140 réponses à ce sujet

[ImaginaryMatter]

 I have no problem with them defending their homeworlds, but they weren't doing crap in helping build alliances. It was all done by Shepard. A human.

 

If any of the politicians in this series were more than just caricatures the Reapers would have been beaten long ago. Instead, they needed to be unbelievably incompetent and apathetic so Shepard could be the hero. For me that doesn't really heighten Shepard, it just makes me roll my eyes at this overused trope. The moral of the series: Politicians are the weeds of the galaxy.

[ImaginaryMatter]

It isn't that people object so much to there being a focus on retaking Earth. It is that there is no justification given for it in the lore, and no justification in ME3. 

 

The Alliance is a fourth-rate power behind the Turian Hierarchy, Asari Republics, and Salarian Union according to the lore. Palaven, as the homeworld of the most militarily powerful species, and Thessia, as the most economically important planet, should have a strategic importance many times greater than that of Earth. So why is the counterattack occuring at Earth? And why should the Turians or Asari send their fleets to Earth when their own homeworlds, each of which is more strategically important than Earth, are under attack?

 

That isn't to say that having Earth be the focus of ME3 was inherently wrong. Just that if the writers were going to go that route, they shouldn't have ignored their own lore. You need to give a justfication for Earth being the focus within the plot, whether that is hitting a Reaper weak spot (more Reapers being deployed to Palaven and Thessia) or some other reason that makes Earth a better option for a counterattack at that time.

 

Having Shepard tell the Turian Councilor that he needed Turian fleets to save Earth at a time when Palaven was burning, with no further justfication beyond "because humans," was as silly and ridiculous as having Shepard try to convince Ashley to join a Cerberus ship at Horizon by sayng, "C'mon..it will be just like old times."

 

It also followed on the heels of other aspects of the series where the humans were presented as special, even if it required ignoring science. For example in Mass Effect 2 in order to make humans special snowflakes, its said that the Reapers are focusing on humanity because of their great genetic diversity. This was a "LOL Wut?" moment, as humanity isn't genetically diverse at all. In fact we are one of the least gentically diverse species on our own planet.

 

In conclusion, the less 'humans are special' ego-stroking in ME4 the better.

 

Humanity definitely got Mary Sued.

[SwobyJ]

I love how so many people here these forums care so little about Humanity, when they are bloody humans. Nothing but a bunch of sell outs, all of you. Earth is the human home world, damn right I'm going to fight for it.

 

Well myself, I'd value Earth/Humanity over any other. I'd wear my affinities on my sleeve.

 

But that doesn't mean I'd go "EVERYONE COME TO EARTH ASAP". Not if it seemed friggin suicidal. Evacuate the planet as best as possible, then counterattack.

 

Only way that the ending push to Earth/London made any sense to me and/or my Shepard, was that the Citadel made its way there. Otherwise, I'd have wanted an option for every available asset to GTFO of Earth so we can organize the war better.

[Nethalf]

What really bothers me is batarian fleet hanging around Earth. Okay, we won, Reapers are defeated. Yeah, suck it up bit...s!

Wait. If Balak wanted to go kamikaze on Earth with his ship to destroy human megapolis like Toronto or Big Apple or Seul, what could've stopped him? His precious Hegemony lies in ruins, batarians are nothing but history, he has nothing to fight for and his vengeance to Reapers is completed. But hey, there are still human asses to kick!

[Slayer299]

   I was under the impression after the ending of mass effect 2 that Humans were the main focus of the reaper invasion because of their rapid expansion. This was resulting in higher numbers of them around the galaxy ( through out  mass effect 2 its the humans who are disappearing no the other races from what I remember ), For example the human reaper at the end. Also, the earth systems were the first to get attacked and the only ones who seemed to be actually getting things organized for the galaxy. Yes, the reapers were attacking the whole galaxy though earth was giving them the highest return in terms of reaperized forces thus its easier to attack the other worlds. Its also mentioned that the reapers would send out hordes of husk before they began invading most civilizations ~ husk are reaperized humans

 

 

The Batarians got hit first and the Cannibals formed the backbone of the Reaper forces before husks started showing up and even then they were still outnumbered. Im not clear how you get that Earth was giving them the highest return for Reaper forces though, the Reapers were sitting on Palaven (who was fighting tooth and nail, but still....), they *owned* Kar'shan and most of the nearby colonies. 

