230 réponses à ce sujet

[ShadowLordXII]

What blows my mind is that, in DA2, we hear from Alistair himself that Orlais is indeed trying to reconquer "their lost province".

 

And in DA:Origins, when you return to Ostagar (DLC), Loghain comments the king's letters and makes an important remark regarding Cailan's relationship with Empress Celene. He states the attempt to make them marry, at the cost of casting Anora aside, was actually an orlesian plot to dominate Ferelden once again.

 

So, the question is: did Loghain know of any political plot that hinted at Orlais trying to reconquer Ferelden? One that the Warden never hears about in the game? Because if he did, then his actions to stop the Wardens in Ostagar begin to make a lot of sense.

 

We all know Cailian is suggestionable. He is a good person, but a naive king. He could've been manipulated without knowing and got involved with the Empress, without becoming aware he was being used.

 

If that was the case, then Loghain was right to try and get rid of the Wardens before the orlesian Wardens arrived. Orlais would infiltrate Ferelden through the Order and a second civil war would ensue.

However, he didn't know he could never kill the Archdemon without a Warden, so we're fortunate his strategy never works out in the end.

 

Unfortunately, we will never know if Loghain had privileged information. But if he did, then this certainly redeems his character a bit. The alternative would be to consider he merely destroyed the Wardens of Ferelden and arranged Cailan's death to protect Anora and ensure she would remain in power. As Leliana once said: "We will never know for sure."

 

We really don't know if it's the Empress who's trying to regain Ferelden or some rebel nobles as remember, Orlais eventually fell into civil war itself between the empress and another noble.

 

In any case, whether Loghain is right to paranoid about Orlais or not is irrelevant. The Blight was about to destroy Ferelden and Loghain would've single-handedly been responsible for handing it over to the darkspawn on a golden platter. Whether or not he trusted Orlais doesn't change that the Grey Wardens are the only ones who can defeat a Blight as proven by history again and again. Not to mention that it does nothing to justify his direct/indirect crimes against his own people.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Yet he felt the need to accuse the Wardens he left to die of committing regicide to justify it,apparently it was considering it caused a succession crisis.

 

Only a fool would actually admit to leaving a well-liked king to die, even if he was 100% right in doing it. It was lolCailan who insisted on dragging the Grey Wardens along with him to feed his vanity. Had he heeded Loghain's repeated warnings against charging off, there's no reason to think it would have even come to that.

 

You mean the Queen that he ignored and locked in a tower when she started to question his judgement?

 

Howe did that. And Loghain says point-blank that he wouldn't have stood for it if he had known.

 

Ignoring the blatant victim blaming the fact that there's a recorded Blight that shows what happens when a non Warden kills an Archdemon.

 

 

So the Grey Wardens' woeful mishandling of important documents and world-saving information is forgivable because they were victimized? Well, that's convenient. But... maybe they would not have been victimized in the first place if people of Loghain's standing were informed of their importance. Ever think of that?

 

And if everyone should know how awesome the Grey Wardens are, why doesn't Alistair know? The protagonist? Why do both need Riordan to inform them?

 

 

Considering had Loghain not poisoned Eamon it wouldn't have happened...

 

Nor would it have if Connor was in the Circle. If you're going to blame people for un-forseeable outcomes, at least be consistent about it.

 

So betraying people who trust you,leaving them to die and vilifying them to justify it,committing regicide,causing a civil war by making a power grab,condoning torture and slavery of your own people and nearly destroying your country because of paranoia and hate aren't good reasons to hate someone?

 

 

How many times are you going to repeat the same examples while ignoring the context?

 

If the king is doing more harm than good to his country, for example, then no, committing regicide is not good reason to hate someone.

 

There is no universal-good or -evil.

[KaiserShep]

Only a fool would actually admit to leaving a well-liked king to die, even if he was 100% right in doing it. It was lolCailan who insisted on dragging the Grey Wardens along with him to feed his vanity. Had he heeded Loghain's repeated warnings against charging off, there's no reason to think it would have even come to that.

 

Howe did that. And Loghain says point-blank that he wouldn't have stood for it if he had known.

 

So the Grey Wardens' woeful mishandling of important documents and world-saving information is forgivable because they were victimized? Well, that's convenient. But... maybe they would not have been victimized in the first place if people of Loghain's standing were informed of their importance. Ever think of that?

