140 réponses à ce sujet

[DeinonSlayer]

I really, really don't, but I suspect I will eventually if this keeps up. The cycle cannot be broken.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

My opinion on the Geth is that I find the Quarians more at fault than I do for them, plus I see more utility in the war effort than the Quarians. I figure they'll be more helpful to my aims than the Quarians. The heretic Geth were disposed of when I unleashed a virus empowering the mainline Geth.  Reaper tech is dangerous, but not inherently damning. Provided you take enough precautionary measures, you can utilize Reaper Tech successfully and decisively. Post-war, there is going to be a renaissance in technology as the destroyed Reapers remains are scoured and researched by the reformed Cerberus.

[justafan]

I really, really don't, but I suspect I will eventually if this keeps up. The cycle cannot be broken.
 

 

It is unavoidable.  Give in to your anger, let the hate flow through you.

 

 

It'll be like the good old times when there were threads like this every other day.  As for the topic, the Geth made their choice, they deemed enslavement better than the good of the galaxy.  I don't trust them not to make the same choice again.  I'll give them one chance, but if push comes to shove, I'll side with the species with a giant fleet that has never even conceived of siding with the reapers.

[DeinonSlayer]

My opinion on the Geth is that I find the Quarians more at fault than I do for them, plus I see more utility in the war effort than the Quarians. I figure they'll be more helpful to my aims than the Quarians. The heretic Geth were disposed of when I unleashed a virus empowering the mainline Geth. Reaper tech is dangerous, but not inherently damning. Provided you take enough precautionary measures, you can utilize Reaper Tech successfully and decisively. Post-war, there is going to be a renaissance in technology as the destroyed Reapers remains are scoured and researched by the reformed Cerberus.

Fair enough. I see great utility in the Geth as a fighting force, and great utility in the Migrant Fleet for logistics, with little overlap. Hackett requested the latter. More to the point, in weighing the actions of both sides both now and over the last three centuries (no, EDI, it's not racism), I see the Quarians as far more trustworthy than the Geth, and I'd trust that Reaper code about as far as I can thrown Heretic Station.

I don't want to kill the Geth, but if forced to choose I'd side with the Quarians every time. You've seen my re-imagined Rannoch campaign (not sure if you saw my revision of the existing story); the ideal solution in my book is peace without Reaper code.

EDIT: Funny, justafan. Very funny. I'm hoping to avoid being dragged into another prolonged debate, but I fear it's a losing battle.

[Reorte]

Fair enough. I see great utility in the Geth as a fighting force, and great utility in the Migrant Fleet for logistics, with little overlap. Hackett requested the latter. More to the point, in weighing the actions of both sides both now and over the last three centuries (no, EDI, it's not racism), I see the Quarians as far more trustworthy than the Geth, and I'd trust that Reaper code about as far as I can thrown Heretic Station.

In some ways I feel you can trust the geth more, if you believe what they're saying at all. Talk to any of the quarian admirals and you'll get a different reply, and that's before you consider the entire rest of the species, a lot of whom probably don't agree with any of them. At least with the geth you're getting a good estimate as to what the geth as a whole want to say, and it's more appropriate to treat them as a whole.

 

Does EDI say it's racism? I had a playthrough where the geth died but don't remember the details (although I do recall her not being happy). It might be racism but without knowing the exact motives of the player it's impossible to say. Certainly some Shepards might've just been glad at an opportunity for killing off a bunch of synthetics, for others it might've been a situation where there's no good choice but one has to be made.

[DeinonSlayer]

If you side with the Quarians (I shot the Geth VI - spends the entire arc lying to me, remorseless about siding with the reapers, casually announced its intent to exterminate the Quarians etc.) EDI pouts that I'd save Jeff over her if made to choose, that organics instinctively "side with the familiar."

No, EDI. I judged them on account of what they've done. Being a victim of discrimination doesn't give someone a free pass on their actions.

[DeinonSlayer]

I'd save Joker over EDI.
 
 
DGAF

Eh. Between the two, EDI is the one who hasn't got me killed.

[justafan]

I'd save Joker over EDI.

 

 

DGAF

Even though I'd save the Quarians, I'd probably save EDI.  I would want to save both, but since neither has ever given me any reason not to trust them, EDI is simply more useful, so I'd save her.  Though, you really can't lose EDI without losing the Normandy, so there's that too.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

If you side with the Quarians (I shot the Geth VI - spends the entire arc lying to me, remorseless about siding with the reapers, casually announced its intent to exterminate the Quarians etc.) EDI pouts that I'd save Jeff over her if made to choose, that organics instinctively "side with the familiar."

