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[ChowMan]

Very interesting posts everyone. It's nice to hear all the different comments and point of views of everyone. I forgot to quote, but someone posted something about what Javik said about a past species implementing "tech" into their bodies. Eventually, they got "controlled". I never downloaded that DLC… still wondering if I should, but that's for a different topic. Anyway, that did get me thinking of whether the Geth will ever get "controlled".

 

I guess I forgot to mention that this is a case where I am assuming that maybe the indoctrination theory is true I guess. I'm not saying it is right, but I guess I was thinking in that mind set when I asked the question. For those of you who mentions that the "Reapers are dead, controlled, or synthesized" in their post, I guess that question would not apply because the Geth would be "dead, as they were, or synthesized" in this case. Not saying the "face value" ending is wrong, I really do not know at this point. Funny how I never really chose a side all these years. I think the IT has very strong points, but it sucks that Bioware never acknowledged it… BUUUUT , let's remain on topic.

 

Anyways, I would would choose peace for both if given the choice, it just feels right to offer a win for both sides. However, I'm just wondering if the Geth are ever… "bad" in this sense. I am aware that the game is told in a way that gives the Geth a leg up in being the good guys. They were treated inhumanely from the start ever since they started to question their existence. I'm not going to deny, that really sucks and unfair for the Geth. However… I am just thinking how Legion was "dishonest" during the mission and also offered to upload Reaper tech… something we should always steer away from. I just wonder if this is enough evidence to say "… wow Geth…. this is too far… I don't know if I can side with this". I'm not sure if I'm repeating what I'm asking in different words, but thought I'd give an update. Sorry for not replying after this has reached 4 pages… been busy. But I'll keep checking if this topic should keep growing. Been a great read everyone =)

[Iamjdr]

Anyways, I would would choose peace for both if given the choice, it just feels right to offer a win for both sides. However, I'm just wondering if the Geth are ever… "bad" in this sense. I am aware that the game is told in a way that gives the Geth a leg up in being the good guys. They were treated inhumanely from the start ever since they started to question their existence. I'm not going to deny, that really sucks and unfair for the Geth. However… I am just thinking how Legion was "dishonest" during the mission and also offered to upload Reaper tech… something we should always steer away from. I just wonder if this is enough evidence to say "… wow Geth…. this is too far… I don't know if I can side with this"

I think peace is a no brainer if you have the option. But if say im doing a run where I don't have the option for an easy out and I'd have to choose, I'd always side with the quarians.

Tho the quarians are on the offensive they are honest of there intentions the whole time, even when they are blasting the Geth dreadnought with shep still on it. And not only that but many of the quarians don't even wish to fight the Geth but know it must be done.

I mean as far as anyone that isn't shep or his crew knows, the Geth have only ever been hostile and were A.)The reapers main and only real allies last time they arrived and B.) they needed there homeworld to offload civilians before taking all there ships to aid in a galactic war.

Now legion knows how bad the geths PR had been in the last few centuries, but all he chooses to do through the entire rannoch arc is lie and manipulate the only person who he absolutely needs trust him because his entire race hangs on the line. Shep is the only one with any capacity to help them and one of the very few that even cares about the Geth surviving the ordeal but legion doesn't give him anything to go on.

Then there's the consensus which shows all those poor poor Geth dying, but not even a single Geth is shown killing anything in that mission. Even once that "agricultural unit" picked up a sniper rifle (one the quarians could never even use I might add) it didn't show him use it. legion just says it " it saved other Geth units" but it's perfectly fine showing quarians hurting geth and the few of the Quarian resisters there were. Then after that legion wants me to basically condem one of the few squad mates that sticks with shep through all three games entire people so it can upload every single Geth with reaper code that I honestly know nothing about.... It felt like udina showing the VS the doctored video of shep killing the salarian councilor...something just seems off (atleast that's how I felt through my many playthroughs of me3 /end rant lol)

[shodiswe]

For 300 years the Geth had been waiting for a Quarian "Consensus" to end the war.

 

Koris asked Legion what it would take to make peace, and that was pretty much is, the Geth needed to know that the Quarians desired peace.

When Shepard convinced the Quarians to stop fiering while they were at a temporary advantage and they accepted it, it was interpreted by Legion and the Geth as a Quarian Consensus for peace, the first time that happend in 300 years.

 

If the Quarians had tried that before billions of their people had died, then they might have saved themselves from a lot of suffering. The Geth had found it imporant that that there was or at least had been a few Quarians that desired peace, but they needed them to form a decision that they as a people wanted peace.

 

It was all about the Quarians, ever since the beginning.

