85 réponses à ce sujet

[zMataxa]

Well DA2 wasn't really dark,  while it has threatening and dark elements in its lore the game itself was pretty light hearted in many ares, perhaps due to Sarcastic!Hawke's doing.

 

If we see Ramsay Boltons, Red Weddings, and other such things I'm not sure what I will think.  On one hand I love ASoIaF, on the other, I also like DA and I don't want it to try and be something different

 

Yup DA2 was much lighter.  I appreciated the change.  Especially Sarcastic Hawke. But it looks like "Dark" is back on the table with inquisition.

 

I hope we don't see Ramsay types, but red weddings would work for me (Robb and Lady Stark weren't very politically agile)

[Steelcan]

Yup DA2 was much lighter.  I appreciated the change.  Especially Sarcastic Hawke. But it looks like "Dark" is back on the table with inquisition.

 

I hope we don't see Ramsay types, but red weddings would work for me (Robb and Lady Stark weren't very politically agile)

 

While I am all for lighter stories, ie ME2, Citadel, Undead Nightmare, etc...  DA2 also had momemnts where it tried to ahrd to be both light hearted then be all serious all of a sudden.

 

You should look at the "Rumors for DA:I thread"

[zMataxa]

While I am all for lighter stories, ie ME2, Citadel, Undead Nightmare, etc...  DA2 also had momemnts where it tried to ahrd to be both light hearted then be all serious all of a sudden.

 

You should look at the "Rumors for DA:I thread"

 

Wish I could.  But, my mind is short enough on 1/0 storage space as it is.  Plus I want to be more or less surprised.

Thanks for heads up though.

[Savber100]

I don't care about dark. 

 

I care about what's human.

 

A game that tries to be "dark" and "edgy" generally fails because they fail to realize those aren't actual things that a writer can draw from. 

 

Instead the exploration of what is human is what creates the realistic, dark drama and struggles we want in Dragon Age. It''s only in understanding human nature, can we then define what is "mature"

[Steelcan]

I don't care about dark. 

I care about what's human.

 

A game that tries to be "dark" and "edgy" generally fails because they fail to realize those aren't actual things that a writer can draw from. 

 

Instead what the exploration of what is human is what creates the realistic, dark drama and struggles we want in Dragon Age. 

 

The answer obviously being "We aren't those gorram oxmen or knife ears"

[Savber100]

The answer obviously being "We aren't those gorram oxmen or knife ears"

You've lost me.

[Thomas Andresen]

I think that they can definitely take inspiration from the Witcher series for an attempt to make the game a bit darker, but not necessarily more mature.

I was preparing myself to emphatically disagree, but the sentence didn't end quite as I expected.

I would definitely say that few video game developers does "mature" quite as well as BioWare. I would also say that "darker" doesn't automatically mean "more mature." Quite the opposite, really.

[renfrees]

Why would they take inspiration from the Witcher Series for "Dark"?

Mages, Blood magic, darkspwan, the dirtiness of race relations_____I would put Witcher2 and DA series on same footing for Dark.

Just somewhat different in "dark".

Just not Game of Thrones dark (I'm thinking Jofferey or Theon's special caretaker)

Hah, we just haven't seen Tevinter yet, with its slavery, sacrifices and decadence. I'm actually both sad and glad that we won't.

[Star fury]

A forum theory semi-confirmed. 

He forgot to change accounts. 

[DragonKingReborn]

Dragon Age certainly isn't high fantasy. You can have your main character of the story gut a prisoner in DA:O to steal his key to a chest full of low-level gear that is laughable within ten minutes. You can have the option in DA2 to sell your friend into slavery for an amount of money that is similarly laughable. And the entire premise of the story is that demons and darkspawn are real forces that actively try and enslave and murder everyone in the world they can get their hands on... and they often succeed.
 
Mature is also something I'd say is true. At least in the sense that the story elements given betray some of the darker natures of human emotion. This isn't Krull, where the hero is always good and works to save his one true love from the evil overlord. The hero must choose between weapons to combat an unspeakable evil, yet which also enslave souls in eternal servitude. It asks the player to accept or question established religion and its role in the world at large. It gives murder and assassination not just as plot points, but as considerations to be mulled over before taking actions.
 
Now... is it the darkest? Heavens to betsy, no. Is it the most mature? Certainly not. As Gaider said in a post, the writing done of both Anders and Fenris was on the verge of Twilight. So there are certainly works out there that deal with these topics more deeply and with more finese. 
 
But that's part of the rub, isn't it? For a video game to even be compared to the level of a television show, movie or even a novel is a huge accomplishment. Mostly because the writing is only one component of video game development, when in the other formats, it is one of the largest factors. To accomplish writing and storytelling that elicits emotional reaciton while also operating in the realms of game design is not an easy task. And, despite how often it is bemoaned, it is an amazing feat that only contain a handful of developers, even after decades of game creation. One could say Doom was dark and mature. That doesn't mean the writing could advance its way out of a wet paper bag.
 