No, EDI. I judged them on account of what they've done. Being a victim of discrimination doesn't give someone a free pass on their actions.

 

In your perspective. I don't care what someone's actions are as long as they're useful. I'm fully willing to let a genocidal mass murderer off scott-free if he has a good enough reason for it. Even then, I don't feel as if he's done anything ontologically wrong. Then again, I'm the guy that questions the very nature of justice. I'd only punish him insofar as to prevent his actions from occurring again, not so much out of anger at what he's done.

 

The Geth are more useful than the Quarians imo. By bounds and leaps. I wouldn't care if it was the Geth that started the war and killed millions of Quarian children as they slept. I'd save them in a heartbeat over the Quarians since it furthers my cause more than saving the Quarians would.

 

That said, I do believe the Geth had a reasonable enough excuse to pardon what they did. In fact, if it wasn't for the fact I needed them in the war as well, I'd probably consider the extinction of the Quarians a favor to the universe.

[Iamjdr]

Edit stupid phone*

[Iamjdr]

The Geth are more useful than the Quarians imo. By bounds and leaps. I wouldn't care if it was the Geth that started the war and killed millions of Quarian children as they slept. I'd save them in a heartbeat over the Quarians since it furthers my cause more than saving the Quarians would.

That said, I do believe the Geth had a reasonable enough excuse to pardon what they did. In fact, if it wasn't for the fact I needed them in the war as well, I'd probably consider the extinction of the Quarians a favor to the universe.

A favor In what way? And excuse enough to pardon the morning war? or joining the reapers? And how is it that people can be so worried about the Geth being alive or sentient and this being a reason for not killing them, but are perfectly willing to massacre an entire race of clearly sentient beings without a second thought.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

A favor In what way? And excuse enough to pardon the morning war? or joining the reapers? And how is it that people can be so worried about the Geth being alive or sentient and this being a reason for not killing them, but are perfectly willing to massacre an entire race of clearly sentient beings without a second thought.

 

Yep. To avoid a really long, drawn out conflict on the issue that has been accomplished ad infinitum, I'm just going to say that no matter how I look at it, the Geth are the preferable choice.

 

If I look at the Geth and Quarians as alive and sentient, I see that the Quarians were the ones who violently attacked the Geth, and even did so maliciously to their own people who tried to keep a voice of reason and not escalate the conflict. All consequent actions I hold to be Geth wariness and paranoia that isn't actually all that unjust considering the response from other groups doing the same thing. As well, considering how you view the Geth, there are far, far, far more Geth individuals than Quarians. Right there, I'm going to put a priority to the number of lives I can save. And 17 million Quarians do not balance well with billions of Geth. 

 

On the other hand, if I look at the Geth and Quarians on a dispassionate, detached, utilitarian perspective, I see the Geth as having the better military capability by far, and I see the potential for their military hardware to be used in the same vein as logistic and transport equipment as the Quarians. I honestly don't understand this big schpeel about the Quarians having some massive logistical capability over the Geth. I can see both as being tools to be wielded, but if push comes to shove, I think the Geth can do exactly what the Quarians can do. I can't say the same about the Quarians.

 

As for their joining the Reapers, the Geth didn't plan on doing so. I hate that they did, but I blame the Quarians for their reckless impatience than I do on Geth maliciousness. I can't blame the Geth for their actions. It was die, or become a slave and then die.

[Iamjdr]

In some ways I feel you can trust the geth more, if you believe what they're saying at all. Talk to any of the quarian admirals and you'll get a different reply, and that's before you consider the entire rest of the species, a lot of whom probably don't agree with any of them. At least with the geth you're getting a good estimate as to what the geth as a whole want to say, and it's more appropriate to treat them as a whole.
.

I think that's exactly why I feel that the Geth arnt trustworthy tho. If It's appropriate to treat them as one, and legion/Geth vi spends the entirety of the rannoch arc not telling the whole truth, plus the memories in the consensus that is presented as some sort of proof of innocence. If they truly felt innocent why not just show me everything and let me decide for myself?

