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If it isn't good?


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#251
Splinter Cell 108

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I don't think Borderlands really counts an RPG but whatever. So you don't have a party and you don't level up the same, that's barely enough to call them incomparable. I'm not talking about mechanics, its pretty pointless to compare two games on that merit except if you want to say "this one does this combat part better than the other". It'd be like saying Spec Ops The Line is not comparable to other shooters because its a Third person shooter.  

 

Their worlds, their stories, themes and characters are not so dissimilar and even if people claim "Geralt is a set character", there is a lot you can choose about how you want him to be. The games are not just about his story, there's more than just Geralt's story, you also have the story about the world around him. There is a great deal of player choice in the Witcher as well whether you want to believe that or not. Choose Geralt's skills, choose Geralt's morality, choose Geralt's armor if you want to get technical too. 

 

Mechanics are non important, the fact that both are RPGs means that they have something in common, and yes if Borderlands were an RPG why wouldn't it be comparable too, maybe not with its story but I'm sure there will be some point of similarity somewhere. I don't know why people always come up with reasons why two very similar games cannot be compared, is it a fear that one of them will outdo the other on something?


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#252
Dean_the_Young

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He (she?) didn't say they were icompletely ncomparable: only that they weren't comparable in some ways. Given different emphasis and approaches to mechanics, storytelling, narrative focus, and developer emphasis, there are a lot of points in which comparisons would fall because they would ignore the game differences. Such as, for example, party interaction- a major focus of a Bioware RPG, not so much for the Witcher. On the other hand, Witcher 2 invested heavily in parallel Act 2's to offer mutually exclusive content as a result of choices... but Bioware's strategy and intent has never been to try that, so comparing them on those grounds is misaimed as well.

 

RPG is a broad category, so broad that even the question of 'what is an RPG' is one with almost as many answers as people answering it. When comparing RPGs it is important to recognize their style and focus, because they can be attempting entirely different styles of an RPG experience. Bethesda's Fallout: New Vegas as oppossed to Fable as opposed to DA:O.



#253
Dean_the_Young

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Bleh. Stupid typo.



#254
CybAnt1

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I think the problem is, there isn't too much to which DA:I can be compared. In the sub genre of party-based tactical SP-RPGs, where you control more than just a PC/single protag, there aren't many other choices (that eliminates Witcher and Skyrim and all MMOs). If we further limit its sub genre to one where your other party members have personalities, identities, dialogue, and interactions with the PC (bye bye goes Grimrock, Might & Magic Legacy, and all the new Icewind Dales)... well, then we hit a very short list. 

 

Like I once said, Bioware is often really the only game in town, if those are your preferences (and they are mine). 

 

I guess I might be overtly critical sometimes; I am in a weird situation, as that I guess is often biting the only hand, it seems, sometimes, willing to feed me the chow I like. 



#255
Splinter Cell 108

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He (she?) didn't say they were icompletely ncomparable: only that they weren't comparable in some ways. Given different emphasis and approaches to mechanics, storytelling, narrative focus, and developer emphasis, there are a lot of points in which comparisons would fall because they would ignore the game differences. Such as, for example, party interaction- a major focus of a Bioware RPG, not so much for the Witcher. On the other hand, Witcher 2 invested heavily in parallel Act 2's to offer mutually exclusive content as a result of choices... but Bioware's strategy and intent has never been to try that, so comparing them on those grounds is misaimed as well.

 

 

 

If we're going to see things that way, then why compare anything to BioWare games? Might as well not compare BW games with anything since pretty much every other RPG out there has some difference with it. I don't know why I'd use those standards to compare TW and DA to be honest, I'd assume most people would compare their stories, themes and player choices, not their mechanics, its what they share in common after all. 

 

The choice to kill Henselt and the choice to kill Loghain? Do those fall apart? Elven vs Human, Scoia'Tael vs the Order and the Blue Stripes? Does that fall apart? Witchers and Grey Wardens( this one may be harder, but not impossible)? I could come with many more points of comparison. I seriously don't know why people feel the need to say that a BioWare game and some other game cannot be compared because of X. I'd bet that if any other game was named, someone would have said the same. 