 
So it is a matter of perspective. Do you hold a series up to the highest possible standards, not taking into considerations the ramifications of gameplay and design factors, which allow for choices, variations and player freedom? Or do you look at what the writing accomplishes and judge it based on that, especially when comparing it the output of its peers in the industry?

Krull mention FTW! Watched it less than a month ago with younger brother (both in our 30s). It...does not...hold up.

Like others have said, mature and dark are matters of perspective, albeit slightly more so for dark, since an argument can be made for a certain amount of finality in the definition of mature.

I think DA holds up well on both counts, without succumbing to 'this is what the game is about, aren't we all edgy?'

On the face of what little we know at the moment, I'd anticipate Inquisition upping the stakes on the 'dark' meter at the least. Not just Ferelden on the line this time.

[MrMrPendragon]

Well "dark" according to me is drama based on topics that will make a lot of people uncomfortable, like rape/sex slavery, torture, genocide, backstabbing in politics, controversy, incest, basically anything that is extremely against the society's norms. And by society, I mean the society of Dragon age.

Problem is that in writing, something is meant to be disturbing, but the game doesn't establish it thay way.

DA was never explicit in any of the topics I mentioned. I'm not saying they show a scene where people are being raped or stabbed repeatedly with gore cranked to maximum. I'm just saying that these things are way waaay behind the scenes of DA. These are the things where you just go "Oh I'm sure these things are happening somewhere in Thedas". You're not quite convinced that it's there, because you never see it, or even shown anything to make you think these themes exist.

Even the dark themes that do exist, like slavery and alienation of the elves, or blood mages sacrificing elves ---- it's all toned down.

The alienage doesn't even look like a haven for crime. In the game it looks just like any other district in the city. You don't even see the elves being brutal because of poverty, you just hear about it.

Blood mages? You don't even see the rituals performed where they show people as they were dying. All you see is a demon, with a bunch of blood on the floor, and even then the game doesn't make an effort to establish a grim atmosphere, so to you, it's just like any other encounter, and not a place of atrocities and evil rituals.

Mass slaughter? You don't even see darkspawn raiding people's houses, or being shown cutscenes where people are cornered and are killed one by one by darkspawn. There's no atmosphere of fear. You just hear "oh the town has been taken". Why should I care if the town is taken? I don't feel scared at all. When Hawke and his family were running for there lives, they could've shown people dying around them, but instead they are instead shown in the wilderness running wearing suprisingly clean clothing.

DA doesn't show any hints that would point to a conclusion where we, the players, can believe that rape is happening, or political drama and assassinations, incest between high ranking members of society, etc. The game just doesn't describe the world you are living in great detail. All it says about the world is basically: elves had magic, dwarves had the deeproads, darkspawn exist because this and this and this ------ It's mostly fantasy, and not enough conflicts that can really happen in a medieval setting, fantasy or no.

For my lack of knowledge about game titles that have a dark theme, let's just use the Witcher series as an example. This game, love it or hate it, establishes how dark the world of Witcher is. It shows mass slaughter right before your eyes. You see incest so early in the game. Some npcs even talk about rape. Basically it shows how disgusting humans can be towards there fellow human beings. And you would be surprised, but at the same time you're expecting nothing less because THAT is reality.

In dragon age, when mages talk about abusive templars, they only talk about rights and freedoms, well what about justice for the crimes already commited? They never delve deep enough and talk about how some templars might have tortured a young boy because he was just a mage, or how they probably raped a few female mages because they looked pretty, or even the other way around where some mages perform rituals on templars. It's always "they always watch us 24/7" "They kill you if they think you're a demon" " They never let us go outside" It's never topics that make you feel really disgusted about the abuse of templars, because killing is something you yourself do in the game. It doesn't bother you as much.



TLDR: The "dark" themes exist in the world of Dragon Age, but the presentation is poor, and by that I mean it's all toned down. If something is meant to be disturbing, then establish it as something disturbing by showing us, not telling us. Show us that these things happen. Do a 10 second cutscene, or hint at it through situations and dialogue.

[Ieldra]

DA doesn't show any hints that would point to a conclusion where we, the players, can believe that rape is happening, or political drama and assassinations, incest between high ranking members of society, etc. The game just doesn't describe the world you are living in great detail. All it says about the world is basically: elves had magic, dwarves had the deeproads, darkspawn exist because this and this and this ------ It's mostly fantasy, and not enough conflicts that can really happen in a medieval setting, fantasy or no.

