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[ShadowLordXII]

How will Ferelden and Thedas remember him ten years after the Blight?

 

On one hand, he was Maric's right-hand man, a hero who risked everything to liberate Ferelden from Orlais and helped restore their way of life after an oppressive 70 year occupation. He was a Teryn and General of the army with a gift for strategy. He was also fervently loyal to his country and even gave up his girlfriend because he knew she was the queen that Ferelden needed.

 

On the other hand, everything after his retreat from Ostagar (right or wrong) was a disaster for his country. He tried to seize power which caused a Civil War, Hired assassins to kill the Grey Wardens, Sold elves (and likely humans) to Tevinter, Co-Conspired with Howe and was directly or indirectly involved in his atrocities or at least enabled them, Poisoned Arl Eamon by extorting a Blood Mage from Chantry custody and all while the Blight is overrunning Ferelden without opposition.

 

How will history remember him? Will history validate his actions as flawed, but well-intentioned? Will he become a historical villain whose fall from grace will serve as a tale of caution towards patriotic nationalists? A tragic figure who was blinded by how he was destroying the very country that he loved?

 

Will it be determined by the Warden's actions or will the verdict be largely the same whether he was executed or recruited as Grey Warden and either died killing the archdemon or lives on as a warden?

 

For instance, Warden Loghain who sacrificed himself to kill the Archdemon will still be revered as a hero with his flaws during the Blight glossed over as he ended up redeeming himself by stopping the Blight.

 

Or, a Loghain whose executed at the Landsmeet will have his past reputation torn apart and he'll be seen as a paranoid fool who was complacent in the atrocities of a butcher and cared only for himself.

 

And furthermore, how do players feel about him? Is he someone who you'd recruit as a Warden at the cost of controversy and the loss of respect from a friend/lover? Is he a fallen hero who you despise and often had killed at your hands or Alistair's? Or is he still the same divisive character that he was when Origins first came out? A fallen hero that you either loved or hated with no room in between?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I think the epilogues imply that how Ferelden remembers Loghain depends on his fate in the end of the game. I'm thikning that if he lives or dies a hero, then his good deeds are remembered more than his bad. If he's executed at the Landsmeet, Ferelden remembers him a traitor. In some cases, even if Anora is Queen, she builds a statue in his memory but if he was killed by the Warden or Alistair, only she ever visits it.

 

As for players, well, I get the sense he's a very polarizing character on BSN. He seems to have a lot of fans that think he did the right thing at Ostagar though.

[Ob3rah]

I'm going to begin reading Dragon Age: The Stolen Throne tonight, so I know I'll learn a lot about Loghain before the fifth blight, but I'll speak on what I've learned of him during the blight. To the people of Ferelden, Loghain is a son of Ferelden; a hero, and a symbol of what it means to be Ferelden. He's a beloved man who began to fall from grace after Ostagar and then fell completely once his treacherous actions were brought to clear light at the Landsmeet.

The fact that he "retreated" (I say ran) from Ostagar; left the King and his men, along with the Wardens, to die; placed the blame on the Wardens for that defeat; sent Jowan to poison Arl Eamon; allowed Howe to massacre the Cousland family (it is my opinion that Loghain knew of Howe's plan, or at the very least suspected it); dealt in slavery of his own people, which risked giving Ferelden a reputation that most, if not all, of the people would not want of their homeland; and that he allowed Howe to hold his own daughter, Queen Anora as a prisoner are many reasons I had Alistair kill Loghain at the Landsmeet. That, and because I like Alistair and my Warden always becomes good friends with him, so I don't want to gravely upset and lose him in the end after he fought at my side throughout the entire game.

I wouldn't say Loghain was an "evil" man, but a man who became larger than life (or at least in his own mind) and felt he literally was Ferelden, so he obviously knew what was best, right? Having Howe as an adviser didn't help at all either, since that man is a snake and fought for his own personal gains. It's also possible that he aligned himself with Uldred, who wanted to become First Enchanter of the Circle of Ferelden and possibly create a split from the Chantry. So, Loghain wasn't exactly associating with good company, that's for sure.