#256
fhs33721

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If we're going to see things that way, then why compare anything to BioWare games? Might as well not compare BW games with anything since pretty much every other RPG out there has some difference with it. I don't know why I'd use those standards to compare TW and DA to be honest, I'd assume most people would compare their stories, themes and player choices, not their mechanics, its what they share in common after all. 

 

The choice to kill Henselt and the choice to kill Loghain? Do those fall apart? Elven vs Human, Scoia'Tael vs the Order and the Blue Stripes? Does that fall apart? Witchers and Grey Wardens( this one may be harder, but not impossible)? I could come with many more points of comparison. I seriously don't know why people feel the need to say that a BioWare game and some other game cannot be compared because of X. I'd bet that if any other game was named, someone would have said the same. 

 

I agree that it is comparable. But in my opinion it is still not any better than DA2. All those things that people like to complain about in DA2 are there in the Witcher 2 as well. Lets see:

 

Dragon Age 2: "But I killed Leliana! Why is she back in DA2 Bioware? Whyyyy?"

The Witcher 2: It's been a time since I played it, but as far as I remebmber none of your choices of the first game had much inpact on anything at all. You helped the elves? Well doesn't matter they've lost anyways. You chose Shani over Triss? Well she isn't in this game. Here have some Triss instead.

DA2: "Why do I have to decide between extremist templars and mostly crazy mages? I want to just go away."

TW2: You are forced to decide between the genocidal special task-force leader and the terrorist elf. Oh joy, that is so much better

DA2: "Isabela is such a bad character because she is so sexualised. Bioware is sexist."

TW2: Meanwhile almost every female character in TW2 is sexualised and the game in general shows more gratitious nudity and sexual innuendos than all Bioware games combined (seriously did they ocasionally let the teenaged interns write some scenes?)

TW2 (unlike TW1) didn't have reused  envrioments that much though I'll give them that.

 

Now don't get me wrong I definitley love TW2 and am excited for TW3, but it isn't as superior to every other  RPG as people make it out to be. I personally even prefer DA2 slightly due to the fact that I simply like the characters more and generally prefer the setting as well.


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#257
Dean_the_Young

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If we're going to see things that way, then why compare anything to BioWare games? Might as well not compare BW games with anything since pretty much every other RPG out there has some difference with it. I don't know why I'd use those standards to compare TW and DA to be honest, I'd assume most people would compare their stories, themes and player choices, not their mechanics, its what they share in common after all. 

 

Unless, of course, they don't- in which case comparing them is misguided, and shouldn't be done. That would be a point of contrast instead- recognizing the differences, in intent and effect. None of which have any objective measure about what is better, only about what is different and then a subjective what was enjoyed by individuals.

 

Comparing entire Bioware games with other entire other RPGs as a one-to-one basis would be silly, which is why most people will pull compare specific elements that are worth putting side to side. A classic Bioware game and a typical Bethesda RPG approach the premise of telling a story and player choice in significantly different ways- measuring them by a single standard would be misleading because they aren't even pursuing the same goal.

 

 

 

 

The choice to kill Henselt and the choice to kill Loghain? Do those fall apart? Elven vs Human, Scoia'Tael vs the Order and the Blue Stripes? Does that fall apart? Witchers and Grey Wardens( this one may be harder, but not impossible)? I could come with many more points of comparison. I seriously don't know why people feel the need to say that a BioWare game and some other game cannot be compared because of X. I'd bet that if any other game was named, someone would have said the same.

 

As with analogies, no comparison is perfect- it's the degree of imperfection that makes using any standardized measure pointless and more subjective than not. Case in point: the idea of magic. Magic and mage society exists in Dragon Age, the Witcher, and Harry Potter, and all three have some superficial similarities: magic has unique abilities and is unique to a small population which is generally isolated from mundanes and have the potential for disproportionate influence.