 

And if everyone should know how awesome the Grey Wardens are, why doesn't Alistair know? The protagonist? Why do both need Riordan to inform them?

 

This is why I don't particularly care for the Warden order. In Loghain's place, I can see his reasoning. When I started the Cousland background, I didn't see anything of particular interest in the Grey Warden order, because what's another soldier fighting darkspawn anyway? They keep all that stuff close to the chest, so with that, and their griffins being presumably extinct, what the hell else is there but legends? I'm glad we were able to flat out show resentment and refusal, even if the character was railroaded into becoming a Warden, because they seemed full of it, including Duncan. If not for the Cousland background to involve Howe directly, I would have spared Loghain.

[sylvanaerie]

I believe it kind of depends on the fate the players choose for him.  I can only speak for my games, but in them, Loghain is a traitor who dies a traitor's death in the Landsmeet, for multiple crimes.  In DA2, Varric describes him as a traitor who abandoned the fight when his countrymen needed him most.  I don't know if that is a result of my import (in none of them Loghain lived), or if that's the opinion the average Thedosians are going for.  Certainly, the 'gossip mongers' had a lot to say as the game progressed both for and against his actions.

 

I think the Blight, Civil War and all the monstrosities Loghain visited on his people are too recent for anyone in Ferelden to see objectively, at least at this time.  Certainly, Aveline, as one of the people he abandoned to their fate had a few choice words for the bastard.  Perhaps this changes if it's Loghain who dies to stop the Archdemon, but I don't trust him, and I don't fancy having a blade shoved into my back when I'm busy fighting darkspawn.  That he doesn't isn't something my warden is privy to at the Landsmeet.  Nor is she aware of "only a warden is capable of ending the blight" seeing as how Duncan and Riordan sat on that information, so having another warden on hand isn't something I'm that worried about at the time.  My character has gathered together an army by that time, despite having Loghain opposing her and doesn't need an old has been who has plunged an already endangered nation into a crisis far worse than any invasion by Orlais.

[Shadow Fox]

Only a fool would actually admit to leaving a well-liked king to die, even if he was 100% right in doing it. It was lolCailan who insisted on dragging the Grey Wardens along with him to feed his vanity. Had he heeded Loghain's repeated warnings against charging off, there's no reason to think it would have even come to that.

 

 

Howe did that. And Loghain says point-blank that he wouldn't have stood for it if he had known.

 

 

 

So the Grey Wardens' woeful mishandling of important documents and world-saving information is forgivable because they were victimized? Well, that's convenient. But... maybe they would not have been victimized in the first place if people of Loghain's standing were informed of their importance. Ever think of that?

 

And if everyone should know how awesome the Grey Wardens are, why doesn't Alistair know? The protagonist? Why do both need Riordan to inform them?

 

 

 

Nor would it have if Connor was in the Circle. If you're going to blame people for un-forseeable outcomes, at least be consistent about it.

 

 

 

How many times are you going to repeat the same examples while ignoring the context?

 

If the king is doing more harm than good to his country, for example, then no, committing regicide is not good reason to hate someone.

 

There is no universal-good or -evil.

So Loghain blaming the people he left to die is acceptable to you because Cailan led them into battle?

 

No he just says he wouldn't kill her.

 

Or you know he might have ignored it because he thinks the Grey Wardens are in cahoots with Orlais we will never know and regardless of  whether you agree with the Wardens' secrecy it doesn't change the fact there is documented proof that only Wardens can kill Archdemons.

 

Still doesn't change the fact that Loghain poisoning Eamon caused it to happen.

 

And how many times are you going to excuse Loghain's crimes?

 

Well Cailan wasn't the one who nearly destroyed his country out of hatred for Orlais you know...

[Hanako Ikezawa]

What blows my mind is that, in DA2, we hear from Alistair himself that Orlais is indeed trying to reconquer "their lost province".

 

And in DA:Origins, when you return to Ostagar (DLC), Loghain comments the king's letters and makes an important remark regarding Cailan's relationship with Empress Celene. He states the attempt to make them marry, at the cost of casting Anora aside, was actually an orlesian plot to dominate Ferelden once again.

 

So, the question is: did Loghain know of any political plot that hinted at Orlais trying to reconquer Ferelden? One that the Warden never hears about in the game? Because if he did, then his actions to stop the Wardens in Ostagar begin to make a lot of sense.