 

On the otherhand, the Geth could have tried more.... Ofcourse, after continualy gettign shot I can see the futility of any atempts to communicate, they had already told the Quarians they desired alternate solutions and peace, and that they wanted to live. The Quarians rejected it and decided to fight to the last man, woman and child.

300 years later Shepard provides a chance for them to possibly make peace, if they agree to it.

[Iamjdr]

For 300 years the Geth had been waiting for a Quarian "Consensus" to end the war.

Only problem with that is peace is almost never that simple. Yeah just drop your guns and we will be friends, promise we won't stab you in the back ...besides in those 300 years the Geth havnt been exactly peaceful towards anyone else either, so what would make people think they wanted to be? As far as the galaxy can tell, since the Geth became "aware" they have massacre almost the entire race that created them, aided the galaxies fiercest enemy and basically just caused trouble wherever they saw fit. And if legion is never woken up then it is possible to never see a single friendly Geth in the entire trilogy.

[Invisible Man]

after the quarians tried to exterminate the geth... do you really expect the geth to think that other organic races would do any differently? if the race that created them couldn't accept them, why would anyone else have?

[Iamjdr]

after the quarians tried to exterminate the geth... do you really expect the geth to think that other organic races would do any differently? if the race that created them couldn't accept them, why would anyone else have?

But that would be something they need to go and find out wouldn't it? You know what they say about assuming....and honestly You will never learn much of anything if you don't go out and find out for yourself. But Instead of trying to do anything even remotely peaceful, they just lock down the Perseus veil and let the heretics run rampant on the galaxy. And then wonder why everyone hates them. How are the Geth supposed to be viewed as anything but out of control AI, if they don't even make an effort to show themselves to be anything but a bunch of skynet killbots?

[Invisible Man]

the council banned AI research sometime before the geth uprising (can't recall when atm). that to me seems to show that organics (or those supporting the citadel council) do take a non-friendly attitude towards synthetic lifeforms. and the geth were monitoring galactic communications (as we've heard in me2), so maybe they decided that what they did know of organics seemed to support the assumption that organic life will be unfriendly. you can't simply say they acted blindly, just as I can't say they didn't; because the information isn't there on either side, as far as I know.   

 

---edit again

I think this discussion also relates to how each of us defines life, or life forms.

personally, I feel if something is truly sentient, it's alive; it doesn't matter what it's made out of.

[Iamjdr]

But the Geth are basically immortal per the me1 codex. Why not just send out a peace envoy, what harm would it have brought them? And yes ofcourse during me2 the Geth would not be hearing very many nice things about them on any communications seeing as how they seemingly just attacked the citidel with Saren, also Sovereign was said to be a Geth flagship by the council to quell rumors of the reapers. I don't really think that the Geth being alive or sentient or whatever really matters. The quarians are most definitely alive and sentient but legion and the Geth VI don't seem to mind killing them..and mind you the quarians actually have civilians. So saying you can't kill the Geth because they are alive is kinda of a weak argument in my opinion.

[Invisible Man]

I was referring to the discussion in this thread in its entirety, not just our little back and forward. how we view the geth also seems to dictate how we do or don't justify the geth's actions, and the extent of our feelings in that regard. that's what I was saying in my edit. or trying to, at least

---multi edits

[Iamjdr]

Ah okay, well I'm still unsure if I agree because I personally feel like the Geth are alive or atleast close enough . But for me from an rp and inuniverse stand point I don't feel they give very compelling evidence to prove that there lives are more valuable then the quarians which they will willingly slaughter to live.

Especially when said life or sentience or whatever you want to call it, is achieved by reaper code that we know little to nothing about.

[Invisible Man]

Ah okay, well I'm still unsure if I agree because I personally feel like the Geth are alive or atleast close enough . But for me from an rp and inuniverse stand point I don't feel they give very compelling evidence to prove that there lives are more valuable then the quarians which they will willingly slaughter to live.

you could say the same about the quarians too. good post, btw.

[Iamjdr]

you could say the same about the quarians too. good post, btw.

Thank you, it's been quite a pleasant exchange and yes I can see what you mean. The only real difference is the Geth work as a whole "we are all Geth" were the quarians are each individual people. So to judge the Geth you would do so as a whole where as with the quarians it would be much more difficult to judge because they each have very different views.

[Invisible Man]

Thank you, it's been quite a pleasant exchange and yes I can see what you mean. The only real difference is the Geth work as a whole "we are all Geth" were the quarians are each individual people. So to judge the Geth you would do so as a whole where as with the quarians it would be much more difficult to judge because they each have very different views.

ditto. it's been fun.

