230 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

So Thane puts drugs in women's drinks...hmmm . I hope Rasa checked herself afterwards.

 

Yes, that is the lesson to take from this comic

[Eterna]

She never treated Shepard like jesus. I think this whole post is pretty much ignorant and baiting.

 

Nobody is trying to make Miranda into a purity sue. It completely goes against her character to even try. Alas, as her character development in ME2 and ME3 went, the inconsistency here is completely out of character for Miranda. 

 

Simply put, can you give a real reason why Miranda would blatantly lie to a person that she considers to be one of here only real, true friends and/or love?

 

Because she doesn't want that friend to blame her for what just occurred. She doesn't want to let her friend know she's been hiding something from them. 

[ElitePinecone]

It's not really so much about Miranda's character. It's more about having an in-game experience rewritten on a writer's whim after-the-fact, which is important if you care about the authenticity of the story you're reading/playing/consuming. I'm no Miranda fan, but just as a player that enjoyed the ME trilogy story, I find this kind of thing off-putting, especially since it doesn't seem to have been done for any good reason. And since Mac never seems to want to comment about the stories, we're left confused as to whether it is a mistake or some kind of actual character development.

 

This of course makes stories from the ME universe more annoying than enjoyably revealing.

 

Yeah. I couldn't care less about Miranda. I do care about the consistency of the story.

 

Also, the idea that Mac would hide a lie in the Citadel DLC only to reveal it in a comic book a year later is ridiculous.

 

The simplest explanation - that this is a mistake - is far easier to believe than a convoluted conspiracy that depends on people both playing the Citadel DLC and reading a comic series intended for the obsessive hard core fans, separated by a year.

[Eterna]

 

 

The simplest explanation - that this is a mistake - is far easier to believe than a convoluted conspiracy that depends on people both playing the Citadel DLC and reading a comic series intended for the obsessive hard core fans, separated by a year.

 

Of course it's a mistake. There are mistakes riddled in every section of this trilogy. 

 

At least with this mistake we can make some sense of it. 

[ElitePinecone]

By making sense of it do you mean dreaming up a way to explain the contradiction between Citadel and Foundation, though? Or just in the sense that we can see how this sort of mistake could have been made?

 

Because if this was just an oversight, it was surely never Mac's intention to give the impression that Miranda was lying - even if "Miranda was lying" is about the only way that both Citadel and Foundation could be true at the same time. 

 

The messier explanation is that Citadel was true when it was written, and Foundation is true now, and who knows which one would actually be "real" if you sat Mac down and asked him. I doubt it matters much anyway, particularly since we'll probably never see Miranda or Shepard ever again, but this is another plot point where we can't ever be sure what really happened. 

 

(and to some people who are invested in Miranda as a character - again, I'm not - the question of what she knew about a clone probably matters a great deal)

[wright1978]

By making sense of it do you mean dreaming up a way to explain the contradiction between Citadel and Foundation, though? Or just in the sense that we can see how this sort of mistake could have been made?

 

Because if this was just an oversight, it was surely never Mac's intention to give the impression that Miranda was lying - even if "Miranda was lying" is about the only way that both Citadel and Foundation could be true at the same time. 

 

The messier explanation is that Citadel was true when it was written, and Foundation is true now, and who knows which one would actually be "real" if you sat Mac down and asked him. I doubt it matters much anyway, particularly since we'll probably never see Miranda or Shepard ever again, but this is another plot point where we can't ever be sure what really happened. 

 

(and to some people who are invested in Miranda as a character - again, I'm not - the question of what she knew about a clone probably matters a great deal)

Yep whether my favourite character is twisted to make out that she has such a low an opinion of her close friend/lover at that point of the game as to directly lie to them in a atrocious comic series does matter to me. I'll lean on the side of incompetent over malicious but doesn't mean the slight won't linger.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Because she doesn't want that friend to blame her for what just occurred. She doesn't want to let her friend know she's been hiding something from them. 

 

Why would Shepard blame her for what happened? She didn't wake-up the clone. She didn't set on a warpath against the real Shepard. 

 

This is the person who risked life and limb to save her at Sanctuary. The person who she confessed to feeling deeply guilty about wanting to control. 