 

We all know Cailian is suggestionable. He is a good person, but a naive king. He could've been manipulated without knowing and got involved with the Empress, without becoming aware he was being used.

 

If that was the case, then Loghain was right to try and get rid of the Wardens before the orlesian Wardens arrived. Orlais would infiltrate Ferelden through the Order and a second civil war would ensue.

However, he didn't know he could never kill the Archdemon without a Warden, so we're fortunate his strategy never works out in the end.

 

Unfortunately, we will never know if Loghain had privileged information. But if he did, then this certainly redeems his character a bit. The alternative would be to consider he merely destroyed the Wardens of Ferelden and arranged Cailan's death to protect Anora and ensure she would remain in power. As Leliana once said: "We will never know for sure."

If you talk to Loghain at camp, in one of his dialogues he says he had suspicions on the Cailan and Celene agreement, though maybe that was patched in with the DLC. 

[Monica21]

Yet you're not refuting it...

 

*sigh* Okay, fine. I hope you do realize I've been refuting claims like yours for literally years though.

 

So Loghain blaming the people he left to die is acceptable to you because Cailan led them into battle?

 

No he just says he wouldn't kill her.

 

Or you know he might have ignored it because he thinks the Grey Wardens are in cahoots with Orlais we will never know and regardless of  whether you agree with the Wardens' secrecy it doesn't change the fact there is documented proof that only Wardens can kill Archdemons.

 

Still doesn't change the fact that Loghain poisoning Eamon caused it to happen.

 

And how many times are you going to excuse Loghain's crimes?

 

Well Cailan wasn't the one who nearly destroyed his country out of hatred for Orlais you know...

 

You appear to have an extraordinary lack of knowledge of Loghain's relationship to the Wardens and why he would distrust them in the first place. While I don't think anyone should have to read a book to understand character motivation in a video game, it's worth reading The Stolen Throne and The Calling if for no other reason than people like me don't have to keep explaining this to people like you. Boiled down, a couple of Wardens lied to get Maric to take them into the Deep Roads and then became corrupted themselves and were nearly responsible for his death. Yes, Loghain has very good reasons to mistrust the Wardens because his only experience with them is that they've lied before. And there's also the bit about Loghain's mother being raped and killed in front of him by Chevaliers.

 

In the war council you hear Cailan insist on opening the borders to Orlesian troops, despite refusing his own uncle Arl Eamon's request to send troops. Worth noting is that Redcliffe is far closer than the Orlesian border. In addition, the Wardens are the smallest contingent of those troops he plans to let in. What is it, two legions of Chevaliers? Yeah, because that's a good idea.

 

There is actually no documentation presented in-game that Wardens are the only people who can kill an Archdemon. The only thing anyone knows is that they are the only ones who have killed one. Four hundred years removed from a Blight makes that a very big question. And no Warden is going to be all that willing to tell people they drink Archdemon blood to get special powers. That's bordering on dragon cults and blood magic, if it isn't actually those two things. And given that it's been 400 years since the last Blight, nobody is around to remember anything. Duncan doesn't actually tell anyone why he "believes" it to be a Blight, he just says that he's pretty sure it is. If I were Loghain I wouldn't have any reason to believe him either.

 

For all the accusations Eamon makes against Loghain, he's just as bad. He's just more clever about it. If Alistair rules alone then he will be Eamon's puppet. A poisoned Arl is no biggie. If it were possible to move forward with the game and let Eamon either die or stay poisoned, then I would have. Teagan seemed to have a pretty good grasp on running Redcliffe anyway.

 

Cailan didn't destroy his country because he hated Orlais. He just got himself killed because he was stupid. I fail to see how that makes his actions somehow more defensible.

[Lavaeolus]

It's easy to say "Oh, Loghain did all this, so everyone in Ferelden hates him justifiably", but it fails to take into account that, yes, Loghain is basically one of the sole reasons Ferelden is even free as it is. Protecting Maric and guiding him out the Wilds (the rebellion is kinda in trouble if they lose the heir to the throne, given they're trying to put one on), winning battles thought to be unwinnable, all that jazz... it's fair to say that without Loghain, Ferelden would still be Orlesian territory. Even if he almost did destroy it later.