 

But the differences between the presentation and nature of magic in those societies is so different that making comparisons between them to support an argument in one particular setting is meaningless. Magic in the Witcher doesn't have a suitable equivalent to the dangers of abominations, demonic possession, or pure mass destruction that it does in the DA universe: mages are viewed with suspicion, but not a potential existential threat. In Harry Potter, mages and magic are even less threatening. Making comparisons to one setting or another doesn't work well.



#258
EmissaryofLies

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I will wait till after release and when the price has dropped no matter what. If it is poorly received and I get the impression that it's actually bad, I won't bother buying it at all.

 

 

Despite my optimism, I will likely do the same. 

 

Or rent it first. 



#259
Heimdall

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If its bad, my faith in Bioware will finally be shaken. I doubt it though.

#260
Iakus

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If Inquisition ends up becoming Dragon Age's "Mass Effect 3", what will you do? Will you still have faith in Bioware?

 

I'm not asserting it'll be good or it won't be good, just curious.

 

As for myself, if DA:I flops as badly as ME3 did, I think by then I'd lose hope in Bioware's future installments.

 

 

If DAI goes the ME3 route, I seriously doubt I'll stick around for whatever this third IP is.  My faith is already shaken.  I'm counting on DAI to restore it, at least somewhat.

 

So far they're saying all the right things to get me interested.  But I keep waiting for a shoe to drop...



#261
cjzeddy

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I have enjoyed every single game I have played from Bioware since Baldur's Gate (if I'm not misstaken I have indeed played all their games from then until now). Sure all those games have had good things and bad things, but I have still enjoyed them all and never regretted that I bought or pre-ordered them.

I am confident I will enjoy Dragon Age Inquistion as well and I will pre-order it.



#262
karushna5

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I buy bioware games because they make the niche games I like and no one else makes. Unless they changed their formula, I would buy it. Its like when they announced ME4, we scoffed and felt it was cheap because knowing where to end is important and sounded like a big flop. "But its a bioware game" and Of course we will buy it. We might shuffle our feet to get there, but good or bad Bioware makes the games I love, and as long as they keep making games like it I'll keep buying. Same reason I played KotOR even though disliking anything star wars. That said, I dont think it will be bad, it will be amazing from what I have seen and have every hopefpr a smashing success.

#263
LarryDavid

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Even if it isn't good, I will still buy the next games as I can't imagine it being that bad to decide otherwise. I have the same thing with movies and books; once I reach the 30min mark I go through with it till the end, even if it is total crap. I even have 'friends' I don't really like but I still meet them if they fancy a pint.



#264
Roninbarista

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If Inquisition ends up becoming Dragon Age's "Mass Effect 3", what will you do? Will you still have faith in Bioware?

I'm not asserting it'll be good or it won't be good, just curious.

As for myself, if DA:I flops as badly as ME3 did, I think by then I'd lose hope in Bioware's future installments.



I'm refuse to worry about DA:I being disappointing before I get to play the game. I liked the previous Dragon Age games enough to want to play the third. I'm excited for all the possibilities that there could be. I will not lose faith in Bioware. It implies that I expect perfection.

I'm anticipating a good game and enjoying myself.

#265
Splinter Cell 108

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Unless, of course, they don't- in which case comparing them is misguided, and shouldn't be done. That would be a point of contrast instead- recognizing the differences, in intent and effect. None of which have any objective measure about what is better, only about what is different and then a subjective what was enjoyed by individuals.

 

Comparing entire Bioware games with other entire other RPGs as a one-to-one basis would be silly, which is why most people will pull compare specific elements that are worth putting side to side. A classic Bioware game and a typical Bethesda RPG approach the premise of telling a story and player choice in significantly different ways- measuring them by a single standard would be misleading because they aren't even pursuing the same goal.

 

 

Misguided in what way? I've given you plenty of ways to compare them. No, the fact is that around here comparing any BioWare game to anything else is like a sin. I've seen it so many times before that it is ridiculous. Someone tries to compare two games, and it always ends with "they're not comparable because x or y". The fact is that both have similar elements and like I said before I wouldn't compare them through their mechanics, that is pointless, they have different gameplay and thus are not alike in that way. Aside from that, they have a lot in common. Seriously why aren't they comparable? I have heard nothing that supports that, just the same old tired argument, "they don't have this in common, therefore they are not comparable". 