In the end, I don't hate Loghain. He is an interesting man with an interesting background that I look forward to reading more about, but I would never have him in my party of companions. How will he be remembered? In my mind, a man who fell from grace. How will Ferelden remember Loghain? With Alistair as King, most likely a Hero turned Tyrant. How will Thedas remember Loghain? Most likely a hero, because the rest of the world was not close to what was happening in Ferelden, so rumors and biased opinions are likely to float around and be believed more outside of Ferelden than by Fereldens themselves.

[Toasted Llama]

I may or may not start reading the books but I know 1 thing for sure:

I will separate Origin-Loghain from Book-Loghain. I think Loghain was supposed to be portrayed as an antagonist or an anti-hero, thus not intended to be liked by the player. So that makes it impossible for me to "like" him. Book-Loghain though? Oh sure, I might like him!

 

Having that said; I don't "hate" Origin-Loghain either. He has his sensible moments, but for the most part I see it as his fear for Orlais has turned him mad to the point that even the Darkspawn (or basically: Death) is less threatening to him than Orlais (or basically: oppression, although that is not sure, this is the result in Loghain's eyes)

So I'd like to head-canon him as a good guy who collapsed under Orlais-'o-phobia and Ferelden will remember him as such: he did many good things for Ferelden, but his time had come and his obsession (although understandable) had gotten too far and it was necessary to kill him (whether this be by execution or sacrifice doesn't matter); both to punish him for his mistakes (his obsession/phobia is not an excuse) as well as to allow the Wardens to act without restriction in order to end the Blight.

And, well, also to put him out of his obsessed misery and end it before it can get worse; because if he survived any longer, he may not have been remembered as a good guy.

[sylvanaerie]

I think Arl Eamon summed it up best.  Even acknowledging Loghain as an antagonist, he respected the man, what he did for Ferelden.  I think Loghain just got caught up in a combination of paranoia and his own PR.  He went from just a man to a legend in his own mind, believing himself capable of holding the fractured nation in a crisis unparalleled in its history together all by himself.

 

Case in point: his attitude once he's beaten at the Landsmeet.  Up to now, he's been shown as barely holding together in the face of all the things going on.  Whether right or wrong to leave the wardens and the king holding the bag in Ostagar, i won't debate that, but if it was the right move, it was the last one he made. All the subsequent deeds he does after the debacle there (which was his plan which failed miserably after all) were just disaster piled on disaster.  When he bends knee to the warden and acknowledges here is a person who can handle the situation he was incapable of doing, he says it with such relief, like the weight of the world is suddenly off his shoulders.

 

Then i take his head off.  He's a traitor in my eyes, regardless of his motivation, his actions cause so much more damage to a country in crisis, he became a worse threat than the Orlesians he feared.  Worse, he continued to betray and harm people who trusted him.  To me this makes him as bad as (if not worse) than Howe.  At least Howe is up front with his villainy.  Loghain hides behind his legend, pretending that the evil things he's doing are all 'for a good cause', when in reality he just can't accept he is in over his head, and needs help.  He won't even let his daughter (the queen) help him.  Thus, his fate at the end of every one of my games is a traitor's fate.  The epilogue slide says Anora built him a monument, which she attended every year, but was largely ignored by the populace.  

In my games he is a fallen hero, who ultimately will be remembered for the monstrosities he visited on the very people he was trying to save.  Tragic, perhaps, but a fate of his own making entirely.

[Mike3207]

Well, regardless of what happens at the Landsmeet he'll always be known as the "general who turned his back on good King Cailan". I'm pretty sure that will show up in canon, because that's something that's pretty clear in the starting DA2 sequence.

 

As for the rest-well in the best case scenario he either loses his life fighting the Archdemon or survives as a tainted warden. He also loses the teyrnir of Gwaren to his political enemies, although he might not consider the Warden an enemy at the end.The Mac Tirs-well if Anora doesn't have a child the Mac Tirs might die out. It makes me wonder if it would be a good thing for Loghain to do the DR. It's one way the Mac Tir line will continue.

[Shadow Fox]

I see Loghain as a fallen hero who let his personal demons blind and destroy him in the end.

[Mike3207]

Let me ask everyone-to what extent do you think Howe played a role in the things Loghain did in that year? I know to a great extent Loghain seemed to count on his political advice in the actions he took during that year. Howe was the one who suggested bringing in the Crows after the Warden, after all.

