140 réponses à ce sujet

[ChowMan]

Hello Everyone,

 

So I was talking to my cousin one day about Mass Effect and we ended up talking siding with the Geth in ME3. She told me she didn't side with the Geth because she thought they were enemies from the start and that she didn't trust them. Now, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, so I respected her decision. However, I pondered about it the next day and I wanted to ask you all on your thoughts.

 

For me, I sided with the Geth because I liked Legion and I think they had a rich history of how they were mistreated and such. I am totally on their page for those reasons. However… I realized that when I had to choose to side with the Geth or Quarians… In order to side with the Geth, I am giving them permission to upload Reaper tech? Now, I haven't played ME3 for a while and I don't remember if there was an explanation, but uploading Reaper tech into the system… isn't that a BAD IDEA?? What was Legion's explanation again on how it would be "safe"? 

 

Also, I read how some ppl indicated that machines can't be indoctrinated… What is the story on the "Heretics"? From what I recall, Legion explained how they are Geth infected with a "virus". Isn't that another way of saying they have been compromised? In other words, Indoctrinated?

 

Hope someone can help clear some of these things up for me. By the way… totally not used to the new set up of the Bioware forums…need some getting used to...

 

Thanks

[Invisible Man]

to the best of my recollection, legion doesn't give an explanation as to why the reaper upgrades are safe. I can only assume that the upgrades and the reaper control signal aren't related, though that seems to be in opposition to what I or perhaps we assume from the earlier missions in the geth war. mainly the geth dreadnaught, and the kill the geth servers missions, and also the pre/post mission convo as well. so, I guess my answer is that the upgrades are safe... just because.

[N0rke]

You're getting a bit mixed up on the lore of the Heretics. The virus didn't infect the Heretics, it was created by the Heretics so that the Geth would come to the same conclusion that they did about the Old Machines. The Heretics left because they did not agree with Geth and they all came to the Consensus that splitting off was the right option.

 

Indoctrination warps the mind so that the Reapers can control it, the virus the Heretics attempted to use would simply alter the way the Geth's systems ran so they would come to the conclusion that worshiping the Old Machines was the right thing to do. The Geth being just a complicated network of computers means making their programming change so that they see another outcome as the right one doesn't equate to brain washing as the Geth themselves had yet to achieve self-actualization. It's kind of like if you change the setting on your computer, you're not brain washing it so much as you're altering it's perspective.

[Invisible Man]

@N0rke

is that directed at me or the op? I'm guessing the op as I didn't say anything about a virus. though, the op could be referring to the reaper-code that is scattered throughout the geth servers, I think legion did call it a virus, though I'm not sure. I've played this game 18 times and for some reason I can't recall it directly, think I'm blocking it out?

 

 

---edit

also, legion started to refer to the geth under reaper control in me3 as the heretics iirc.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 iirc, Legion's immunity from Reaper control is because the code was designed for the regular geth, while Legion's platform is more complex and thus outside their influence. Legion then tries to upgrade the geth after the Rannoch Destroyer is defeated, but he cannot do it without disseminating his own unique "personality" to them first. I'm fairly certain that's how the Reaper-code is made safe for them to use.

 

If there's anything Legion should be chewed out for, it's assuming the right to free those Geth Primes without warning.

[N0rke]

@N0rke

is that directed at me or the op? I'm guessing the op as I didn't say anything about a virus. though, the op could be referring to the reaper-code that is scattered throughout the geth servers, I think legion did call it a virus, though I'm not sure. I've played this game 18 time and for some reason I can't recall it directly, think I'm blocking it out?

 

 

---edit

also as I recall, legion started to refer to the geth under reaper control in me3 the heretics iirc.

 

Was in response to OP in regards to this part of the post:

 

Also, I read how some ppl indicated that machines can't be indoctrinated… What is the story on the "Heretics"? From what I recall, Legion explained how they are Geth infected with a "virus". Isn't that another way of saying they have been compromised? In other words, Indoctrinated?