 

 

As with analogies, no comparison is perfect- it's the degree of imperfection that makes using any standardized measure pointless and more subjective than not. Case in point: the idea of magic. Magic and mage society exists in Dragon Age, the Witcher, and Harry Potter, and all three have some superficial similarities: magic has unique abilities and is unique to a small population which is generally isolated from mundanes and have the potential for disproportionate influence.

 

But the differences between the presentation and nature of magic in those societies is so different that making comparisons between them to support an argument in one particular setting is meaningless. Magic in the Witcher doesn't have a suitable equivalent to the dangers of abominations, demonic possession, or pure mass destruction that it does in the DA universe: mages are viewed with suspicion, but not a potential existential threat. In Harry Potter, mages and magic are even less threatening. Making comparisons to one setting or another doesn't work well.

 

And who's claiming any comparison is perfect, I only stated some points on which they could be compared. You're putting things out of perspective, in all those cases there's more than just a simple thing that brings them together, I didn't choose to exemplify them just because. 

 

Interesting you should mention magic, and more interesting that you also mention that the mages are not considered threats, especially since the person behind everything in TW1 was a mage. There are certain monsters that can only come about through magic in the Witcher, You want an equivalent to abominations? There you have it. TW2's plot revolved around mages and some of the biggest threats to the northern kingdoms were perpetuated by mages. Mass destrucion, take a look at act II, you'll see the mass destruction that a sorceress caused both in the present and the past, through both sheer destruction and through a curse. Want a place that considers mages a danger, go to Nilfgaard, talk to Letho you'll see what they think of mages. In fact all the trouble Nilfgaard went through to do what it did is very much indicative of how they view mages. 

 

Claim what you will, whatever. These games have more in common than people around here claim to admit. Trust me, when both of them get released you'll see more than one person comparing them. In fact I'm sure someone is already doing it anyway. 



#266
Ananka

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I liked ME3 (apart from the ending). If Inquisitor turns out like it, I'll be happy.

I highly doubt Inquisitor won't be good. So far there hasn't been a single BW game that I didn't (eventually, for DA2) enjoy. If it isn't, I'll just have to deal with it and find something else to play. T


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#267
Heimdall

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Interesting you should mention magic, and more interesting that you also mention that the mages are not considered threats, especially since the person behind everything in TW1 was a mage. There are certain monsters that can only come about through magic in the Witcher, You want an equivalent to abominations? There you have it. TW2's plot revolved around mages and some of the biggest threats to the northern kingdoms were perpetuated by mages. Mass destrucion, take a look at act II, you'll see the mass destruction that a sorceress caused both in the present and the past, through both sheer destruction and through a curse. Want a place that considers mages a danger, go to Nilfgaard, talk to Letho you'll see what they think of mages. In fact all the trouble Nilfgaard went through to do what it did is very much indicative of how they view mages. 
 
Claim what you will, whatever. These games have more in common than people around here claim to admit. Trust me, when both of them get released you'll see more than one person comparing them. In fact I'm sure someone is already doing it anyway.

The similarities you mention are vague to the point of being useless. That some people like the villain in TW1 are mages and are threats does not means all mages are considered threats merely by being mages. Monsters created by magic aren't the same as a Mage becoming one because they weren't cautious enough and killing their family and friends. Mass destruction by magic is far too vague to even begin to be used as a means of comparison. Nilfgaard was motivated by conquest and weakening the northern kingdoms the Lodge of Sorceresses was attempting to strengthen was in their interest. Their issue was with the Lodge, not mages in general.

#268
Allan Schumacher

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At this point I think it's safe to say that some people will consider games compariable.  Other people will see the games as having enough distinction that the comparisons are less useful based upon those differences.