 

Not gonna say that gives him a free pass, but people are going to remember that. There's a reason without Anora's support it can be really hard to win over the Landsmeet -- Loghain may be becoming hated and despised, but he's still the Hero of Riverdane and one of, if not the, best general in Ferelden. So, he's going to have a very mixed reputation, no matter what.

 

Whether the general citizen of Ferelden ultimately views him as good or bad depends on how you ended the game, I imagine. If he sacrificed himself against the Archdemon, he let himself die to end the threat he almost got Ferelden consumed by. So people view him more favourably. There's a reason that's called the "Redeemer" ending. If he was executed in the Landsmeet... he was executed for treason. There's a degree of finality to death, just like there was with the Ultimate Sacrifice. It sticks out in the history books.

 

If he just became one of the Wardens? Well, I imagine he sort of becomes more liked? Honestly, the average Warden is gonna fade from public eye. I imagine it'll still remain really murked, his rep.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

So Loghain blaming the people he left to die is acceptable to you because Cailan led them into battle?

 

"The people" you're talking about are soldiers. Soldiers accept the risk of dying in battle, and accept the possibility of the battle-plan changing without notice ("no plan survives enemy contact"). That's not criminal. Now, legally, Loghain is only out-of-bounds for defying the fool king's fool orders. However, his choice was either that, or obediently throw away perfectly good soldiers and weaken the army too greatly to face an Orlesian invasion or even the Archdemon itself.

 

In this case, the crime is better than the law. What comes next is a bit more questionable, but the two different crises in his country largely forced his hand.

 

 

[quote]No he just says he wouldn't kill her.[quote]

 

And Howe was thinking of killing her.

 

[quote]Or you know he might have ignored it because he thinks the Grey Wardens are in cahoots with Orlais we will never know and regardless of  whether you agree with the Wardens' secrecy it doesn't change the fact there is documented proof that only Wardens can kill Archdemons.[quote]

 

You're right, he might have ignored it anyway, but that's not more reason to hide such critical information.

 

Point is, if there was a chance for him to support them, it was the Wardens themselves who squandered it.

 

And the documented proof you speak of has mainly been treated as legend/folklore rather than fact because no one could verify it with information.

 

 

Still doesn't change the fact that Loghain poisoning Eamon caused it to happen.

 

No, Connor's possession caused it to happen.

Let me put it this way: take Connor out of the equation, and the demon's violence in Redcliffe would not have happened. Take Loghain out of the picture, Connor would not have become possessed for that particular purpose, but the mere presence of an untrained mage in Redcliffe would have still potentially resulted in the same fiasco that took place anyway. Therein, the fault for any destruction caused by his magic falls on three parties: Connor, the demon, and Connor's parents. Connor can be forgiven because he's a child and doesn't know better. The demon can't be blamed because it is merely acting as is in it's nature to act. Isolde, however, brought everything down on Redcliffe. And Isolde's claim that Eamon didn't know about Connor's magic is highly suspect.

 

And how many times are you going to excuse Loghain's crimes?

 

Ah, so you don't deny ignoring context in your examples. Good to know.

I'm not excusing anything; Loghain did some dirty ish, of which you have mentioned one example (poisoning Eamon, and even then, you fault him for the wrong reasons -- Connor's possession rather than assassination itself). As I said above though, Fereldan was at war, and Loghain's criminal activities were all typically tied in some way to some necessities of fighting the war. Poisoning Eamon was dirty, but better to avoid political deadlock while Darkspawn ravage Fereldan.

 

The Warden can do similarly-dirty things only to end the game being celebrated as a hero no matter what.

And if you're the type to recruit any of Shale, Sten, or Zevran to your party, GTFO with this "crime"-nonsense.

 

Well Cailan wasn't the one who nearly destroyed his country out of hatred for Orlais you know...

 
May I remind you that lolCailan was content to throw his army at a horde of Darkspawn in Ostagar, where they would either be killed in combat or die by contracting the blight, and consequently weakened greatly before the arrival of the Archdemon? Loghain saved a large number of those men by pulling out, and they eventually went on to fight alongside the Wardens to end the blight. And given how rapidly the Darkspawn horde grows, they'd have quickly made any victory at Ostagar irrelevant.

No, lolCailan would have merely destroyed his country (or weakened it enough for Orlais to swoop down on them) out of stupidity, much better than hatred.