[sylvanaerie]

Well, as I said in another post elsewhere, the very first thing you learn in the military is the chain of command.  The guy in charge is responsible for all acts done by his subordinates.  Regardless of who's idea it was for any of the atrocities, Loghain was aware and complicit in everything being done.  The Tevinter slaver says all Loghain spoke of was 'the warden', and it's his name on the papers.  Howe doesn't go behind Loghain's back and hire the Crows, he presents Zevran TO Loghain as a 'solution' to the problem of the surviving wardens.  Howe tells Loghain that they won't have enough men to fight the darkspawn if he continues with the civil war (during the confrontation with Anora).  The blood mage you can question in the tower says that Uldred had planned to support Loghain's bid for power and Loghain would support the Libertarians' bid for emancipation--if that was Uldred's ultimate goal and not just power--at the very least he felt free enough to drop Loghain's name to get the others to go along with it. Isolde says it was Loghain who sent Jowan to her, not Howe.  Jowan says he was told to poison Eamon not by Howe, but by Loghain.

 

I know Gaider said Loghain was unaware of the massacre in Highever, but I always found his line about 'butchering a man in his home' to be a huge hypocrisy considering he (at the least) looked the other way when he learned what Howe had done (and he knew about it by the time the Cousland warden was in the camp since he will mention it if you talk to him there).

 

To what extent Howe played?  I'm sure Howe had his fingers in some of the pies that may not even get mentioned (that final mission in Trial of the Crows is one), but I think it was all Loghain, or at least Loghain was aware of what was happening in his name.

[Cobra's_back]

Loghain is a man of power that is willing to do anything to get what he thinks is right in his mind.

 

 

He had no problems crossing the line and it finally caught up with him.

[thats1evildude]

How does Ferelden remember Loghain? According to the second item pack, his subjects at Gwaren eventually burned down his mansion and looted his belongings. He's (rightly) reviled as a traitor.

[Major Crackhead]

Loghain lives! Don't believe Alistair's lies!

[Shadow Fox]

Loghain lives! Don't believe Alistair's lies!

My Cousland and Tabris who put her sword through his gut respectfully disagree.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

And furthermore, how do players feel about him? Is he someone who you'd recruit as a Warden at the cost of controversy and the loss of respect from a friend/lover? Is he a fallen hero who you despise and often had killed at your hands or Alistair's? Or is he still the same divisive character that he was when Origins first came out? A fallen hero that you either loved or hated with no room in between?

 

I recruited Loghain.

 

-- He has the kind of attitude I look for in guys I go to war with.

-- I'd sooner destroy a stained-glass window than a skilled war general.

-- I supported Anora for the throne, and thus respected her wishes with her father as well.

-- If his concerns about Orlais after the Blight turn out to be accurate, and if I care about Fereldan, I'll be thankful I have him around.

 

If I wanted him dead, I'd have done it myself at the Landsmeet, so I didn't have him die killing the Archdemon either.

 

I think his term as regent will be glossed over and he will be remember mostly in a positive light.

[calvinien]

Well since history is written by the victors it depends on who is on throne throne.

 

Personally, I can't bring myself to kill him after reading his backstory. The guy has legitimate reasons to distrust orlais (keep in mind the rest of thedas tends to see Orlais as an empire of foppish clowns, but the prequel novels show that there is some seriously evil stuff going on in Orlais.)

 

Also, pretty much any time he's suspected things being an orlesian ploy...he's been right. Even in DAO. Cailan WAS trying to wed celene. And technically eamon WAS trying to put an orlesian on the throne. He just dind't know that Alistair was an elf blooded half orlesian.

 

 

 

[KaiserShep]

They'll remember him as the headless corpse of a man whose trouble-making was quelled by the Warden. 

[Northern Sun]

I'm letting him live for my canon playthrough, though I killed him in my earlier playthroughs. I actually think he made the correct tactical decision at Ostagar, but hten immediately screwed everything up trying to manage the country himself (the books made it very clear that Maric was the people-person). While any Cousland or Tabris character kills him because I can't RP it otherwise, characters with other origins are able to look past that and see him as a useful resource.