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#269
Splinter Cell 108

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The similarities you mention are vague to the point of being useless. That some people like the villain in TW1 are mages and are threats does not means all mages are considered threats merely by being mages. Monsters created by magic aren't the same as a Mage becoming one because they weren't cautious enough and killing their family and friends. Mass destruction by magic is far too vague to even begin to be used as a means of comparison. Nilfgaard was motivated by conquest and weakening the northern kingdoms the Lodge of Sorceresses was attempting to strengthen was in their interest. Their issue was with the Lodge, not mages in general.

 

Vague and pointless? Funny, if you had watched one of the potential endings of the Witcher 2, you'd see how they are considered threats by everyone. In fact even in the ending that the mages don't end up being persecuted, the Kings' soldiers still rape and kill some mages. Talk to Letho, you'll see what Nilfgaard things about mages with bad habits. Nobody knows what Nilfgaard wants, the only thing that is know is that Emhyr Var Emreis wanted to put the mages at odds with the kings and to stop the Conclave from ever being created. If that isn't indicative of Nilfgaard, being hostile to magic then I don't know what is. 

 

You should check your facts, the common people in the Witcher do not like magic. There's plenty of examples in which mages are looked down upon. In fact in act III they put the Order of the Flaming Rose in charge of security, an entity dedicated to fighting monsters and dangerous magics as well as elves. Does that sound a little familiar to a certain group in Dragon Age. 

 

If you're going to call my points vague and useless, maybe you should come up with better arguments. Stop pretending that Dragon Age is unique in all its aspects, because it isn't, neither is the Witcher. 



#270
Grieving Natashina

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Can we please drop the comparison subject?  It's not going anywhere productive.  :(


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#271
Splinter Cell 108

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Can we please drop the comparison subject?  It's not going anywhere productive.   :(

 

To be honest, I didn't think it was going to get anywhere from the start. It doesn't surprise me really, already seen it happen elsewhere and it ended up being the same thing. I was a fool to have wasted my time on it anyway. 



#272
Alan Rickman

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I would be quite happy with Inquisition being comparable to ME3. You know, since it's a great game and all.


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#273
puppy maclove

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For me, DA2 & ME3 in particular, were very very disappointing games. Does that affect my opinion of Bioware, of course. I used to pre-order everything from them, now I wont  because I feel like I've been burnt. As a result, I've learnt to temper my expectations and rather wait for the game to be released and hear some reviews. Also, I'll wait for the game to go on sale. ( I have a huge backlog of games still to play, I still have arkham city sitting in my library untouched!!!!) 

 

So yes, I'm weary but It seems like Bioware is really trying hard to "redeem" themselves with DA:I.  I like what I've seen so far and I'm feeling optimistic. 

 

There are many posters on the forum, who simply state that they will buy whatever BW make because its BW... to me that's not helping anyone but each to his own.

 

Company's need to be held accountable for the quality of their products. 



#274
Paul E Dangerously

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I would be quite happy with Inquisition being comparable to ME3. You know, since it's a great game and all.

 

People can argue plotholes and ending shenanigans all they want, but ME3's by far the best game out of the series. ME1's an awkward shooter with a bit of a wonky camera angle and lots of copy-pasted levels, ME2's a better shooter but strips out too many elements and replaces copy-pasted levels with corridors filled with chest high walls, but ME3's got the best blend of ME2's shooting and ME1's RPG elements.


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#275
Navasha

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My take is that Bioware has never produced a "bad" game yet.   So I will continue to have confidence that this trend will continue.   That doesn't mean I wasn't highly disappointed by DA2 and the ending of ME3 was clearly botched.    However, the games were still "good" just not the stellar products that were expected. 

 

Bioware has a history of making such outstanding games like DA:O that it is sometimes easy to have the bar of expectations set too highly. 

 

Not saying it can't happen.   In fact, I am still dealing with the fallout of such a betrayal by another company that I thought of highly in Egosoft.    Their last game (X:Rebirth) doesn't just feel like a botched game, but an actual purposeful attempt at deception and money grab.   My opinion of them has changed 180 degrees such that I doubt I will buy or follow any future products from them.

 

I will give Bioware the benefit of the doubt that they will continue to make good to great games until such time as they actually seriously lose touch with their fans, such as Egosoft has done.