 

This is why I don't particularly care for the Warden order. In Loghain's place, I can see his reasoning. When I started the Cousland background, I didn't see anything of particular interest in the Grey Warden order, because what's another soldier fighting darkspawn anyway? They keep all that stuff close to the chest, so with that, and their griffins being presumably extinct, what the hell else is there but legends? I'm glad we were able to flat out show resentment and refusal, even if the character was railroaded into becoming a Warden, because they seemed full of it, including Duncan. If not for the Cousland background to involve Howe directly, I would have spared Loghain.

 
If I were a Cousland I'd marry Anora and spare Loghain as a courtesy. Unless I'm a female, then it would depend entirely on whether I believe Loghain's bad company was a mistake or an indication of his character. Admittedly, I never played that origin, so I can't accurately say how I'd have reacted.

 

 

Anyway, I've wasted spent more than enough time on this discussion, so ... jerrysienfeldleavingcinema.gif

[Monica21]

[quote\If I were a Cousland I'd marry Anora and spare Loghain as a courtesy. Unless I'm a female, then it would depend entirely on whether I believe Loghain's bad company was a mistake or an indication of his character. Admittedly, I never played that origin, so I can't accurately say how I'd have reacted.[/quote]

 

I'm of the opinion that Loghain, no matter what he got involved with later with Howe, didn't know anything about Howe's plans with the Couslands. This opinion is supported Gaider and that Loghain needed political support. At that point in the game, Howe is the second most powerful person  in Ferelden. Loghain can use his troops because they never marched to Ostagar. It's a question of numbers and political support at that point, and Loghain can't maintain it by himself. He's a general and not a politician.

 

My canon Warden is a female Cousland, and she spares Loghain and has Alistair marry Anora. My assumption is that she would have grown up interacting with Loghain on some level, if not Cailan too, because of their rank and fighting together in the war. She would have some degree of respect for what he did as a general and wouldn't be so quick to write him off.

[Wulfram]

10 years on, it probably depends who you're talking about.  If you remember the occupation, or if you had friends at Ostagar.  Or if you had family sold to Tevinter.

 

And whether he killed the archdemon would probably matter, as perhaps would who is the ruler.  If Anora is Queen then "Loghain the tragically flawed hero" is probably a preferred narrative to "Loghain the villain".  While an Alistair ruled Ferelden would probably be trying to quietly write Loghain's part out the story of the rebellion and instead speak of the glories of Maric and sons

[Null_Mime]

I'm just going to leave this here:

 

http://social.biowar...dex/583297&lf=8

 

Don't focus so much on the OP, but insead on David Gaider's comments below.

[ShadowLordXII]

I'm just going to leave this here:

 

http://social.biowar...dex/583297&lf=8

 

Don't focus so much on the OP, but insead on David Gaider's comments below.

 

Good find. Though I'd note that Gaider isn't condemning or condoning any of Loghain's actions.

 

I also like this quote, "There is also the matter of his association with Arl Howe, someone Loghain evidences great distaste for -- but politics makes for strange bedfellows, as they say. In my mind, Loghain always thought that Howe was an ally completely under his control and was probably never able to admit even to himself how much Howe was able to manipulate him. Howe acted on a great number of things without Loghain's involvement or approval, but by then the two were already in bed together -- Loghain was committed, as it were, and after Ostagar doubly so."

 

I'm not really sure if anything in this quote absolves Loghain of his involvement/alliance on the grounds of "necessity", but it is pretty clear that whatever the nature of the alliance, Loghain eventually regretted it and the damage that it would cause.

 

And lastly, "For all his faults, Loghain is not a man to waver once a decision is made -- good or bad. The only reason he gives up, in the end, is because he sees that there is someone else beside himself who can save Ferelden, someone who hasn't made the mistakes he has."

 

Even Loghain himself at this point will admit that his actions are destroying Ferelden rather than saving it and is relieved when the Warden comes along. He'll even accept death if given to him. He may have screwed up in more ways than one, but at least he has the honor to admit it.

[Lavaeolus]

@above: "All of this can be rightly called my fault. Whether or not you can do better remains to be seen; but if you can make this the end, Warden, I will follow you. I swear it."

[Shadow Fox]

It's easy to say "Oh, Loghain did all this, so everyone in Ferelden hates him justifiably", but it fails to take into account that, yes, Loghain is basically one of the sole reasons Ferelden is even free as it is. Protecting Maric and guiding him out the Wilds (the rebellion is kinda in trouble if they lose the heir to the throne, given they're trying to put one on), winning battles thought to be unwinnable, all that jazz... it's fair to say that without Loghain, Ferelden would still be Orlesian territory. Even if he almost did destroy it later.