Rape: DAO's City Elf origin; Ser Alrik. Political assassination: Arl Eamon; The Viscount's son. Oh, and the Warden (remember Zevran?). Political drama: Loghain and the Landsmeet, again, the Viscount. I'd say these things feature prominently.

In general, "mature" is a style of storytelling that does not shield you from the more unpleasant facts of life, or those people tend not to speak about for cultural reasons. In that, DA is certainly more mature than many other video game settings. Also, being graphic with the presentation of these things is not a sign of maturity. A realistic presentation is. DA could certainly do better in some aspects, but all in all it's not too bad.

[Maiden Crowe]

In general, "mature" is a style of storytelling that does not shield you from the more unpleasant facts of life, or those people tend not to speak about for cultural reasons.

 

I agree with that but it is for those reasons that the Dragon Age series fails, while Dragon Age does like to showcase some of the unpleasant aspects of life in order to give the outward appearance of "darkness and maturity" it shies away from so many others, but even among the ones it does show they are presented in such a way that betrays the truth behind such aspects making it hard to take them seriously.

[MrMrPendragon]

Rape: DAO's City Elf origin; Ser Alrik. Political assassination: Arl Eamon; The Viscount's son. Oh, and the Warden (remember Zevran?). Political drama: Loghain and the Landsmeet, again, the Viscount. I'd say these things feature prominently.In general, "mature" is a style of storytelling that does not shield you from the more unpleasant facts of life, or those people tend not to speak about for cultural reasons. In that, DA is certainly more mature than many other video game settings. Also, being graphic with the presentation of these things is not a sign of maturity. A realistic presentation is. DA could certainly do better in some aspects, but all in all it's not too bad.

Ok it's true that those examples exist, but most of them don't present the kind of "feel" they're supposed to have. I don't know maybe it's just me, but out of all the examples you listed, the city elf origin is really the only thing that stood out. And even then it was alright, because you, the character were going to rescue them anyway. It lacked the feeling of hoplessness and despair.

There's really just not enough background or context put in any of the political drama scenarios to really give an emotional impact to me. At the time Eamon was poisoned, I had no idea who Eamon was or just how big he is in the story, so there's not much drama for me there. When one is talking about political assassinations, the characters who are assasinated have to feel important to the story, not just be a character in an event that needed to happen because the plot demanded it.

I was thinking more of a Game Of Thrones feel or The Borgias, which luckily have equivalents in the Dragon Age world---- "The Grand Game" of the Orlesian Nobility. So I hope that when they do get to this, they present it with the right amount of suspense and drama.

I do agree that being graphic is not the solution to perfectly establish these themes. Again, I certainly do not expect Bioware to be graphic about some things, but being explicit about some things is needed to set the tone. Everything after that can be suggested or heavily hinted.

I'm not quite sure what you meant when you said "realistic presentation" though.

[philippe willaume]

Ok it's true that those examples exist, but most of them don't present the kind of "feel" they're supposed to have. I don't know maybe it's just me, but out of all the examples you listed, the city elf origin is really the only thing that stood out. And even then it was alright, because you, the character were going to rescue them anyway. It lacked the feeling of hoplessness and despair.

There's really just not enough background or context put in any of the political drama scenarios to really give an emotional impact to me. At the time Eamon was poisoned, I had no idea who Eamon was or just how big he is in the story, so there's not much drama for me there. When one is talking about political assassinations, the characters who are assasinated have to feel important to the story, not just be a character in an event that needed to happen because the plot demanded it.

I was thinking more of a Game Of Thrones feel or The Borgias, which luckily have equivalents in the Dragon Age world---- "The Grand Game" of the Orlesian Nobility. So I hope that when they do get to this, they present it with the right amount of suspense and drama.

I do agree that being graphic is not the solution to perfectly establish these themes. Again, I certainly do not expect Bioware to be graphic about some things, but being explicit about some things is needed to set the tone. Everything after that can be suggested or heavily hinted.

I'm not quite sure what you meant when you said "realistic presentation" though.

Wouldn't you say that it is more a difference between the setting and story the player experiences.

 

I think the setting, as in the world and it's geopolitics, is darkish, The story form the players perspective is more high fantasy where you have the option to do naughty things. 

 

I.e king of the Dwarves or how you resolve the elves story line, can be a bit unpalatable and the epilogue in DA:0 have some bittersweet or even bitter-bitter moments.

That being said i agree with you there is not really a sense of foreboding in the general story. 

 

The mature tone is kind of undermined by the "bridget jones" grade undies in the sex-scene and gratuitous EDI camel toes and Miranda arse shot type of things

 

philippe

[Ieldra]

Ok it's true that those examples exist, but most of them don't present the kind of "feel" they're supposed to have. I don't know maybe it's just me, but out of all the examples you listed, the city elf origin is really the only thing that stood out. And even then it was alright, because you, the character were going to rescue them anyway. It lacked the feeling of hoplessness and despair.