 

Humans were the focus as far as being the next Reaper-species was what the game implied from 2 because of Shepard, but not due to their rapid expansion, the Asari and Turians had waaayyyy more colonies if that was to go by. 

[Slayer299]

Yeah, that was one thing that really didn't make any sense OP. Why ask everyone to come send their fleets to Earth? It's not like there was anything of any strategic importance their *at* Earth to begin with, other than saving it. Our problem was saving the galaxy here, and asking the other races to abandon theirs to help us with ours never made a lot of sense without a really good reason other than "we're humans and we need to start by saving Earth by working together". 

[Randy1012]

Making Earth the focal point of the final battle was pretty much a no-brainer from a marketing perspective and pretty much seemed inevitable even before ME3's plot was confirmed. However, the game made a huge mistake in focusing the plot on convincing the other species to commit their fleets to retaking Earth. The plot should have focused on the Crucible, as that is what ultimately would determine victory for the organics. I like that Liara discovers plans for the Crucible in the Prothean archive on Mars, but I think it would have been better if those plans had been incomplete. Maybe in order to complete the plans Shepard needs to find other Prothean facilities across the galaxy. Now, obviously the organics would still need time to build the Crucible, so that couldn't be the focus of the entire plot. But at least it would give Shepard a less eye-roll inducing reason to be running all over the galaxy than "Come help Earth, please."

[Bob from Accounting]

That really doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Fleets are not going to get the Crucible built any faster. So Shepard says...what?  "I need to fleets to guard the Crucible?"

[Randy1012]

Yeah, I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you. I read the other threads around here; I know better. Suffice it to say that my entire post was about changing the plot. Not once in my post did I mention Shepard trying to gather fleets.

[Bob from Accounting]

If you 'know better' then there shouldn't be any problem, should there? I can't help if it others resort to childish antics. Speaking of 'wasting time,' we can have a fine discussion if you can avoid wasting mine. You can start by dropping the attitude.

 

So let me get this straight. You look it's a good idea to strip out uniting the galaxy entirely. And replace it was Shepard running around looking for Crucible plans. That about right?

[ImaginaryMatter]

Making Earth the focal point of the final battle was pretty much a no-brainer from a marketing perspective and pretty much seemed inevitable even before ME3's plot was confirmed. However, the game made a huge mistake in focusing the plot on convincing the other species to commit their fleets to retaking Earth. The plot should have focused on the Crucible, as that is what ultimately would determine victory for the organics. I like that Liara discovers plans for the Crucible in the Prothean archive on Mars, but I think it would have been better if those plans had been incomplete. Maybe in order to complete the plans Shepard needs to find other Prothean facilities across the galaxy. Now, obviously the organics would still need time to build the Crucible, so that couldn't be the focus of the entire plot. But at least it would give Shepard a less eye-roll inducing reason to be running all over the galaxy than "Come help Earth, please."

 

I found it disconnecting. Shepard delivers a speech that the Crucible is their only hope and then... forgets about it for about half of the game to set about the task everyone knows is doomed to failure. I'm not a fan of super weapon plots but I think I could have gotten behind the idea of building the Crucible and finding whatever pieces of the puzzle needed to solve it as a race against time, if it made up most of the game.

[ErikModi]

Well, one thing you have to look at is what Humanity's "hat" is in Mass Effect.

 

"Hat" is reference to the "Planet of Hats" trope on tvtropes.org.  Basically, it's when an alien race is boiled down to a single defining character trait.  All Klingons are honorable warriors, all Romulans are treacherous backstabbers, all Ferengi are greedy double-dealers. . . yeah, Star Trek pretty much lives and breathes that trope.  Mass Effect tried to avert it, while at the same time getting some mileage out of it.  All the races have stereotypes, but whether or not they live up to them is usually up to the individual, and some are outright lies (all Quarians are thieves.)

 

If humanity can be said to have a "hat" in Mass Effect, it's likely that we DO THINGS.  Several people from various races comment on how humans are always out there, always doing stuff, always getting involved.  We earned our Concil the fastest out of anyone.  We've rapidly taken steps to integrate into the galactic community.  Most importantly, we've done more to bring that community together in the past few years than the Council has done since it was created.  Moreover, humanity are the ones with the plan to defeat the Reapers (literally, in terms of Crucible blueprints, and figuratively, in the form of getting stuff together to build thing and figuring out how to successfully deploy it.)  Moreover, as other races are collapsing under the fear of Reaper attack (to say nothing of the actual attacks themselves), humans are the ones keeping their eye on the prize.  Yeah, sure, we want to punt the Reapers off of Earth, but just taking Earth back is pointless unless we can proceed to hold it, and the only way to do that is by defeating the Reapers once and for all.  The way I look at it, as the galactic situation grows steadily more desperate, all the aliens start falling in line with the human plan, because no one else has a better idea, or any idea at all.