 

Not gonna say that gives him a free pass, but people are going to remember that. There's a reason without Anora's support it can be really hard to win over the Landsmeet -- Loghain may be becoming hated and despised, but he's still the Hero of Riverdane and one of, if not the, best general in Ferelden. So, he's going to have a very mixed reputation, no matter what.

 

Whether the general citizen of Ferelden ultimately views him as good or bad depends on how you ended the game, I imagine. If he sacrificed himself against the Archdemon, he let himself die to end the threat he almost got Ferelden consumed by. So people view him more favourably. There's a reason that's called the "Redeemer" ending. If he was executed in the Landsmeet... he was executed for treason. There's a degree of finality to death, just like there was with the Ultimate Sacrifice. It sticks out in the history books.

 

If he just became one of the Wardens? Well, I imagine he sort of becomes more liked? Honestly, the average Warden is gonna fade from public eye. I imagine it'll still remain really murked, his rep.

I was disputing the argument that no one had good reason to hate him and on the other hand should his crimes be ignored and excused because he's a war hero?That's quite a slippery slope.

 

That's a good point but still his recent actions will be fresh in the mind of many Fereldens as well.

 

That's true

[Xilizhra]

Loghain was a man with good intentions combined with amazingly bad decisions. Leaving Ostagar could be considered shaky, but I think it's justifiable. After that, however, he should have let Anora handle the political side of things instead of throwing himself into an arena he knew nothing about, destroying Ferelden's internal cohesion and jeopardizing the effort against the Blight even further. Not to mention that his paranoia went way too far when aimed at the Grey Wardens... and that whole issue with enslaving the Alienage, which is the least excusable of them all.

[Mike3207]

Ten years after Origins is not what I call recent actions. More than anything, I think the Fereldans will want Loghain to still be around if they're facing the possibility of an Orlesian invasion.

[Null_Mime]

Good find. Though I'd note that Gaider isn't condemning or condoning any of Loghain's actions.

 

I also like this quote, "There is also the matter of his association with Arl Howe, someone Loghain evidences great distaste for -- but politics makes for strange bedfellows, as they say. In my mind, Loghain always thought that Howe was an ally completely under his control and was probably never able to admit even to himself how much Howe was able to manipulate him. Howe acted on a great number of things without Loghain's involvement or approval, but by then the two were already in bed together -- Loghain was committed, as it were, and after Ostagar doubly so."

 

I'm not really sure if anything in this quote absolves Loghain of his involvement/alliance on the grounds of "necessity", but it is pretty clear that whatever the nature of the alliance, Loghain eventually regretted it and the damage that it would cause.

 

And lastly, "For all his faults, Loghain is not a man to waver once a decision is made -- good or bad. The only reason he gives up, in the end, is because he sees that there is someone else beside himself who can save Ferelden, someone who hasn't made the mistakes he has."

 

Even Loghain himself at this point will admit that his actions are destroying Ferelden rather than saving it and is relieved when the Warden comes along. He'll even accept death if given to him. He may have screwed up in more ways than one, but at least he has the honor to admit it.

My favorite quote was his thoughts on leaving Cailan to die.

 

"The darkspawn forces were getting stronger with each engagement. Loghain knew that, and knew that it wasn't going to keep being so easy. I would say that he knew what might happen the minute Cailan made his strategy clear: rely on the Grey Wardens to win the day. In my mind, Loghain still wasn't certain that he would walk away -- and if he thought that riding into the valley could have won the battle, he probably would have done so. Whether his belief that this couldn't happen was the truth or just his twisted perception of it is something you can decide for yourself. Certainly the darkspawn horde at the last battle was far bigger than anyone had anticipated.

The decision, I think, was made at the moment Loghain saw the beacon lit. He prepared for the possibility, as he prepared for everything, but I don't think he decided to go through with it until right then. He was hoping that Cailan would see reason. He didn't expect him to, but was hoping he would."

 

And also

 

"He once made a promise to Maric that he would never allow one man to be more important than the Kingdom -- and in his eyes Cailan was recklessly endangering both himself and his kingdom. Whether that error in judgement condemns him right there is up to you."

