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Maturity and Darkness?


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#76
Allan Schumacher

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Rape. Not exactly the kind of subject you talk to toddlers about on their birthdays. Its something usually discussed between adults. As an adult, you've had some time to experience many different things, those things imparting sense, knowledge, and the wisdom capable of discussing a topic like that. So rape, as a subject matter, can be seen as naturally a "mature" subject.

 

I think that's reasonable enough.  Although since the topic itself need not be portrayed in any sort of mature fashion, I think it's more of a reflection that the topic is dark rather than innately mature.  (Philosophical aside: if the topic was innately mature, could it be presented in an immature way?)  In this sense, yeah a degree of maturity is required to process a topic, but I think that's more just how a developed person is able to process and understand uncomfortable things.

 

 

Things like sex, violence, and so forth are rated for older audiences because there's a degree of being able to understand what you are experiencing is fiction, as well as an understanding that the behaviours that are occurring violate a society's norms/mores.  A movie like Predator isn't really a mature movie (though I do enjoy it as it is fun).  It has lots of shocking imagery, however, that could frighten a child however.  In that sense, I'll go "OOOHHHH!!!" when Carl Weathers gets his arm shot off and I can go "heh heh heh, that was awesome."  But it's not really mature, even though the movie is rated mature.  I'm just capable of recognizing that it's fantasy and am at a point where the imagery doesn't actually cause things like nightmares and so forth.

 

 

In terms of wanting to consume mature content, however, a movie like Shawshank Redemption doesn't explicitly show Andy getting raped like say, American History X.  Both are well done movies and showing dark scenes can work for invoking a sense of empathy with the character, but Shawshank is a very mature movie and not slighted in the least because Andy's fights with the sister's are mostly off camera.


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#77
Splinter Cell 108

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If by mature, people believe that rape, sex, torture, etc, is what I mean then they are mistaken. By mature I mean realism, more seriousness in the world. This is why I put Spec Ops the Line as an example and not another game. That game has no sex or rape (and if it does, I didn't see it) and it manages to be both dark, realistic(in the sense that war isn't a game), and mature. 

 

I'm not asking for sex and/or rape and that has been one of the things that I personally dislike when people start claiming that it is "mature". Sure those things can fit into the equation if done right, but I don't feel the need to have it to make a game mature, nor was I implying that if that's what it sounded like. I'm referring to stuff like politcal intrigues, the medieval world and its many problems, soldiers abusing their power and positions, etc. Did DA:O have this? Yes, but I just don't get the vibes from it, at least not in any way in which I have experienced it with other games. I'm not asking for it to be like in other games, all I'm saying is that Dragon Age in general could use more of it, in my opinion it makes for better immersion and the world feels more natural and alive. 



#78
LPPrince

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I think that's reasonable enough.  Although since the topic itself need not be portrayed in any sort of mature fashion, I think it's more of a reflection that the topic is dark rather than innately mature.  (Philosophical aside: if the topic was innately mature, could it be presented in an immature way?)  In this sense, yeah a degree of maturity is required to process a topic, but I think that's more just how a developed person is able to process and understand uncomfortable things.

 

 

Things like sex, violence, and so forth are rated for older audiences because there's a degree of being able to understand what you are experiencing is fiction, as well as an understanding that the behaviours that are occurring violate a society's norms/mores.  A movie like Predator isn't really a mature movie (though I do enjoy it as it is fun).  It has lots of shocking imagery, however, that could frighten a child however.  In that sense, I'll go "OOOHHHH!!!" when Carl Weathers gets his arm shot off and I can go "heh heh heh, that was awesome."  But it's not really mature, even though the movie is rated mature.  I'm just capable of recognizing that it's fantasy and am at a point where the imagery doesn't actually cause things like nightmares and so forth.

 

 

In terms of wanting to consume mature content, however, a movie like Shawshank Redemption doesn't explicitly show Andy getting raped like say, American History X.  Both are well done movies and showing dark scenes can work for invoking a sense of empathy with the character, but Shawshank is a very mature movie and not slighted in the least because Andy's fights with the sister's are mostly off camera.

 

Yeah, its very complicated. Even mature subjects can be handled immaturely and treated in a lesser fashion than they should be.

 

I think thats why some(and I heavily emphasize SOME, given what I'm about to say) fans are a little baffled behind the hiding of nudity in DA. Some thinking there's nothing wrong with nudity and it shouldn't be covered up as it has been in the past two games. Others would just say they want nudie bits because nudie bits. But, the point stands- does the whole uncovered body need to be shown? Does showing more make it more mature? Does torture need to be seen to be accepted? Is its straight depiction more mature than a heavy reference?