 

From a meta perspective, I do it because I'm interested in seeing how it could affect Inquistion and the DA world going forward, it it does at all. I expect any role in Inquisition to be a small one, but as I've said in previous posts on the subject, I want to see him sitting on the roof of one of the Orlesian Grey Warden outposts, drinking a Ferelden ale while watching Celene and her opponent's army killing each other. Also, having Loghain live and making Alistair-Anora marry was the only way to get the mage boon recognized fully in both the epilogue and 2. Not really a problem anymore with the Keep, but I'm working on a full playthrough of both games leading up to Inquisition, so having that continuity will be nice.

[Monica21]

How does Ferelden remember Loghain? According to the second item pack, his subjects at Gwaren eventually burned down his mansion and looted his belongings. He's (rightly) reviled as a traitor.

 

This is the technically correct answer at least as far as Ferelden is concerned. However, I disagree with whether he should be reviled as a traitor. Pretty much everything Loghain-related is just sloppy in DA2. If the intention was to give us an anti-hero, then at least follow through with it in the next game. RTO laid to rest any suspicions Loghain had about Orlais by doing nothing more than proving them to be true. Celene was most certainly using the darkspawn as a reason to put Orlesian boots in Ferelden and, given the assumptions one can easily make about her relationship with Cailan, she had no intention of leaving.

 

All I can say is that my Warden will remember Loghain far differently than Ferelden apparently has, and I think she's probably spending a lot of time trying to change opinions about him. And as an aside, as much as I like Ferelden, they sure have short memories. I wouldn't be too keen on letting a force into my country that had occupied it less than a generation ago, and I wouldn't be so eager to "revile" the man who freed Ferelden within my Warden's lifetime.

[Shadow Fox]

This is the technically correct answer at least as far as Ferelden is concerned. However, I disagree with whether he should be reviled as a traitor. Pretty much everything Loghain-related is just sloppy in DA2. If the intention was to give us an anti-hero, then at least follow through with it in the next game. RTO laid to rest any suspicions Loghain had about Orlais by doing nothing more than proving them to be true. Celene was most certainly using the darkspawn as a reason to put Orlesian boots in Ferelden and, given the assumptions one can easily make about her relationship with Cailan, she had no intention of leaving.

 

All I can say is that my Warden will remember Loghain far differently than Ferelden apparently has, and I think she's probably spending a lot of time trying to change opinions about him. And as an aside, as much as I like Ferelden, they sure have short memories. I wouldn't be too keen on letting a force into my country that had occupied it less than a generation ago, and I wouldn't be so eager to "revile" the man who freed Ferelden within my Warden's lifetime.

He left the King and a sizable army to die,tried to seize power after said king died,nearly doomed Ferelden by almost wiping out the Grey Wardens,either authorized or turned a blind eye to Howe's atrocities  and hired a blood mage to poison Arl Eamon thus causing the Connor incident.

 

So yeah Fereldens have plenty of reasons to hate Loghain.

[Monica21]

He left the King and a sizable army to die,tried to seize power after said king died,nearly doomed Ferelden by almost wiping out the Grey Wardens,either authorized or turned a blind eye to Howe's atrocities  and hired a blood mage to poison Arl Eamon thus causing the Connor incident.

 

So yeah Fereldens have plenty of reasons to hate Loghain.

 

Same old, same old. Let us know when you have some new material, 'kay?

[Shadow Fox]

Same old, same old. Let us know when you have some new material, 'kay?

Yet you're not refuting it...

[Bomboolee]

For whatever its worth, I think the fact that he's still such a divisive figure and that opinions on his legacy vary so widely offers yet more proof of the fact that the people who came up with his narrative arc are just phenomenally talented individuals.

 

I can't think of a better written character in any game, ever.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

He left the King and a sizable army to die,

 

As opposed to sending more of his army to die in a battle that didn't matter to begin with? (No dragon sightings before the battle, signifying no Archdemon presence, as pointed out by Loghain himself at the war-council).