 

And Shepard is directly asking her whether or not she knew about the clone. Directly lying to Shepard about this is going to cause a lot more damage than if she simply said, 'yeah, I knew about the clone and Brooks. They were part of a contingency that was to be used in case you weren't able to be resuscitated.' Shepard would not judge her or hold it against her. Shepard knows pretty well that Miranda leaves out irrelevant details, and up until 6 months ago, long after Miranda had ended her association with Cerberus, the clone was irrelevant because it wasn't needed. She had no control over any of it.

 

So this assertion really makes no sense. 

[jtav]

It's not so much "Miranda wouldn't lie to Shepard"--she'd do it in two seconds if it served her purposes--as, again, wrong genre. The purpose of the Citadel scenes is to make the players feel good and make up for perceived neglect. It's the same reason I don't expect the couple to lie to each other in the epilogue of a romance novel and would chalk up any discrepancies to bad copyediting. It only matters if one must reconcile every scrap of canon. I don't feel the need to do so. In fact, Foundation seems to be something of an override for Citadel. There's a Brooks, there's a clone, but it's all played very seriously, as opposed to Citadel's camp.

[Steelcan]

The simplest explanation - that this is a mistake - is far easier to believe than a convoluted conspiracy that depends on people both playing the Citadel DLC and reading a comic series intended for the obsessive hard core fans, separated by a year.

 

You must be unfamiliar with the Miranda fans

 

 

 

 

EVERYTHING is a conspiracy

[Eterna]

By making sense of it do you mean dreaming up a way to explain the contradiction between Citadel and Foundation, though? Or just in the sense that we can see how this sort of mistake could have been made?

 

Because if this was just an oversight, it was surely never Mac's intention to give the impression that Miranda was lying - even if "Miranda was lying" is about the only way that both Citadel and Foundation could be true at the same time. 

 

The messier explanation is that Citadel was true when it was written, and Foundation is true now, and who knows which one would actually be "real" if you sat Mac down and asked him. I doubt it matters much anyway, particularly since we'll probably never see Miranda or Shepard ever again, but this is another plot point where we can't ever be sure what really happened. 

 

(and to some people who are invested in Miranda as a character - again, I'm not - the question of what she knew about a clone probably matters a great deal)

 

Trying to explain the contradiction. With this series you have to expect contradictions at every corner now so you gotta use your imagination to make it coherent. 

[Obadiah]

...
Also, the idea that Mac would hide a lie in the Citadel DLC only to reveal it in a comic book a year later is ridiculous.
 
The simplest explanation - that this is a mistake - is far easier to believe than a convoluted conspiracy that depends on people both playing the Citadel DLC and reading a comic series intended for the obsessive hard core fans, separated by a year.

 
Who said that Walters "hid a lie", and that it was a "convoluted conspiracy"? The explanation, other than "this is a mistake" is that he decided to change/re-frame the original DLC story when writing the comic book, and that this provides character development for Miranda.

 

And if at some point in the future there is further information given on the clone and Miranda's relationship in some other form (comic, novel, video game), that will be further character development.

[ElitePinecone]

I think that's looking at it way too deeply, to be honest. To me, the overwhelmingly likely explanation is that this was a mistake, and it'll never be mentioned again.

 

Without trying to sound flippant, they've never done that sort of long-term bait-and-switch storytelling - Mass Effect's plot has been up-front and without a lot of subtlety. Looking for a sophisticated character revelation in a comic book series that retcons a joke DLC seems a bit implausible. None of the other Foundation comics have challenged anything about any of the other characters, and I'd have to wonder - why would Mac bother?

 

We'll almost certainly never see Miranda again, in anything, unless she shows up in a later Foundation comic. For the last two years they've been emphasising over and over that Shepard and all of the trilogy characters likely won't show up in much future content, and maybe not at all. Her relationship with Shepard ended with the Citadel DLC, period (in case that wasn't obvious from the "say goodbye to everyone, ever" vibe). I hardly see a point in more major characterisation when we'll never see the consequences, and a comic book is a silly place to do it regardless. 

[Obadiah]

@ElitePinecone

I don't see what's so deep about one story reframing an event that took place in a previous story. It happens in franchises all the time. The way inconsistencies like that are usually interpreted is that the most recently released story sheds light on previous stories. The point of this is to keep fans interested in the franchise, and buying products.