 

Interesting how people differ on the subjects. Mature subjects and the way they are conversed about and depicted can definitely be mature and immature depending on many many factors. Makes using words like "darkness" and "maturity" sound a bit silly at times.



#79
Splinter Cell 108

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Torture? Shown to make it mature? Not really necessary, its the way that it is handled that bothers me. Take that noble's son in DA:O that you find in Howe's dungeons. He certainly doesn't look like he suffered much, does he? Apparently not, since he was still strong enough to run away. That is what I'm referring to when I say I want realism, you can't really expect that guy to be fine and dandy when you find him now do you? 

 

I'm not expecting it to be a whole plot depicting mental health issues or the bad things behind torture, just more realism and seriousness about it. 



#80
Maiden Crowe

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Dragon age has sex, alcohol, death, torture, suicide, rape, kidnapping, slavery, war... what more do you want?

 

It is not the mere inclusion of such elements that makes a game mature or dark but their portrayal, I mean you can scream "sex, alcohol, death, torture, suicide, rape, kidnapping, slavery, war" at the top of your lungs however unless they are portrayed in a believable manner they just come off as childish and immature like a child trying to show off how mature they are by swearing or smoking.

 

I could give you an example from the Witcher 2 but then I suspect most of you would have a temper tantrum at being reminded how inferior the Dragon Age series is so instead I will use an example from another Bioware game, Mass Effect 2. If you want to see a good example of how to portray a character who has been raped and mistreated all her life then look no further than Jack.


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#81
Maiden Crowe

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What exactly these things mean depends on which game we speak of.

 

In DA:O it ment pretty dark and elaborate plot. Not everybody who deserved happy ending got one. Not every NPC exsisted solely to make sure player feels his character is COOL and AWESOME and WANTED.

 

Are you being sarcastic?



#82
Master Warder Z_

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Are you being sarcastic?

 

...I'd assume so.



#83
MrMrPendragon

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Torture? Shown to make it mature? Not really necessary, its the way that it is handled that bothers me. Take that noble's son in DA:O that you find in Howe's dungeons. He certainly doesn't look like he suffered much, does he? Apparently not, since he was still strong enough to run away. That is what I'm referring to when I say I want realism, you can't really expect that guy to be fine and dandy when you find him now do you?

I'm not expecting it to be a whole plot depicting mental health issues or the bad things behind torture, just more realism and seriousness about it.

Yeah. I agree with the whole tortured noble thing. I think there are some improvements to be made so that we actually feel shocked, even if we don't see the atrocities happening on the screen.

To clarify what I said in my earlier posts, I don't actually need to see anything disturbing happen. In real life, I haven't seen anyone being raped, tortured, or murdered brutally, but I do feel uneasy when hearing about these things. Dragon Age has these "dark and mature" things in its world, it just needs to be presented better so it becomes something shocking rather than be seen as just "another event"

Again, maybe we all react differently to these things, and that some of us may think that the way all these themes were presented in Origins and 2 were good enough, while others such as myself feel like improvements can be made.

#84
Rotward

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It is not the mere inclusion of such elements that makes a game mature or dark but their portrayal, I mean you can scream "sex, alcohol, death, torture, suicide, rape, kidnapping, slavery, war" at the top of your lungs however unless they are portrayed in a believable manner they just come off as childish and immature like a child trying to show off how mature they are by swearing or smoking.

 

I could give you an example from the Witcher 2 but then I suspect most of you would have a temper tantrum at being reminded how inferior the Dragon Age series is so instead I will use an example from another Bioware game, Mass Effect 2. If you want to see a good example of how to portray a character who has been raped and mistreated all her life then look no further than Jack.

Try harder, troll. 



#85
Splinter Cell 108

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Try harder, troll. 

 

You're proving his point, you know. 



#86
Das Tentakel

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In my view, DA is ‘slightly darkish’ and ‘occasionally tries to be mature’. Which is more than most videogames can claim.

I’m with those who consider ‘maturity’ in storytelling to lie in realism (not literal realism per se, but credibility in terms of behavior and motivation) and complexity. Complexity meaning the intricate web of various actors, motives, events and relationships that exist (or would credibly exist) in the context of the story. This is, of course, as far as the medium allows. For instance, a complex historical situation may be condensed and simplified in a historical novel, when compared to a major study about the same subject. A  (high-quality) TV series based on the book may have to simplify things even more, and in the case of a movie that gets even worse.