 

As for the fleets going for Earth. . . that's where the Catalyst was.  If the Citadel had stayed put, or been moved to Thessia, Palaven, Tuchanka, or West Armpit, you can be sure that's where the fleets would have gone, because that's where the battle needed to be fought.  The battle at the end of the game had nothing to do with "taking back Earth."  It had to do with taking back the Citadel and getting the Crucible fired up.  For narrative reasons, to give the players an investment in the emotional arc of the story, the Citadel just happened to go to Earth, likely because, as has been pointed out, humans are responsible for the only real defeats the Reapers have had this cycle (and likely, for many, many cycles before.)

 

By the way. . . is anyone else noticing a fondness for C-named MacGuffins?  Conduit, Crucible, Catalyst. . .

[SporkFu]

At the time the game takes place, there are over eleven billion people on Earth. If the reapers intend to build the new reaper out of humans, it makes sense that Earth is the focal point. Udina said it himself: "By all reports, Earth is facing the brunt of the attack."

 

Just because the salarian councilor is a jerk doesn't mean Udina is lying.

[Slayer299]

Well, one thing you have to look at is what Humanity's "hat" is in Mass Effect.

 

"Hat" is reference to the "Planet of Hats" trope on tvtropes.org.  Basically, it's when an alien race is boiled down to a single defining character trait.  All Klingons are honorable warriors, all Romulans are treacherous backstabbers, all Ferengi are greedy double-dealers. . . yeah, Star Trek pretty much lives and breathes that trope.  Mass Effect tried to avert it, while at the same time getting some mileage out of it.  All the races have stereotypes, but whether or not they live up to them is usually up to the individual, and some are outright lies (all Quarians are thieves.)

 

If humanity can be said to have a "hat" in Mass Effect, it's likely that we DO THINGS.  Several people from various races comment on how humans are always out there, always doing stuff, always getting involved.  We earned our Concil the fastest out of anyone.  We've rapidly taken steps to integrate into the galactic community.  Most importantly, we've done more to bring that community together in the past few years than the Council has done since it was created.  Moreover, humanity are the ones with the plan to defeat the Reapers (literally, in terms of Crucible blueprints, and figuratively, in the form of getting stuff together to build thing and figuring out how to successfully deploy it.)  Moreover, as other races are collapsing under the fear of Reaper attack (to say nothing of the actual attacks themselves), humans are the ones keeping their eye on the prize.  Yeah, sure, we want to punt the Reapers off of Earth, but just taking Earth back is pointless unless we can proceed to hold it, and the only way to do that is by defeating the Reapers once and for all.  The way I look at it, as the galactic situation grows steadily more desperate, all the aliens start falling in line with the human plan, because no one else has a better idea, or any idea at all.

 

As for the fleets going for Earth. . . that's where the Catalyst was.  If the Citadel had stayed put, or been moved to Thessia, Palaven, Tuchanka, or West Armpit, you can be sure that's where the fleets would have gone, because that's where the battle needed to be fought.  The battle at the end of the game had nothing to do with "taking back Earth."  It had to do with taking back the Citadel and getting the Crucible fired up.  For narrative reasons, to give the players an investment in the emotional arc of the story, the Citadel just happened to go to Earth, likely because, as has been pointed out, humans are responsible for the only real defeats the Reapers have had this cycle (and likely, for many, many cycles before.)

 

By the way. . . is anyone else noticing a fondness for C-named MacGuffins?  Conduit, Crucible, Catalyst. . .

 

Okay, but there are a few problems though.

 

The fleets weren't going to Earth because that's where the Catalyst was, heck, they didn't even *know* about the Catalyst's location until the last 1% of the game when we were just finishing off Cerberus, by then, the assault on Earth was a foregone conclusion. Upto then it was all about "saving" Earth "because"....but not for anything any more real than that. Ostensibly, it was to start fighting as a united galaxy and defeat the Reapers on Earth, but that was all there was to it. 