---edit
I might have an odd view of things, mainly because I dabbled in Shinto Buddhism when I was younger, I'm agnostic more or less now, but it still left it's mark.

[Iamjdr]

ditto. it's been fun.

---edit
I might have an odd view of things, mainly because I dabbled in Shinto Buddhism when I was younger, I'm agnostic more or less now, but it still left it's mark.

Well honestly I think more people side with the Geth, but I also feel that's mostly due to the quarian admirals acting like aholes and the Geth consensus mission.although peace is always the best option anyways cause I love both the Geth and the quarians, but I am gonna say I really wish there was a way to make peace minus the reaper code. I feel like that's the only thing that really bothered me about that arc. I mean I'm all for yelling at the quarian admirals to stand down cause they were definatly getting a little crazy on me for a while, but the Geth kinda lost who they where with that and I was a bit saddened by it.

Edit
And ofcourse the price of destroying the reapers is the Geth die anyways. Which is super lame but ill do what must be done and a retcon I'll be hoping for come the next mass effect lol. That is if they carry over anything.

[Invisible Man]

Well honestly I think more people side with the Geth, but I also feel that's mostly due to the quarian admirals acting like aholes and the Geth consensus mission.although peace is always the best option anyways cause I love both the Geth and the quarians, but I am gonna say I really wish there was a way to make peace minus the reaper code. I feel like that's the only thing that really bothered me about that arc. I mean I'm all for yelling at the quarian admirals to stand down cause they were definatly getting a little crazy on me for a while, but the Geth kinda lost who they where with that and I was a bit saddened by it.

I can't argue with that. I'm in complete agreement there. think i'll call it a night on the forum, it shouldn't take me 3 edits to make my posts clear.

[Iamjdr]

I can't argue with that. I'm in complete agreement there. think i'll call it a night on the forum, it shouldn't take me 3 edits to make my posts clear.

Haha alrighty, good chat catcha later!

[Baalzie]

The Geth can't be trusted, Legion proves that numerous times by not telling you about is plans. The Quarians are already your sworn allies and Tali did a hell of a lot more for Shep than useless Legion.

Peace or dead toasters. I prefer dead toasters.

Humans can't be trusted, the Illusive man proved that from the word "go"(As did 75% of Cerberus and Udina etc). Turians can't be trusted, Saren proved that from the first minute in the first game. Asari can't be trusted, the beacon hidden on Thessia despite their OWN rules against it proved it beyond ALL doubts. Volus can't be trusted, Din Korlack proved that when he turned traitor. Hanar can't be trusted Zymandis proved that when he tried to kill his own homeworld. Salarians can't be trusted, their dalatrass proved that over and over again. The Quarians can't be trusted, Prazza proved that by the mutiny against Tali. So did Han'Gerrel when he bombarded the Geth Dreadnought with both Tali (an amiral) and Shepard still onboard.
Shall I continue?
It's proven beyond all doubt that the Geth are the MOST trustworthy of all races. NONE of his lies were an act of treason that endangered Shepard at all.  All the other species had MUCH more dangerous lies.

So your point is way beyond invalid.

[Sir DeLoria]

Humans can't be trusted, the Illusive man proved that from the word "go"(As did 75% of Cerberus and Udina etc). Turians can't be trusted, Saren proved that from the first minute in the first game. Asari can't be trusted, the beacon hidden on Thessia despite their OWN rules against it proved it beyond ALL doubts. Volus can't be trusted, Din Korlack proved that when he turned traitor. Hanar can't be trusted Zymandis proved that when he tried to kill his own homeworld. Salarians can't be trusted, their dalatrass proved that over and over again. The Quarians can't be trusted, Prazza proved that by the mutiny against Tali. So did Han'Gerrel when he bombarded the Geth Dreadnought with both Tali (an amiral) and Shepard still onboard.
Shall I continue?
It's proven beyond all doubt that the Geth are the MOST trustworthy of all races. NONE of his lies were an act of treason that endangered Shepard at all.  All the other species had MUCH more dangerous lies.
So your point is way beyond invalid.

Geth have a type of hive mind, thus the crimes of one are the crimes of all. Needless to say, that this isn't the case for organics.

The Geth also try to kill you more often than anyone else in the series and no, the Geth on Haestrom, the Alarei and the attacked alliance ship aren't Heretics. The Geth are also responsible for letting the Heretics willingly loose on the galaxy in the first place.

[shodiswe]

It's funny that people are still saying the Geth has a hivemind... Tali even tells you they don't in ME1.