[kazumasoju]

The reason behind the geth desiring the reaper code was because they would become fully self aware individuals and also ~ I went for peace :3

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I see Legion's upload of the code to the geth as "Legion's Sacrifice" for the sins of the Geth against organics. It's that mysticism creeping into the story again. Thus it makes it "good" and "paragon." if you reject that sacrifice and choose the quarians it makes you feel evil and renegade. Patrick Weekes wrote the story to be decidedly one sided in favor of the Geth. You were supposed to see the quarians as a bunch of racists. It didn't work with me. I shot Legion three times on my first play in Mar 2012. I caught Legion in a lie, and I didn't buy the excuse about showing the Quarians in suits, even though I (the player) knew it was Bioware's artistic laziness. Shepard, the character, didn't buy it and sided with the Quarians. I thought the plot was very poorly written.

[katamuro]

I kinda saved them both I guess. the problem with geth is that they are more or less software with the difference of opinion based on maths and not on actual issue. It doesnt matter if they think something is good or bad because for them its simply math and has no such emotions. Only as I understand with prolonged activity in one platform geth start to get a personality. Also the reaper upgrade was what would have given them the ability to discern between good and bad, have emotions not just relegated to 0/1 problem. Saving both is the best outcome and I stand by it.

[von uber]

So what is the explanation for the geth following saren in me1?
Were all those heretics? Bloody lot of them if so.

[JasonShepard]

So what is the explanation for the geth following saren in me1?
Were all those heretics? Bloody lot of them if so.

 

Not necessarily a lot of Geth, just a lot of platforms. You might have been fighting the same set of Heretic Geth over and over again - they just kept re-uploading into different platforms to attack again.

 

Of course, that does mean they have a decent production line somewhere.

 

EDIT:

 

At the OP - Legion has the Reaper Upgrades throughout his appearance in ME3. And yet, despite plenty of opportunities to stab Shepard in the back, he remains trustworthy and actively works against the Reapers' best interests. He is walking proof that the Reaper Upgrades can be used safely. If he says that he can safely disseminate them to the entire Consensus, I believe him.

[General TSAR]

They're all Heretics as far as I'm concerned.

 

 

Death to Heretic Toasters!

[von uber]

Or Legion is biding its time to get shepard to help it without destroying it to enable the geth to aid the reapers in their galactic harvesting mission.
You never know..

[katamuro]

Or Legion is biding its time to get shepard to help it without destroying it to enable the geth to aid the reapers in their galactic harvesting mission.
You never know..

 

Well we actually do know, we have played through different options and we know that nothing like that actually happens. 

[von uber]

Only because you have to kill him before his evil plan comes to fruition. ..

[JasonShepard]

Or Legion is biding its time to get shepard to help it without destroying it to enable the geth to aid the reapers in their galactic harvesting mission.
You never know..

 

To achieve what, exactly?

 

If Legion wanted Shepard dead, he could have left the Commander on that Geth Dreadnought while the Quarians blew him up. He could have hacked Shepard in cyber-space. He could have let the Reaper crush Shepard rather than providing an escape vehicle.

 

And if supposedly-Reaper-controlled-Legion wants the Geth to secretly remain under Reaper Control - why reveal that the Reaper signal wasn't stopped when the Dreadnought was blown up? Heck - why let the Dreadnought even get blown up? Remember that it was Legion that dropped the shields and weapons on that thing. Why guide Shepard to attacking and blowing up a Reaper - freeing the Geth from Reaper Control - if Legion actually wanted the Geth to remain under Reaper Control?

 

Legion's actions do not correspond to those of someone secretly under the control of the Reapers. By the time that he is uploading the Reaper code, we are well past the point that a "Surprise, he's actually working for the Reapers!" twist wouldn't cause numerous plot-holes.

[SwobyJ]

So what is the explanation for the geth following saren in me1?
Were all those heretics? Bloody lot of them if so.