 

An example of long-term bait-and-switch storytelling done in Mass Effect would be the end of Mass Effect 3, in which the ending reframed the entire conflict of the trilogy.

 

I'm not discounting that the inconsistency in this comic is just a mistake, I'm just not discounting it could be something else.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Trying to explain the contradiction. With this series you have to expect contradictions at every corner now so you gotta use your imagination to make it coherent. 

 

That's basically saying that I should expect and accept mediocrity and bad writing. Because you're defending that right here.

 

Somethings bad? Just fix it with your imagination.

 

Why should I? It's not my job to have to fix their narrative screw-ups with headcanon. It's their job not to make the screw-ups in the first place.

[CrutchCricket]

That's basically saying that I should expect and accept mediocrity and bad writing. Because you're defending that right here.

 

Somethings bad? Just fix it with your imagination.

 

Why should I? It's not my job to have to fix their narrative screw-ups with headcanon. It's their job not to make the screw-ups in the first place.

 

True but if you still want to function in this universe via headcanon or anything else, you do have to do some tidying up.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

True but if you still want to function in this universe via headcanon or anything else, you do have to do some tidying up.

 

Oh believe me, I'm not denying that at all. 

 

I was calling out the belief that we should just accept such things and that its alright for narrative contradictions to exist 'since the series already' has several.

 

Believe me, it's really not as hard as people make out to keep the lore of a universe tidy and clean. I get that there are some things, especially in the game that focuses a lot on player choice, that has to be glossed over and accounted for, but for things the player doesn't control, it needs to be solid and uncompromising in its history. 

 

Unless its Doctor Who, Marvel Comics, or some kind of high fantasy/epic style story where characters are routinely given god-like reality warping powers, I think a writer must always contain his story within the existing laws and lore of the universe he's writing in. If Mac wants to branch out, he's more than welcome to make his own original universe where he can make the laws be whatever he wants them to be.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I hope that this is just a bad comic series and not the standard for all the potential comic series ME can have.

 

Nope, it's pretty much the standard for all extra-game material. Books, comics, the Paragon Lost movie... all exceptionally mediocre.

[Andrew Lucas]

Mac really hates Miranda or he have some serious mind troubles but he won't make me lost my love that i have for her ,After that preview i don't give it a damn anymore.

[Star fury]

Mac Walters or another Bioware employee should really comment on this. 

[Steelcan]

Mac Walters or another Bioware employee should really comment on this. 

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
 

Like they'd ever acknowledge a blatant discrepancy in the lore

[Star fury]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
 

Like they'd ever acknowledge a blatant discrepancy in the lore

They did apologize for lore contradictions in some ME novellisations. Not that I expect something like that from SuperMac mind you. 

[Ajensis]

They did apologize for lore contradictions in some ME novellisations. Not that I expect something like that from SuperMac mind you. 

 

The issues with Deception were exceptionally bad, though. It makes sense that they would give an official response to something of that calibre (although with the reworked version never showing up, they might as well not have bothered ). Compared to that one, the problems reported in this thread seem significantly less objectionable.

 

I don't like the inconsistencies any more than you do, but unless I'm missing something here, an official Bioware response seems like overkill in this case. It would be nice to live in a world where they would address even the smaller issues like the ones in this comic, but they've got better things to do with their time and it's probably not worth it from a business point of view anyway (risking headlines on some news sites that would make it seem like a bigger issue than it arguably is, etc.).

 

Just to make it clear, though, I'm not trying to discourage the actual criticism itself; I think it's a good thing that we remind Bioware that we care about what they do with their universe, and hopefully it'll make a difference for the better later on.

[Argentoid]

Mac really hates Miranda or he have some serious mind troubles but he won't make me lost my love that i have for her ,After that preview i don't give it a damn anymore.

 

He wrote most of Miranda in ME2. I doubt he hates her.

[Eterna]

That's basically saying that I should expect and accept mediocrity and bad writing. Because you're defending that right here.

 

Somethings bad? Just fix it with your imagination.

 

Why should I? It's not my job to have to fix their narrative screw-ups with headcanon. It's their job not to make the screw-ups in the first place.

 

Then stop following the series. You bitching on the forums won't change anything.