 

The networking they are doing has nothing to do with congitive processes or sharing of that type of data or experiences. They are merely sharing hardware processing power.

 

Then they communicate with eachother and put forward different ideas, then they decide which is the most popular and then everyone accepts it, calling it a Consensus.

 

Kind of like a highspeed democracy where the partisipants agrees to yield to the most popular option. The Heretics were the first Geth not to agree to submit to the most popular opinion. Making a different evaluation of the situation and sticking with it. Resulting in their need to leave the true Geth.

 

The Geth were alive before the Reaper code. But a single Geth platform alone had problems forming cognitive tohughts due to a lackign of sufficient processing power and data.

 

What the Reapercode apparently did was upgrade the Geth drivers increasing their processing power without the need for a hardwareupgrade. Like a superpowered driver update.

 

Like how you can update your Nvida drivers if yougot an Nvidia gfx card on your PC. This could change your performance from 5 frames/second to 30.

 

Just imagine how much the Reapers would have upgraded their drivers over that past billion years compared to the Geth's 300 years of existance.

What Legion did was, removal of malicious spyware and malware from the Reaper code. Then he created an updated reverseengineered code that was safe for him. His reasoning being, look at me, I'm safe and in control of myself, therefor the upgrade is safe for my people.

 

It's sad that the people who only played ME3 were so limited in their options and couldn't make peace unless they bought special DLC's to create a special pre ME3 settign where it's possible. Did the later Genesis DLC thing make peace possible? I never needed it since I had my own savefiles. On the otherhand, it makes sense that you should benefit from making an effort in-game.

 

Almost all advanced technology in the Mass effect universe originates from the Reapers. It was part of their way of controling the evolving civilisations and it also speed up the process to search for a solution(according to the Catalyst and reapers we talk to).

 

Gun's = Reaper provided tech.

Ships = Reaper provided tech

Shields = Reaper provided tech.

Biotic knowledge = Reaper provided tech passed down in data modules from earlier civilisations.

Relays = Reaper built tech

FTL drives = Reaper tech.

Citadel = Catalyst home and a place where it gathers information on it's latest test subjects before the harvest.

FTL communication = Reaper tech.

Colonisation avenues and availability is determined by the limitations of provided reapertech and the locations of the Relays.

Omnitools, likely based on Reaper tech.

 

Given that list it looks like you would have to kill every lifeform known to the current galactic civilisation to purge all of existance from reapertech and Reaper manipulation.

[Iamjdr]

It's funny that people are still saying the Geth has a hivemind... Tali even tells you they don't in ME1.

The networking they are doing has nothing to do with congitive processes or sharing of that type of data or experiences. They are merely sharing hardware processing power.

Then they communicate with eachother and put forward different ideas, then they decide which is the most popular and then everyone accepts it, calling it a Consensus.

Kind of like a highspeed democracy where the partisipants agrees to yield to the most popular option.

i think the reason people still think it is a hive mind would be because it still feels very similar to one. Also we have never really encountered any species that works similar besides one with a hive mind. seeing as the entire population can come to a unified conclusion in an incredibly short amount of time. An there definitely has at least never been a democracy that has ever worked so efficiently to be even close to comparable, in my opinion.

And yes many of those things were originated by the reapers, and we also now know most of those things actually were left by them as a trap to stagnate the universe into the cycles, to be more easily harvested. So wouldn't it be a simple conclusion to say the reaper code is probably some form of trap also? At the very least we've had little to no sufficient evidence to prove otherwise.

For me what It boils down to is, your in the middle of a galactic war with a highly advanced race of hybrid synthetic organic beings. It doesn't seem like a good idea to upload the entirety of the Geth, your potential allies and one of the larger fleets in the galaxy with unknown enemy tech and just sit back and hope for the best. Also I'm not a hundred percent on this but Isn't the entire concensus mission spent removing that same reaper code from the geth systems that legion wants to reupload later to all the Geth?

[Invisible Man]

i think the reason people still think it is a hive mind would be because it still feels very similar to one. Also we have never really encountered any species that works similar besides one with a hive mind. seeing as the entire population can come to a unified conclusion in an incredibly short amount of time. An there definitely has at least never been a democracy that has ever worked so efficiently to be even close to comparable, in my opinion.

And yes many of those things were originated by the reapers, and we also now know most of those things actually were left by them as a trap to stagnate the universe into the cycles, to be more easily harvested. So wouldn't it be a simple conclusion to say the reaper code is probably some form of trap also? At the very least we've had little to no sufficient evidence to prove otherwise.