 

You're righta bout the narrative reasons why the Catalyst was moved and the "take earth back" marketing, but I felt that fell flat with the poor job that was done in game. 

[nallepuh86]

Reason they attacked earth is that reapers moved the citadel into earth`s orbit, did you guys even play the game?   Citadel is the conduit and without it, crusible would not work.

 

 

Strategically it was bit a gamble and it would only work if the crusible would actually work.

 

But i think galactic alliance could have won reapers even with a conversional war if they would made a smarter choices, like splitting the armada into two and instead going to earth they would free the other worlds where is only minor reaper forces. This way they could take out many reapers with taking only minimal losses and allowing worlds that have been freed from the reapers to start rebuilding new ships.

 

Small force should have been going to earth too and destroy the sol relay, slowing majority of the reaper fleet, giving other worlds more time to rebuild ships and other defences.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Reason they attacked earth is that reapers moved the citadel into earth`s orbit, did you guys even play the game?   Citadel is the conduit and without it, crusible would not work.

 

 

Strategically it was bit a gamble and it would only work if the crusible would actually work.

 

But i think galactic alliance could have won reapers even with a conversional war if they would made a smarter choices, like splitting the armada into two and instead going to earth they would free the other worlds where is only minor reaper forces. This way they could take out many reapers with taking only minimal losses and allowing worlds that have been freed from the reapers to start rebuilding new ships.

 

Small force should have been going to earth too and destroy the sol relay, slowing majority of the reaper fleet, giving other worlds more time to rebuild ships and other defences.

 

It's more to do with the notion that the majority of the game is structured around forming alliances for the repeatedly stated purpose of retaking Earth, when there is no reason to do so other than the player is from Earth.

 

The Reapers moving the Citadel to Earth just seems like a way to conveniently tie up all loose ends.

[Randy1012]

The Reapers moving the Citadel to Earth just opens up a whole new can of worms, though. Once the Reapers retook the Citadel, why did they even bother moving it to Earth? With the Citadel back under their control they should have had control over the entire mass relay network. They could have used it to shut all the relays down and cut everyone off from each other, which has basically been the Reapers' modus operandi in every single other cycle that came before this one. Why would they suddenly decide to leave the relays active, therefore enabling the allied species to launch their assault and bring the Crucible to the Catalyst?

[Barquiel]

I'm not sure, but I guess they moved the citadel to Earth because that was where the largest concentration of Reaper forces was, so it was the safest place for it. Why they didn't use it to shut off the relay into the Sol system I have no idea.

[Randy1012]

I'm not sure, but I guess they moved the citadel to Earth because that was where the largest concentration of Reaper forces was, so it was the safest place for it. Why they didn't use it to shut off the relay into the Sol system I have no idea.

True, but the Reapers shouldn't really have needed to move it at all. If they'd just shut down all of the relays none of the organic fleets could have threatened the Citadel, regardless of where it was.

[ImaginaryMatter]

There's also the question why the Reapers just floated around Earth during the number of weeks it would have taken to get the Victory Fleet into the Sol system.

[von uber]

Moving the Citadel was stupid given that there was absolutely no need to. In fact if they hadn't then the Reapers would've won.

[wright1978]

It's more to do with the notion that the majority of the game is structured around forming alliances for the repeatedly stated purpose of retaking Earth, when there is no reason to do so other than the player is from Earth.
 
The Reapers moving the Citadel to Earth just seems like a way to conveniently tie up all loose ends.

Yep i have to jump through quite a few mental hoops and avoid the really out there earth centric dialogue because the notion of retaking earth before the citadel gets taken there is patently silly IMO. The only thing I can put it down to is a marketing fear that saving the galaxy rather than earth would be too confusing for new players.

The reapers being able to simply nab the citadel to earth thing always struck me as silly too especially after the coup as surely there would have had to have been a significant force protecting it given its strategic importance as referenced in me1.

[Argolas]

Moving the Citadel was stupid given that there was absolutely no need to. In fact if they hadn't then the Reapers would've won.

 

They would have won if they hadn't set up a backdoor into the Citadel. Talk about stupidity.

[von uber]

They would have won if they hadn't set up a backdoor into the Citadel. Talk about stupidity.

 

Well yes, quite.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Moving the Citadel was stupid given that there was absolutely no need to. In fact if they hadn't then the Reapers would've won.

 

Or if they just turned off the beam.

 

One example in my joke theory that the Catalyst is just a VI programmed with a superiority complex.