As far as I'm concerned anything your not showing me I'm goin to assume is because it is something you don't want me to see,or that you think it will sway my opinion. This is there one chance to just lay everything out on the table and say " yeah the quarians we're aholes but we messed up to" but instead they just tryin run with the first part and hope you don't wonder about the rest.l So basically if I can't even trust the only completely nonhostile Geth in known existence to tell me the truth when it matters most. How am I honestly supposed to trust the rest of them?

And yes each Quarian is different with different opinions and none of them are afraid to hide it. You can't pick out a single Quarian or a group and blame them for the misdeeds of there ancestors or there people for that matter, they are all individuals. So dooming an entire people cause of 4 Quarian admirals that you don't like is kinda silly. It's not like they will be in charge forever anyways.

[Invisible Man]

as for the timing of the quarian attacks, the only logic I see behind attacking the geth during a reaper war, is that the rest of the galaxy is to focused on the reapers to notice the geth quarian conflict. now, an admiral or two in me2 stated needing a planet to safeguard their civilians, though flinging your entire population into the geth conflict doesn't seem to be wise at all, and even seems to counter that particular concern.

[Reorte]

as for the timing of the quarian attacks, the only logic I see behind attacking the geth during a reaper war, is that the rest of the galaxy is to focused on the reapers to notice the geth quarian conflict. now, an admiral or two in me2 stated needing a planet to safeguard their civilians, though flinging your entire population into the geth conflict doesn't seem to be wise at all, and even seem to counter that particular concern.

They seemed to be succesfully kicking the crap out of the geth until the Reapers showed up. A gamble that failed, but not a completely insane one.

[Invisible Man]

They seemed to be succesfully kicking the crap out of the geth until the Reapers showed up. A gamble that failed, but not a completely insane one.

my point was if the tech works why not wait till after the war? and why involve the entire civilian fleet?

[Iamjdr]

I don't understand what elevates the Geth above being held accountable for there actions in the past 300 years. Being "pushed" to doing terrible things doesn't excuse those actions, and if they are truly sentient then there is no reason not to hold them accountable for the things they have done. And they knew joining the reapers wouldn't end well for them but they did it anyway, all while preparing rannoch for the return of the creators... Makes sense right. Plus The only information you have supporting the Geth you receive from a single Geth unit with around 1000geth programs inside. If There are close to a billion Geth and an unknown amount of them are heretics that's like a drop of water in an ocean. So everything that you know to be true about the Geth is from the words of very very tiny portion of the Geth population. Legion is cool, but that's all that the Geth honestly have goin for them. Seems to be enough for some tho

[Reorte]

my point was if the tech works why not wait till after the war? and why involve the entire civilian fleet?

The completel involvement of the civilian fleet seems dubious at best.

 

As for not waiting until after the war I'd say it's because the quarians were too vulnerable to the war, what with their fleet aging. It also relied on the rest of the galaxy, major repair facilities and so on. If most of those were damaged or destroyed then they would be in big trouble, and even worse if they lost a liveship or two.

[Reorte]

I don't understand what elevates the Geth above being held accountable for there actions in the past 300 years. Being "pushed" to doing terrible things doesn't excuse those actions, and if they are truly sentient then there is no reason not to hold them accountable for the things they have done. And they knew joining the reapers wouldn't end well for them but they did it anyway, all while preparing rannoch for the return of the creators... Makes sense right. Plus The only information you have supporting the Geth you receive from a single Geth unit with around 1000geth programs inside. If There are close to a billion Geth and an unknown amount of them are heretics that's like a drop of water in an ocean. So everything that you know to be true about the Geth is from the words of very very tiny portion of the Geth population. Legion is cool, but that's all that the Geth honestly have goin for them. Seems to be enough for some tho

What the geth actually are is constantly changing, far more than people change with time - they'll be fundamentally reprogramming themselves all the time so can't meaningfully be said to be the same entity or entities that they were 300 years ago, even if they've got the same memories. Whether they're different enough not not sensibly be held accountable now for anything they did then is probably unknowable.

[AlexMBrennan]

Now, I haven't played ME3 for a while and I don't remember if there was an explanation, but uploading Reaper tech into the system… isn't that a BAD IDEA?? What was Legion's explanation again on how it would be "safe"?

The explanation is simply: Without Reaper tech upgrades the quarians will slaughter the geth, and the quarians don't give a damn about that silly human. 