For me what It boils down to is, your in the middle of a galactic war with a highly advanced race of hybrid synthetic organic beings. It doesn't seem like a good idea to upload the entirety of the Geth, your potential allies and one of the larger fleets in the galaxy with unknown enemy tech and just sit back and hope for the best. Also I'm not a hundred percent on this but Isn't the entire concensus mission spent removing that same reaper code from the geth systems that legion wants to reupload later to all the Geth?

I'm not 100% sure about that last paragraph you wrote.
I think it's possible that the reaper upgrades themselves aren't related to the reaper control signal, which is what was controlling the geth, I think. or at least that's a plausible theory I guess. it's possible the reaper upgrades were just a mechanism for the reapers to make the geth more effective, and perhaps it was created as an afterthought and given to the geth to counter the quarian "flash bangs".

[shodiswe]

What you helped Legion remove was the Reaper control code. The traps, Legion was free of those already and the code he had processed and was using seemed to allow him to operate freely... I'm guessing that's why Legions was shackled, the Reapers didn't like the idea of a "free geth" running around with their upgrades.

 

The galaxy is using reaper tech and they are trying to aquire new reapertech for their own use. It should come as no surprise that a synthetic race would find something they could salvage from the Reapers.

 

It's interesting how Legion and the Geth happens to have equipment from Operation Overlord, that allows Legion to throw Shepard into the Geth server and kill the Reaper code. According to Legion it would work because the reapers wouldn't be used to fighting an organic inteligence inside cyberspace, Shepard was too alien.

 

Like Invisble man said, the Geth were offered the upgrades, knowing it contained malware and spyware that would allow the Reapers to control them.... But at the same time they knew that it might be the only way for them to stop and fight the Quarians ethnic cleansing.

 

I can't remember if it took the Geth weeks or how much time it was until they grew desperate enough. The Geth first tried to work out a solution of their own but eventualy they realised they had run out of time. The new technology the Quarians had aquired to fight the Geth was simply too advanced, it was more advanced and unfamiliar than anything the Quarian scientists or Tali had ever seen. Where ever it came from.

 

At the same time, the upgrades did allow the Geth to increase their efficiency at fighting the Reapers.

 

Will the Reaper upgrades stagnate Geth society by providing them programming code that's way beyond their technology level? Hard to say, it depends on their understanding of it. It's still possible the Geth can advance in other ways. The upgrades didn't change their basic personality programming, or replace them with Reapers. Therefor, they can expand on thier culture as a society and individuals.

 

What might be the hardest sociological transition for the Geth might be the realisation that they don't have to stay in geth space or in a group to operate at peak efficiency. They no longer have to worry about degenerating to an animal level of intellect if they suddenly find themselves alone or separated from their kin.

 

This would open up the Geth to go where every they want. It would for example open them up as characters, like squadmates, protagonists, mercenaries, lone traders or merchants. Explorers. Before the upgrade the lore said they pretty much had to operate as a group of individuals and bring enough hardware with them to allow the needed processing power for sentience. With the exception of Legion.

Which also explains how we can play as Geth in multiplayer, the upgrades now allows for geth to join non-Geth squadrons for missions without any negative impact and fight along side other allies agaisnt the Reapers. It might have been seen as a needed change to make Geth more accessible in the Mass Effect universe.

 

The alternative route would have been to say that the Geth improved their programming as the dysoncloud was completed and they managed to figureout how to overcome their limitations. BW choose reaper upgrades, just like the galaxy has become dependant on Reaper upgrades.

One of the reasons Legion didn't like the Reapers offer in ME2 was that they required the Geth to become Reaper slaves if they were to share or harvest the Geth.

[Jukaga]

You should try making this analogy to a Taliban. Because that's exactly what happened to them.

 

What happened here with the Geth and Quarians is as follows:

 

The Quarians tried to kill all the Geth. ALL. The Geth killed a lot of Quarians in response, but didn't even try to kill them all. 'yeah, but that's just what the Geth tell you, man, it's a lie!!" Yeah, and that the Quarians tell you the Geth tried to kill them all is.. just that, them telling you it was so. Difference here is that it's a fact the Quarians tried to kill all Geth. Yet for some reason, you think they get to be the one who're allowed to hate. While they, without a doubt, threw the first stone.

 

And I said this before: the Quarians are the reason the Catalyst is right, whether you broker peace or not. The decision of the Quarians to kill all Geth is what makes the Catalyst's logic right. 

Disturbed that you equate homicidal para-sentient robots with people. The Geth were VIs gone amok, and their owner/creators tried to shut them down. Are you arguing that they couldn't turn off their property if it was malfunctioning?

[DeinonSlayer]

Debating whether I want to step into this...