230 réponses à ce sujet

[MrRoc]

I think, if I recall correctly, the question was "How will Ferelden and Thedas remember him ten years after the Blight?" (ok, I went back and looked to find the cut and paste) and I really don't think the pro-Logie (He let me call him that in better times, we were mates for a while, until he did me country wrong) arguments actually work in relation to the question. Like I mentioned in a previous post, most of them are based to information that only a few individuals had access to (in game) and source books or novels and such that go deep into the angst of the man that well, I don't think most of the populace of the world would have access to. So the people of Thedas read the texts that have been written and think well, Benedict Arnold was a hero, but look what happened to him when he turned traitor because the majority of the world didn't particularly realise that he was a hero becoming a traitor (This was Ben Arnie from a different part of Thedas, but he bears a great resemblance to our real world American Revolution traitor - <Phew> Think I saved that reference ok?).

Maybe by the time Thedas, like most of the pro-Loghain arguers, are driving cars and have worldwide communication and even aeroplanes and such, will look back and say how misunderstood the poor bloke is. And that may be the case in a few thousand years (trouble with magical ability is that it suppresses quite a lot of need for practical invention to a degree, so trains, planes, and automobiles may take a tad longer to arrive in a dark fantasy world than a real one where we didn't have the magic to perform certain tasks such as building, and strengthening structures, divert flowing water, and so on and so forth... and it'll probably be a lot longer before they get the movie of the same name) when the books dissecting him and his behavior are published and there is an internet for referencing and possibly a historical computer game based upon the Great Blight of the Dragon Dragon Age.

 

Sure, sit back and tell me it was a tactical retreat, that the mighty of Ferelden have never faced overwhelming odds and come out on top during a Blight, that humans had to out number dark spawn by 20:1 and all that sort of stuff (that's the way it sounds, there were more than expected DS therefore it is automatically unwinnable - even though my party of four always seemed to triumph over at least 3:1 odds and my rogue - a rogue! Not a warrior - had to work her* way up in the ranks so to speak... she had just left home!?).

* Talking about my first playthrough character who, as you might have guessed was a female, a rogue, and to finish the description off, was a human noble who seemed like she had hardly ever left home before other than perhaps visiting aunt Gertrude for nobley sea side holidays and managed to raise an army and to defeat the evil hordes where many skilled warriors and one of Ferelden's greatest generals couldn't fight off on assault.

 

There is nothing I found in the game (and I am not counting writer's notes and comments after the fact) to say that had Logie committed his troops as planned, even at a later signal, they they wouldn't have swooped down on the flanks as planned and decimated the DS and allowed the wardens (who were there obviously for some reason - and that may have been it) to take advantage of enemies disarray and push through their ranks virtually wiping the darkspawn (in that attack) out and evening up the numbers. This was supposed to have been the one where they were to put a stop to the non-Blight DS incursion once and for all after all.

The Logie-League of course, are going to throw their hands up i n the air and say, "But you don't understand the idea of a tactical retreat!" and shake their collective heads in utter frustration (because they have the privileged information and know better). Of course I bloody well know the concept of a tactical withdrawal, but as far as I am concerned, you can say tactical withdrawal as much as you like, until the cows come home. Your tactical retreat has no more weight than anyone elses possible decisive victory. Everyone else has the right to say, "Because of Loghain, he snatched defeat from the jaws of victory." Because it has just as much weight as your argument.

Of course there is also the argument I suppose, that because the great hero was so obsessed with his ulterior motives and machinations that every decision he made was tainted by his own blindness to anything that was not forwarding his own personal wants. Sure, he may not have intended to kill the beloved king, but the moment he decided to 'flee' the battlefield and throw away a the winning blow, on the subject of not killing the king he thought, "Meh. I tell you what, it doesn't suit me to ride on down there with the dark spawn and all the sharp pointy things. Lets go to the pub and if the King survives well, I guess the King survives?" And then, because he hasn't been thinking like a great general for a while now, things go rapidly downhill for all involved except the dark spawn and of course the Hero of Ferelden who was now handed this fantastic opportunity to rise to the occasion (who's hardly ever left home before! Even my poor elf had never left the ghettos... errrm, alienage before). Thanks Logie.

I don't think his supporters are answering the question without benefit of extra materials the people of Thedas didn't have access too. They are answering on the basis of I know what the poor tortured soul is really like and therefore he will be remembered fondly based upon his past deeds and what I know about him. So real world history might indicate otherwise, but this is a fantasy world of course, so we already have magic and elves and such, so why not have people put behind what they have seen and heard (darkspawn everywhere, towns destroyed, lands blighted, rumours about Loghain's actions, and the finger pointed at a certain 'villain') just go ahead and adore him faithfully. Maybe he handed out rose coloured glasses to all the people as he passed by? I don't know, but using real world history as basis for human behavioural responses, I just don't think he'll get away being too loved 10 years down the track... or many many more.

 

Again, I'm answering from a PoV that there are things I shouldn't have known on the ground.

[KaiserShep]

^Along with that, there's also the point made by another person in this thread. How Loghain may be remembered is likely dependent on what the Warden does with him. My Warden kills him in a duel after all but one of the nobles at the Landsmeet turn against him. No doubt these people will be a big influence on how history is written, and they'll remember that Loghain's collaboration with Tevinter slavers and instigation of civil war led him to the Hero of Ferelden's killing blow. There's no way he can be remembered in a positive light after that.

[DarthGizka]

Do you mean the evil conspiracy led by the cowardly Grey Wardens, who lured the Hero of the River Dane to the Landsmeet so that they could ambush and kill him there together with their puppets? They even tried to pin some of their own misdeeds on him, as well as those of some of Loghain's allies to whom he had unfortunately given too much trust and free reign. Nobody believes the lies of the Wardens anyway, after they killed the king at Ostagar. And the Landsmeet people have no credibility either, after refusing their duty of joining the regent in his fight against the Blight threatening the country.

 

Having Loghain join the Wardens and - ideally - take the killing blow against Archi is the only thing that can effectively defuse that time bomb, by eliminating both martyrdom and a specific enemy figure (the Grey Wardens and their allies) from the equation. Otherwise the conflict could smoulder for decades or centuries, and flare up any time. Terrestrian history has plenty of examples. Having Loghain remembered more fondly than he may have deserved is much less of a concern.

[TheLastArchivist]

OMFG there are posts bigger than the Arishok's...horns in the thread now.