 

 

Source repost for page 3: http://social.biowar...dex/583297&lf=8

[Monica21]

I was disputing the argument that no one had good reason to hate him and on the other hand should his crimes be ignored and excused because he's a war hero?That's quite a slippery slope.

 

That's a good point but still his recent actions will be fresh in the mind of many Fereldens as well.

 

That's true

 

I think that quite a lot of Fereldens, especially the City Elves, have a darn good reason to hate him. I would have a hard time find a good RP reason to keep him alive in a CE playthrough. It doesn't mean that I hate hime however, and it doesn't mean he never made a mistake. Loghain readily admits his mistakes. The difference between people who don't hesitate to behead Loghain every single playthrough and those who at least hesitate, is whether they believe there is some justification for his actions. Whether I agree with what he did or not is irrelevant. In the end, he did far more good that harm to Ferelden. As someone else said, there wouldn't be a Ferelden to save if it weren't for Loghain.

[Shadow Fox]

I think that quite a lot of Fereldens, especially the City Elves, have a darn good reason to hate him. I would have a hard time find a good RP reason to keep him alive in a CE playthrough. It doesn't mean that I hate hime however, and it doesn't mean he never made a mistake. Loghain readily admits his mistakes. The difference between people who don't hesitate to behead Loghain every single playthrough and those who at least hesitate, is whether they believe there is some justification for his actions. Whether I agree with what he did or not is irrelevant. In the end, he did far more good that harm to Ferelden. As someone else said, there wouldn't be a Ferelden to save if it weren't for Loghain.

True and sorry if I implied otherwise but I have nothing against Loghain's fans in general it's only when they refuse to acknowledge that he at the least committed or allowed morally dubious actions and act like Ferelden should just ignore if his actions harmed them because he's a war hero.

 

Ten years after Origins is not what I call recent actions. More than anything, I think the Fereldans will want Loghain to still be around if they're facing the possibility of an Orlesian invasion.

 

It's a heck of a lot more recent than when the Orlesian Occupation ended though.

[Monica21]

He is mad crazy evil paranoid now. Too obsessed with another country rather than the blight which should be his concern. No doubt he was once a great general and a great man. I would have loved to see that aspect of him as I think it would have made for a fine character. Now, I really just want to kill him and his raging madness. I even kill Ser Catherine now too because she is even worse following him blindly while seeing what he has become and knowing he pulled his troop. I actually might recruit him in a future run because I think his real problem is that he's lost sight of what the true issue is seeing old enemies that really wanted to be allies according to document from return to ostagar. But given he sees them as the enemy he fought long and hard against, I can truly understand his fear. But his job is to see the bigger picture. The greatest generals do. He was too busy focusing on an old enemy that was willing to help but he was too busy with past hates.

 

You know the old saying of "just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not after you"? Well, Loghain is still right about Orlais and he's right about Cailan being ready to hand Ferelden over on a silver platter. The idea that the only thing he should be worried about is the blight is myopic at best.

[Shadow Fox]

You know the old saying of "just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not after you"? Well, Loghain is still right about Orlais and he's right about Cailan being ready to hand Ferelden over on a silver platter. The idea that the only thing he should be worried about is the blight is myopic at best.

I think it's more he should have dealt with the Blight first.

[ShadowLordXII]

You know the old saying of "just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not after you"? Well, Loghain is still right about Orlais and he's right about Cailan being ready to hand Ferelden over on a silver platter. The idea that the only thing he should be worried about is the blight is myopic at best.

 

Orlais wasn't threatening Ferelden in 9:30 Dragon. They were actually going to send much needed help against a much bigger legitimate threat. Even if Orlais was going to become a threat eventually (7 years down the road mind you and it's only certain parties), that doesn't change how the blight was the very real and present danger. The Wardens in Orlais saw this, but were willing to consolidate and let Ferelden destroy itself because of Loghain's attitude. The Antivan Crows turn on Loghain and eventually side with the Warden because they realize that he's an idiot and the wardens are the only hope of stopping the blight before it reaches Antiva.

 

What's so near sighted about prioritizing the Blight? If anything, being so myopic (even if reasonably) about Orlais nearly caused Loghain to hand Ferelden over to the Darkspawn on a silver platter. What's honestly worst, Orlais attacking again or the darkspawn killing everyone and turning all females into Broomothers?

 

The answer is obvious.