In that sense I totally agree with Alan that ‘mature’ does not have to be ‘dark’. You could have, for instance, a story centered on dynastic politics or a diplomatic mission or a voyage of discovery with little or no rape, torture etc., but which is highly complex and fairly 'realistic'.
 
Apart from the whole question of how to define ‘dark fantasy’ (see Is Dragon Age Inquisition dark fantasy?), I personally would describe as ‘dark’ events and situations that, from a modern western perspective, are morally beyond the pale. Deadly violence between combatants in war, while they may be depicted in a graphic manner, is not really dark. Consensual homosexual acts, on the other hand, would not be a problem (let alone ‘dark’) in the perspective of liberal westerners, but their not-so-liberal neighbours and relatives might disagree; our great-grandparents would be horrified, and their great-grandparents would find it right and proper that homosexuals were publicly executed. The depiction of consensual sex (out of lust, love or for payment) is also quite divisive; I sure hope nobody thinks this to be ‘dark’ but given my nationality (Dutch) I may not be representative in this regard. At least everybody will agree about things like torture, rape and genocide (I hope…).
Any ‘darkness’ in terms of violence (rape, genocide, torture etc.) can be both graphic in nature and mature provided it makes sense in the context of the story that is being told. A movie about an inquisitorial investigation (like Ken Russell's 'The Devils') would not be what it is without the scenes of judicial torture to which Urbain Grandier is subjected. On the other hand, a movie about the inquisition solely showing pretty girls being violated…well, let’s just say the maturity of the movie in question would be more than a little suspect.
The same with movies that deal with particularly horrific aspects of World War II. The more shocking scenes from Schindler’s List or Andrzej Wajda’s Katyn (about a notorious Soviet mass murder of Polish POW's) have a very explicit purpose, and while they may ‘shock’, shock itself is not the point. Rather, driving the point of what happened home, ‘de-clinicalizing’ what might conceivably have been kept offscreen. It’s not the only way you can do this – the 1984 German movie Die Wannsee Konferenz'  (the same event, a secret conference about the implementation of the 'Final Solution', was also the basis of the movie ‘Conspiracy’) totally delivers on the dark and horrific without a single drop of blood – but doing this well depends on using the right combination of context and narrative techniques.
On the other hand, ' Ilsa, she-wolf of the SS’, while also showing horrible scenes of violence in the same general context…is not so ‘mature’. The setting is merely an excuse for an exploitation movie featuring nudity, not-so-consensual sex and sadistic torture.

A lot of fantasy, somewhat unthinkingly in my opinion, simply presents situations and conflicts that, ‘realistically’ would not just have been really, really horrible, but would have been witnessed by the player characters first-hand, but this is stuff that is mostly kept from the player. At best, you see a few ‘lite’ scenes with a bit of blood (not real nudity, God forbid!), mostly copied from similar (but often better) scenes from popular movies. They are flirting with potentially ‘dark’ subjects but are unable or unwilling to commit to bringing this actually to life within the game, visually or not.
Take DA:O. The Blight basically means extermination for the entire population of Ferelden and the ecological destruction of the land itself. The heroes travel through Ferelden, but rarely see anything of it, except for the occasional (in terms of impact very ‘clean’) couple of corpses or a sacked town.
 In DA2, Kirkwall was depressing, but this had less to do with the dire circumstances of Ferelden refugees, local Elves or the Mages, and everything with excruciatingly boring and repetitive visuals. You never really got a feel for the desperate conditions of the poor, the elves, the refugees etc. There’s a bit of it, but generally rather clinical-looking and not really convincing in any way.
 
Both games did have moustache-twirling villains (even if they were not major NPC’s, with the exception of Howe) though, moronic and / or insane antagonists, silly sex scenes, Whedonesque comedic banter and bloodsplatters up the Wazoo and brown (darkish brown in DA:O, tan brown in DA2), oh so much brown. But then, as so many games (and quite a few movies and tv series) have proven time and again, brown is dark AND real.
 
LowLevelAntagonists.jpg
 

And you know what? That is quite alright and I don’t mind it too much. I have other places where I can get my ‘dark and mature’ fix.

 

motivator5368274.jpg

 

But it also means that, if the DA games are intended as ' dark' and 'mature'  they don't get anywhere near to succeeding in it.


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