 

lolCailan's death as some kind of big loss, don't even get me started...
 

tried to seize power after said king died,

 

His daughter was queen and he was the king's general. Naming himself Anora's regent is really not some huge move up for him, if a move up at all.
 

nearly doomed Ferelden by almost wiping out the Grey Wardens,

 

A fact known to one person in all of Fereldan after the Battle of Ostagar (Riordan, who wasn't even there until much later).

 

And I don't suppose the Wardens -- the same Wardens who leave important documents like military treaties lying in old forest ruins -- brought it on themselves by not informing any higher-ups in any country about the Grey Warden sacrifice required to kill an Archdemon and effectively end the Blight? That would almost be sensible, and wouldn't require hurting their recruitment they're so worried about either because no one else would need be informed.
 

and hired a blood mage to poison Arl Eamon thus causing the Connor incident.

 

Oh? I suppose Connor's parents hiding the fact he was a mage didn't have anything to do with it, either.
 

So yeah Fereldens have plenty of reasons to hate Loghain.

 

None of them particularly good, though.

[Shadow Fox]

For whatever its worth, I think the fact that he's still such a divisive figure and that opinions on his legacy vary so widely offers yet more proof of the fact that the people who came up with his narrative arc are just phenomenally talented individuals.

 

I can't think of a better written character in any game, ever.

Ulfric Stormcloak

 

As opposed to sending more of his army to die in a battle that didn't matter to begin with? (No dragon sightings before the battle, signifying no Archdemon presence, as pointed out by Loghain himself at the war-council).

 

lolCailan's death as some kind of big loss, don't even get me started...
 

 

His daughter was queen and he was the king's general. Naming himself Anora's regent is really not some huge move up for him, if a move up at all.
 

 

A fact known to one person in all of Fereldan after the Battle of Ostagar (Riordan, who wasn't even there until much later).

 

And I don't suppose the Wardens -- the same Wardens who leave important documents like military treaties lying in old forest ruins -- brought it on themselves by not informing any higher-ups in any country about the Grey Warden sacrifice required to kill an Archdemon and effectively end the Blight? That would almost be sensible, and wouldn't require hurting their recruitment they're so worried about either because no one else would need be informed.
 

 

Oh? I suppose Connor's parents hiding the fact he was a mage didn't have anything to do with it, either.
 

 

None of them particularly good, though.

 

Yet he felt the need to accuse the Wardens he left to die of committing regicide to justify it,apparently it was considering it caused a succession crisis.

 

You mean the Queen that he ignored and locked in a tower when she started to question his judgement?

 

Ignoring the blatant victim blaming the fact that there's a recorded Blight that shows what happens when a non Warden kills an Archdemon.

 

Considering had Loghain not poisoned Eamon it wouldn't have happened...

 

So betraying people who trust you,leaving them to die and vilifying them to justify it,committing regicide,causing a civil war by making a power grab,condoning torture and slavery of your own people and nearly destroying your country because of paranoia and hate aren't good reasons to hate someone?

[TheLastArchivist]

What blows my mind is that, in DA2, we hear from Alistair himself that Orlais is indeed trying to reconquer "their lost province".

 

And in DA:Origins, when you return to Ostagar (DLC), Loghain comments the king's letters and makes an important remark regarding Cailan's relationship with Empress Celene. He states the attempt to make them marry, at the cost of casting Anora aside, was actually an orlesian plot to dominate Ferelden once again.

 

So, the question is: did Loghain know of any political plot that hinted at Orlais trying to reconquer Ferelden? One that the Warden never hears about in the game? Because if he did, then his actions to stop the Wardens in Ostagar begin to make a lot of sense.

 

We all know Cailian is suggestionable. He is a good person, but a naive king. He could've been manipulated without knowing and got involved with the Empress, without becoming aware he was being used.

 

If that was the case, then Loghain was right to try and get rid of the Wardens before the orlesian Wardens arrived. Orlais would infiltrate Ferelden through the Order and a second civil war would ensue.

However, he didn't know he could never kill the Archdemon without a Warden, so we're fortunate his strategy never works out in the end.

 

Unfortunately, we will never know if Loghain had privileged information. But if he did, then this certainly redeems his character a bit. The alternative would be to consider he merely destroyed the Wardens of Ferelden and arranged Cailan's death to protect Anora and ensure she would remain in power. As Leliana once said: "We will never know for sure."