 

It was a lot out of a lot.

 

Each normal geth platform holds 100+ of actual 'geth programs'.

 

Each hub holds up to millions of programs.

 

The Heretic station may hold up to billions, I'm not sure.

 

If they could have organic emotions (like Legion imo clearly was heading towards), they would despair at all the death that Shepard brought.

 

Using the upgrade turns each geth platform into more like a Reaper - as in, it lets all the programs within the platform work much, much, much better, allowing greater intelligence without requiring networking to the consensus.

 

+ to overall intelligence

+ to overall networking capability

- to necessitating networking in order to make decisions and be smarter

- to innate connection between geth programs, being less reliant on consensus may encourage divergence of opinion more

 

Each platform then becomes more of an individual in itself, but instead of becoming more 'organic', they become more 'transsynthetic', letting them greater understand organics but losing the more core synthetic perception they had previously.

 

Something 'Blue with parts of Green and a limited understanding of Red' (I like colors..)

...becomes more 'Green with parts of Blue and a greater understanding of Red'.

 

It's up to the player whether they find this acceptable, especially considering the means that it took to get there (deception, changing every geth, great danger and vulnerabilities that just already happened in front of us (the hacking of geth)).

[Sir DeLoria]

The Geth can't be trusted, Legion proves that numerous times by not telling you about is plans. The Quarians are already your sworn allies and Tali did a hell of a lot more for Shep than useless Legion.

Peace or dead toasters. I prefer dead toasters.

[Jagri]

They all deserve to be scraped for what they did to Richard L. Jenkins. Never was there a more loved character then Jenkins and his death shouldn't be forgotten.

[Farangbaa]

The Geth can't be trusted, Legion proves that numerous times by not telling you about is plans. The Quarians are already your sworn allies and Tali did a hell of a lot more for Shep than useless Legion.

Peace or dead toasters. I prefer dead toasters.

 

The Quarians are much more trustworthy. Shooting at you while you're in a Geth ship. Going to war with the Geth in the first place while the Reapers are destroying everything.

 

Trying to commit genocide for asking if it has a soul.

 

But noo, lets blame the robot who isn't perfectly honest while surrounded by those cute Quarians that want to kill it.

 

Fantastic people, those Quarians.

[katamuro]

Both parties have their bad and good points. like in real life the issues are more complex than simply black and white. There is a huge grey area there.

[Sir DeLoria]

The Quarians are much more trustworthy. Shooting at you while you're in a Geth ship. Going to war with the Geth in the first place while the Reapers are destroying everything.
 
Trying to commit genocide for asking if it has a soul.
 
But noo, lets blame the robot who isn't perfectly honest while surrounded by those cute Quarians that want to kill it.
 
Fantastic people, those Quarians.

There's a major factor you completely ignore here, the Quarians are individuals. Gerrel is an a**hole, of course it was wrong of him to endanger the life of Shep and Tali and he should be made responsible. However, all the other 17 million+ Quarians had nothing to do with that. The same goes for the Morning War, the government decided to be hostile towards the Geth. Geth on the other hand operate on a consensus based mind, like a hive mind. The actions of one are the actions of all.

Besides, the Quarians have perfect reason to despise the Geth, after all they commited genocide, destroyed Quarian culture and killed millions of innocent civilians. Of course that little fact from ME1 is completely brushed over in ME3. Because the lampheads are so pure and innocent.

[DoomsdayDevice]

@ OP: I share your concerns.

 

On my first playthrough (without From Ashes), I made peace between the Quarians and the Geth.

 

But on my second playthrough I started thinking. Right before the Geth and Quarian missions, Javik tells you this story about the Zha'til. The Zha couldn't live on their homeworld anymore, and so they upgraded themselves with AI implants. The Reapers then took control of both the AI and the bodies of the Zha, transforming them into synthetic monsters.