 

As such, allowing the geth to upload the Reaper code to turn them into truely alive AIs (whatever happened to Legion's speech about the geth making their own way) is a significant risk with no real benefits (essentially, Shepard engineers a state of mutually assured destruction between the quarians and the geth in order to get the quarians to cease fire long enough to negotiate some sort of peace) and I find it difficult to justify Shepard making that decision (I'm sure you've got a perfectly sensible explanation for how Shepard risked letting the Reapers win so that the geth could have their freedom or something with similarly insanely misplaced priorities)

 

Also, I read how some ppl indicated that machines can't be indoctrinated… What is the story on the "Heretics"? From what I recall, Legion explained how they are Geth infected with a "virus". Isn't that another way of saying they have been compromised? In other words, Indoctrinated?

Well, the geth heretics were something quite different and it's best to completely ignore everything you've learned about the geth in ME2 since the writers sure have. Regardless, you don't have to go back that far - the reason Shepard is on Rannoch is because Reapers are controlling the geth via that hidden relay base thingy, so obviously the Reapers can control geth and installing Reaper software on geth platforms is a pretty dumb idea (which like most dumb ideas in ME does not have any negative effect of any kind)

[Iamjdr]

my point was if the tech works why not wait till after the war? and why involve the entire civilian fleet?

Well the for one thing, the entire galaxy knows the last time a reaper showed up guess who popped out of the Perseus veil for the first time in 300 years? That's right the Geth, and seeing as the reapers are now inbound wouldn't it make sense to cut of any potential allies they may have before it's to late? I mean say they didn't attack the Geth and the reapers showed up an took over the Geth anyways? Then people wouldnt be so quick to ask why the quarians are attacking a known reaper ally while the reapers are mid invasion. I don't think there is honestly a single person in the galaxy that even knows about the Geth/heretic split that isn't apart of sheps crew since as I said legion is the only non hostile Geth ever encountered. And the quarians took the civilians cause they neede every ship if they were gonna take on a force as strong as the Geth and honestly were are the supposed to put all the civilians? Isn't that part of why they wanted rannoch in the first place.

[Iamjdr]

What the geth actually are is constantly changing, far more than people change with time - they'll be fundamentally reprogramming themselves all the time so can't meaningfully be said to be the same entity or entities that they were 300 years ago, even if they've got the same memories. Whether they're different enough not not sensibly be held accountable now for anything they did then is probably unknowable.

Okay I can see them not being completely the same but they at least have all the memories from the past. The quarians from the morning war are long dead and the new quarians are completely different to there ancestors aswell . what with being forced to live in suits and being nomads for the past 300 years. Things change this is true but the Geth were the ones with the most capacity to change for the better but I have seen no such thing.

[Invisible Man]

I'm not awake enough to argue yet; though iamjdr, I don't think I personally or my character... or whatever, has the knowledge to make judgments about what went on 300 years ago during the morning war, because we don't really get to see what went on. as we weren't there, nor do we have any complete accounts of what exactly transpired, just bits and pieces from a few scattered sources. now, you're saying you can't let the geth off the hook for their past actions, though are you willing to let the quarians off the hook for theirs? honestly, I don't hold either geth nor the quarians in higher regard to one another, though If I had to pick between them, I'd go with the quarians. hell, I don't even know what I'm saying at this point.

[Iamjdr]

I'm not awake enough to argue yet; though iamjdr, I don't think I personally or my character... or whatever, has the knowledge to make judgments about what went on 300 years ago during the morning war, because we don't really get to see what went on. as we weren't there, nor do we have any complete accounts of what exactly transpired, just bits and pieces from a few scattered sources. now, you're saying you can't let the geth off the hook for their past actions, though are you willing to let the quarians off the hook for theirs? honestly, I don't hold either geth nor the quarians in higher regard to one another, though If I had to pick between them, I'd go with the quarians. hell, I don't even know what I'm saying at this point.

I not sure I have the knowledge to judge the morning war either but they kinda force us to with this choice don't they? I also don't think the quarains or the Geth should be forgiven so easily. The difference is I feel the quarians have actually paid for there actions tenfold. They were reduced to 1% of there population, forced to live inside suits on sterile ships for 300 years in exile. Not only that but These quarians in our games are only the decendants of the the actual quarains who commited the crimes of which they are being accused. None of the quarains from the morning war even still exist at this point but the Quarian people still suffer the consequences. The Geth brutally won their freedom and then just kinda sat around on rannochfor 300 years until Saren and sovvy showed up and part of them split and attacked the citadel with them...