Hopelessless and despair do not define "mature". They have their place in stories, but while I do want a mature style, I can live very well with homeopathic doses of those.

There's really just not enough background or context put in any of the political drama scenarios to really give an emotional impact to me. At the time Eamon was poisoned, I had no idea who Eamon was or just how big he is in the story, so there's not much drama for me there. When one is talking about political assassinations, the characters who are assasinated have to feel important to the story, not just be a character in an event that needed to happen because the plot demanded it.

They were important to the story, you just had no personal connection to them. I can find no flaw in that. Too many stories are ruined by the expectation that everything must be personal.

I was thinking more of a Game Of Thrones feel or The Borgias, which luckily have equivalents in the Dragon Age world---- "The Grand Game" of the Orlesian Nobility. So I hope that when they do get to this, they present it with the right amount of suspense and drama.

The "Grand Game" features hopelessness and despair over inconsequentual things. I do want to see some of it, but it's more likely to invoke disgust for me.

I do agree that being graphic is not the solution to perfectly establish these themes. Again, I certainly do not expect Bioware to be graphic about some things, but being explicit about some things is needed to set the tone. Everything after that can be suggested or heavily hinted.

I'm not quite sure what you meant when you said "realistic presentation" though.

Three things: first, don't censor, but also don't focus the camera on things just to make a point. Second, deal with the real issues. For instance, showing abuses of slaves has an emotional impact, but this is actually not why we usually consider slavery bad. Which brings me to point three: don't rely on invoking emotions alone. Drama is usually counterproductive when dealing with these things. Give me a debate rather than a scene.

[EmissaryofLies]

If "dark" and "mature" in Inquisition are anything like they were in Dragon Age II or ME3, I definitely won't buy it. You don't have to lose just about every significant conflict or horribly alter the entire universe to be "dark". 

 

I simply hope that they do not overdo it. 

[CybAnt1]

Krull mention FTW! Watched it less than a month ago with younger brother (both in our 30s). It...does not...hold up.
 

 

Yeah, his whirly magic glaive gets stuck in The Beast, so how does he end up defeating it? With fiery blasts of love. Literally. I mean, that is the sappiest way to defeat an adversary. The ending sucks. 

[Ianamus]

Darkness is really just about atmosphere, in my opinion. Suspense, unease, uncertainty, fearing for the characters you like... those are the signs of a dark story, In my opinion. It doesn't have to be that anything bad happens to the characters, but obviously that will add to the above. Whether or not this applies to Dragon Age is up for debate, though I must say that few video games ever really meet this criteria, particularly in RPG's and games where you have a lot of freedom of choice, because rarely do bad things happen to characters you've had time to grow attached to without your input. It's not like watching a movie or show, where you have no control over the fate of the world at all, which automatically increases tension. 

 

"Mature" is a lot harder to place. You can take it to mean "Mature themes", but often games that include these just come across as juvenile, the completely opposite of what mature actually means. I'd consider a mature story to be one that handles complicated issues in a realistic and impactful way but again, the exact meaning of the word in regard to games is up for debate. 

[LPPrince]

Mass slaughter? You don't even see darkspawn raiding people's houses, or being shown cutscenes where people are cornered and are killed one by one by darkspawn. 

 

I'd like to make a note of this being incorrect, as we get a cutscene in Origins of the Darkspawn raiding. I can't remember where, was it Redcliffe? The scene with the darkspawn slitting a man's throat, blood flying everywhere, people running and getting shot down, etc etc.

[LPPrince]

If "dark" and "mature" in Inquisition are anything like they were in Dragon Age II or ME3, I definitely won't buy it. You don't have to lose just about every significant conflict or horribly alter the entire universe to be "dark". 

 

I simply hope that they do not overdo it. 

 

In both games they overdid it to the point of it being stupid. I hope they learned from the responses both games received.

[Sanunes]

The problem that I am seeing is there is a lot of "that is not dark for me" or "that isn't mature for me" and they might not be, but for others it is.  The other thing is that just because you don't experience those in your choices you make during the game doesn't mean those elements are not in the game, its you made the choices not to see them.

[Kroitz]

"Mature" will be the games rating and "Darkness" is what fully clothed sex-scenes fate to.

[Thomas Andresen]

I'd like to make a note of this being incorrect, as we get a cutscene in Origins of the Darkspawn raiding. I can't remember where, was it Redcliffe? The scene with the darkspawn slitting a man's throat, blood flying everywhere, people running and getting shot down, etc etc.

That would be Denerim. The cut-scene prefacing the final battle.

[LPPrince]

That would be Denerim. The cut-scene prefacing the final battle.

 

Thank you, I couldn't place it.