 

There seems to be an intentional parallel with the Quarians here. They have already lost their homeworld and need to adapt themselves with suits to their environment. If you make peace, the Geth will start uploading themselves into the Quarian suits to help boost their immune systems. And yeah, the Geth now have Reaper code.

 

The way I see it, if you allow the Geth to upload the Reaper code, you're repeating the mistake of previous cycles. (And ironically, all in the name of peace. This is a thing the Reapers exploit - as EDI says)

 

I could easily see how, if there was ever a sequel to ME3, the Quarians would start using implants to help boost their immune systems even more. At this point, the Reapers could exploit a weakness in the Reaper code (or hell, the Reaper code could even "evolve" - remember how Legion shows you the code, calling it a "growth"?), and take control of the Geth AI, and the bodies of the Quarians, transforming the Quarians/Geth into some kind of new Reaper fusion, like the Collectors, or Cannibals (humans mixed with Batarians), Marauders, etcetera.

 

In that case, the Rannoch situation would pan out like this.

 

Side with Quarians > Geth die, and Quarians eventually die because they can't adapt enough to their environments without the Geth, lose 2 allies

Side with Geth > Quarians die, and Geth will be taken over by Reapers, lose 2 allies, gain one enemy (type)

Make peace > Both Quarians and Geth fall under Reaper control, lose 2 allies, gain one enemy (type)

[Farangbaa]

There's a major factor you completely ignore here, the Quarians are individuals. Gerrel is an a**hole, of course it was wrong of him to endanger the life of Shep and Tali and he should be made responsible. However, all the other 17 million+ Quarians had nothing to do with that. The same goes for the Morning War, the government decided to be hostile towards the Geth. Geth on the other hand operate on a consensus based mind, like a hive mind. The actions of one are the actions of all.

Besides, the Quarians have perfect reason to despise the Geth, after all they commited genocide, destroyed Quarian culture and killed millions of innocent civilians. Of course that little fact from ME1 is completely brushed over in ME3. Because the lampheads are so pure and innocent.

 

That major factor is eradicated after the Reaper Upgrade.

 

And, please: 'Ok, we have every right to hate you, Geth. Because after we tried to kill you all, you tried to kill us! You big bad meanies!' The Quarians should be gratefull the Geth didn't hunt them down to extinction.

 

And stop trying to make it look like you can only side with the geth in ME3. In ME1, in the first conversation with Tali on the Normandy, you can already tell her the Quarians are wrong. Something I've pretty much always done, even before ME2 was even released.

 

 

I could easily see how, if there was ever a sequel to ME3, the Quarians would start using implants to help boost their immune systems even more. At this point, the Reapers could exploit a weakness in the Reaper code (or hell, the Reaper code could even "evolve" - remember how Legion shows you the code, calling it a "growth"?), and take control of the Geth AI, and the bodies of the Quarians, transforming the Quarians/Geth into some kind of new Reaper fusion, like the Collectors, or Cannibals (humans mixed with Batarians), Marauders, etcetera.

 

In that case, the Rannoch situation would pan out like this.

 

Side with Quarians > Geth die, and Quarians eventually die because they can't adapt enough to their environments without the Geth, lose 2 allies

Side with Geth > Quarians die, and Geth will be taken over by Reapers, lose 2 allies, gain one enemy (type)

Make peace > Both Quarians and Geth fall under Reaper control, lose 2 allies, gain one enemy (type)

 

I hate to tell you this, but the Reapers aren't the enemy anymore after ME3. They are either dead, under your control or very happy.

 

 

Btw: if those stupid Quarians hadn't decided to try to commit genocide on the Geth, then, and only then, we'd have something to say against the Catalyst. But the Quarians did exactly as the Catalyst has seen millions of times before, and the Leviathan saw before it.

[DoomsdayDevice]

I hate to tell you this, but the Reapers aren't the enemy anymore after ME3. They are either dead, under your control or very happy.

 

"Did that all really happen?"