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[Mike3207]

Orlais wasn't threatening Ferelden in 9:30 Dragon. They were actually going to send much needed help against a much bigger legitimate threat. Even if Orlais was going to become a threat eventually (7 years down the road mind you and it's only certain parties), that doesn't change how the blight was the very real and present danger. The Wardens in Orlais saw this, but were willing to consolidate and let Ferelden destroy itself because of Loghain's attitude. The Antivan Crows turn on Loghain and eventually side with the Warden because they realize that he's an idiot and the wardens are the only hope of stopping the blight before it reaches Antiva.

 

What's so near sighted about prioritizing the Blight? If anything, being so myopic (even if reasonably) about Orlais nearly caused Loghain to hand Ferelden over to the Darkspawn on a silver platter. What's honestly worst, Orlais attacking again or the darkspawn killing everyone and turning all females into Broomothers?

 

The answer is obvious.

We don't know if Orlais was going to threaten Ferelden or not in 9:30. If the negotiations went well with Cailan and the Landsmeet, maybe not. If those failed, they'd keep open the possibility of allowing the Orlesians Wardens to be sent in-but only if the Chevaliers went with them. In any case, Loghain refused to let any wardens in and the point became moot.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

We don't know if Orlais was going to threaten Ferelden or not in 9:30. If the negotiations went well with Cailan and the Landsmeet, maybe not. If those failed, they'd keep open the possibility of allowing the Orlesians Wardens to be sent in-but only if the Chevaliers went with them. In any case, Loghain refused to let any wardens in and the point became moot.

According to Gaider, Celene had designs on Ferelden. Loghain was wrong about the details (the conclusion he jumps to after reading Cailan's letters in RtO, while logically tenous, was apparently true), but not on the very basic point. (Or at least that's what I saw second-hand. So it might not be true, I suppose.)

[TEWR]

How does Ferelden remember Loghain? According to the second item pack, his subjects at Gwaren eventually burned down his mansion and looted his belongings. He's (rightly) reviled as a traitor.

 

Yes to the looting, no to the burning.

 

Considering we also hear from Bodahn that many people are glad he's still alive and that he can be redeemed, I'd say he's not reviled as a traitor by everyone. Gwaren as you mentioned, maybe, though "rightly" isn't there at all. Ostagar wasn't a betrayal.

 

What follows after that is perspective.

 

People are going to view him as a traitor probably because he lost and everyone else won. History is written by the victors and all that, with nuances being thrown to the wind.

 

Though I do hate how regardless of what transpires, that codex labels Loghain as a traitor at Ostagar. Fact is it wasn't.

 

Orlais wasn't threatening Ferelden in 9:30 Dragon. They were actually going to send much needed help against a much bigger legitimate threat.

 

Riordan gives off a number that's far larger then what Loghain was given. Loghain was told four legions would come, Riordan says two dozen divisions of cavalry.

 

Of course, a division is a recent (and LARGE) military unit, so much so that Orlais having such strength and sending it whilst remaining strong is stretching it. Most likely Bioware, as always, dropped the ball on military matters.

 

But it's in the game, so we must accept it as canon. Orlais was going to send two dozen divisions of soldiers and Loghain was only told four legions would come.

 

Don't know about you, but if I'm told a number's gonna come and I see a larger host.... I'm gonna have some second guesses on their altruism.

[Shadow Fox]

Yes to the looting, no to the burning.

 

Considering we also hear from Bodahn that many people are glad he's still alive and that he can be redeemed, I'd say he's not reviled as a traitor by everyone. Gwaren as you mentioned, maybe, though "rightly" isn't there at all. Ostagar wasn't a betrayal.

 

What follows after that is perspective.

 

People are going to view him as a traitor probably because he lost and everyone else won. History is written by the victors and all that, with nuances being thrown to the wind.

 

Though I do hate how regardless of what transpires, that codex labels Loghain as a traitor at Ostagar. Fact is it wasn't.

 

 

 

Riordan gives off a number that's far larger then what Loghain was given. Loghain was told four legions would come, Riordan says two dozen divisions of cavalry.

 

Of course, a division is a recent (and LARGE) military unit, so much so that Orlais having such strength and sending it whilst remaining strong is stretching it. Most likely Bioware, as always, dropped the ball on military matters.

 

But it's in the game, so we must accept it as canon. Orlais was going to send two dozen divisions of soldiers and Loghain was only told four legions would come.

 

Don't know about you, but if I'm told a number's gonna come and I see a larger host.... I'm gonna have some second guesses on their altruism.

Whether it was justified or not he did betray the army by leaving them to die.

[TheLastArchivist]

THIS=> it's worth reading The Stolen Throne and The Calling.(...)  Boiled down, a couple of Wardens lied to get Maric to take them into the Deep Roads and then became corrupted themselves and were nearly responsible for his death. Yes, Loghain has very good reasons to mistrust the Wardens because his only experience with them is that they've lied before. And there's also the bit about Loghain's mother being raped and killed in front of him by Chevaliers.

