the MEU has it in this idea), are real.

It's our understanding of them that isn't. They literally warp perceptions of reality around them.

It's just that over the course of the trilogy and especially ME3, we can *optionally* come to understand how and why they do it.

We can take some of that information and run with it, and it may have some positive results. Just don't expect our Shepard to make it out alive, and to bring his knowledge with him. Fight or Die.

But that doesn't mean Control or Synth are absolutely horrible. In fact, they may hold the keys to future positive results, even if more suffering happens in the present here and now.

 

I guess I mean that if someone picked Synthesis, they'd lose their Shepard (who they already tossed away anyway) entirely, and aspire for greater connection between the organic and synthetic (Catalyst was NOT lying, but using misleading language), and whatever comes next is unknown. But the universe made with the green lines and eyes.. that exists. It's just virtual. And in a Reaper that may be the last one, but represents the wishes of a person who sacrificed it all for the more primary goal of making the world a better place (like other Green characters: Thane, ME3-Legion, ME3-Mordin), not just preserved in safety (Blue), or free from oppression (Red).

 

 

I do vaguely remember reading on TVTropes about a videogame that did something similar - the characters discovered that their universe was a simulation that was about to be switched off, thus killing them all. I can't remember the game though, but it don't think the twist was received very well...

 

Star Ocean 3? Yeah, but that was Star Ocean lol. It didn't have any lead up, nothing.

 

At least ME1 has "There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own, you cannot even imagine it."

And ME2 has the greater (optional) understandings of geth/synthetic workings (each Geth hub is basically a city, btw).

 

There is at least precedent. HEck, there's more precedent for it than we have for the Crucible (only LOTSB slight hint, and ME1 wondering whether the Conduit was a weapon - also lol @ that..).

 

 

Anyway, maybe there's a reason why:

1)Wider Mass Effect is just called 'Mass' by the devs? Yeah, I know its easier to say, but so is 'M E'.

2)The devs often refer to the squadmates as henchmen? That's an almost universally negative term, not positive.

 

~~~

 

KOTOR had what I can boil down to being a much simplified and basic version of what I'm contemplating here.

 

We played a good guy, who was really a bad guy, but was brainwashed by others into possibly being a good guy. But we can choose to be more true to ourselves before the brainwashing. Or we can choose to be a better person regardless or even because of the brainwashing.

 

Mass Effect: We play a good guy (Awesome Commander Shepard), who was really a nasty guy (only War Hero background is at all 'positive' from the start), but was brainwashed by others into thinking of himself being a hero.

But we can choose to be more true to ourselves before the brainwashing in various ways (Destroy or maybe Control), or we can choose to be a 'better' person regardless, even if it costs our physical lives (Synthesis and kinda Control).

 

Soldier? Leader? Hero?

All three? Is picking Destroy still being heroic? Is picking Control still doing your job? Is picking Synthesis being a leader, or are you just making a choice without any of your allys' input agreed with?

 

With Mass Effect, EVERYTHING is a lot more subjective than KOTOR. Every major path *is* a good one in at least a significant number of peoples' views, instead of the more black/white Jedi/Sith conception.

 

It's more of a movie, and we direct the proceedings, instead of a more straightforward tabletop RP scenario.

 

So yes, I think there's a mind twist happening, but instead of more 'official IT', I think enough players would be happy with what comes out of any (at least high EMS) choice.

 

Destroy - Get 'Shepard', and continuation of more core Shepard affiliation, even if Shepard's story is over and the 'character' himself is done.

Control - New default path for new players, has more information and elaboration on what happened so that people will understand, but loses 'Shepard'. More about 'N7' than the Shepard individual.

Synthesis - Alternate RP path, has the most information and elaboration of lore, highest tech. Is more about the inspiration of heroism that 'Shepard' put onto everyone, instead of anything more physically based.



#24
SwobyJ

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-Star Ocean 3's reveal was not viewed positively at ALL. It basically took everything and smashed it.

If Bioware pulls a simulation concept, it CANNOT smash what we've done in ME1-3. It ALL has to matter, or at least the major stuff (of course).

Even if our actions, particularly in ME3, weren't 'real', they still need to make a relatively similar impact on things, and the characters we met need to be as real as people can be (as long as you consider virtual AI people as real - oh moral conflicts!).

 

But that could be why there's that whole combination of themes - memory, illusion, purgatory, afterlife, loyalty, dreams, nightmares, clones, etc.

 

It may not be "Oh that Liara we knew was never real!"

 

But more "Can we make this Liara in front of us more like the one we knew and loved (or even the exact person)? And how? And should we?" *picks dialogue wheel option*



#25
SwobyJ

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@Jason - And think you for being respectful. I know that my content here could really be viewed as headcanon, but I really do think that it's at *least* an enjoyable take on the series. And if I'm having fun and sharing that fun with others who might enjoy reading it, that's all that matters :)

 

I think also that the..just general ideas appeal to me.

 

It's like..

 

If 'Shepard' has been (progressively) virtual for a while now (especially as Paragon path), is it so absolutely wrong to go Control and fully immerse into the Reaper? If he's been in there for a little while now, can't he do some good by staying there? Blue pill? I wouldn't call it an ideal path for the person, but if it can mean that, say, a Reaper is made that more successfully kicks the asses of other (still aggressive?) Reapers, then I might roll a Shep that's all for it.

 

Like, sometimes I keep the Collector Base, and sometimes I destroy it. It's a RP thing. Yes, I know Cerberus is gunna take it and that I'll be opposing them, but the ultimate result is, at the very least, a slightly more open door to Control and a few more EMS. If Cerberus gets stuff anyway (but how?!? lol), then whatever, might as well take the spoils afterward...

Same possibly with Reapers.. if they 'win kinda sorta' anyway, might as well take the full spoils instead of a dumber BWAAAM destroyer Reaper, and kick better ass with it then I would with a Low/Vaporize/maybeHigh EMS Destroy path. Destroy in the story seems to be more centered around a 'gamble' (Silver Coast Casino) of personally surviving against all odds, so I'd wager at least a Vaporize-Low Destroy wouldn't be as effective in ways as even a Low EMS Control path, in this thread's idea.