 

ALSO THIS=> In the war council you hear Cailan insist on opening the borders to Orlesian troops, despite refusing his own uncle Arl Eamon's request to send troops. Worth noting is that Redcliffe is far closer than the Orlesian border. In addition, the Wardens are the smallest contingent of those troops he plans to let in. What is it, two legions of Chevaliers? Yeah, because that's a good idea.

 

AND THIS=> Duncan doesn't actually tell anyone why he "believes" it to be a Blight, he just says that he's pretty sure it is. If I were Loghain I wouldn't have any reason to believe him either.

 

 

 

After one reads The Stolen Throne, it becomes clear that Loghain is not a traitor. He was one of the two liberators of Ferelden. And now, the same chevaliers that abused his people in the past threaten to return to his country through the Grey Warden Order. And what's worse: with Maric's son consent.

 

Loghain is a patriot who defended the right cause using the wrong means. He mistakenly ignored the darkspawn threat and the fact that only Wardens can end the Blight. Why? Because like US and like ALISTAIR, we DON'T KNOW WHY only Wardens can do it. We are not aware that the soul of the Archdemon seeks the nearest tainted person. So Loghain, having the information he had available and unwilling to let Orlais find its way inside Ferelden border, sought alliances (people like Howe, who unfortunately had questionable character) to give a coup d'État.

 

Was Loghain a traitor?

To Ferelden? No.

To its people? No.

To the king? Yes.

To the Grey Wardens? Yes.

 

But consider this. If he was truly a bad person, a villain and an unforgivable traitor, why does he confess the mess that Fereden is in now "can rightfully be called his fault"  (quoting his own words in camp) and then offers himself to make the Ultimate Sacrifice? He even admits that YOU -not him!- are the hero that saved Ferelden, that saved the nation from danger.

 

If he was someone like Howe, someone who betrayed his people and his king for selfish reasons, without precedents to justify his actions, then he would prefer to go down cursing you than to admit his guilt and offer to accept his punishment (becoming a Grey Warden or being killed after the duel).

[Lavaeolus]

 

Whether it was justified or not he did betray the army by leaving them to die.

 

Well, if they die anyway, it's hardly betraying them to leave. It's just a tactical retreat. Note that whatever you think (Ostagar is left ambiguous), Loghain definitely thinks the battle was unwinnable. However, in the eyes of the average Thedosian, most tend to view Loghain as the reason it was lost, rightly or wrongly (going off Varric's description and others). Interesting convo between Wynne and Loghain:

• Loghain: You can stop scowling at me, madam.
• Wynne: Did I need your permission? I see.
• Loghain: Fine. I confess: It was entirely my idea that Uldred consort with demons. I had a dastardly scheme in which the utter destruction of Ferelden's best weapon would benefit me, personally.
• Loghain: Are you satisfied now?
• Wynne: Do you think your deal with Uldred was where you earned my contempt? I was at Ostagar. I witnessed Cailan's murder.
• Loghain: Such loyalty.
• Wynne: What is that supposed to mean?
• Loghain: Did you try to save him, then? My apologies.
• Wynne: I was fortunate to escape with my life!
• Loghain: So you didn't rush to your king's rescue? I see. Then both of us left the boy to die.
• Wynne: I was no general at the head of an army! I could never have reached him!
• Loghain: And I had no magic that could break those darkspawn ranks. But perhaps you think I ought to have tried, regardless. No doubt, the lives of mere soldiers are cheap in the eyes of the Circle.
• Wynne: And what of all the soldiers who died with their king? Their lives were worth nothing to you.
• Loghain: You think so, do you? I knew their names, mage, and where they came from. I knew their families.
• Loghain: I do not know how you mages determine the value of things, but they were my men. I know exactly how much I lost that day.

   

[Xilizhra]

I would guess that "division" might mean something different in Thedas than it does IRL.

 

Also, Loghain is most definitely a traitor to those people of Ferelden he sold into slavery.

[Lavaeolus]

 

He confessed because he is an arrogant smug bastard who believes his actions were right and they were not. He confesses because he thinks he is justified in what he did and therefore, it's not really as if he is confessing but more like he is stating that he did what he had to do and don't care who the casualties were. Much like that scene where Jack Nicholson screams at Tom Cruise in court "You can't handle the truth." (A Few Good Men - might be a bit before your time). As it turns out, Nicholson's character is a crazy bastard who believes the ends justify the means. Loghain is an EXACT REPLICA of that character. Both were wrong.

 

 

 

Loghain is perfectly willing to admit he's in wrong, at least after the fact. Hell, take him to the Archdemon, and he'll beg you to to allow him to do it because: "I've done so much wrong. Please, let me do one last thing right." (Quote not entirely accurate, probably.)

[Lavaeolus]

Loghain may leave before the king dies, but that doesn't mean charging in then and there would still give him enough to time to reach him. It takes time to get through the darkspawn, locate the king, etc. Especially if said king is on the frontlines.

[Shadow Fox]

THIS=> it's worth reading The Stolen Throne and The Calling.(...)  Boiled down, a couple of Wardens lied to get Maric to take them into the Deep Roads and then became corrupted themselves and were nearly responsible for his death. Yes, Loghain has very good reasons to mistrust the Wardens because his only experience with them is that they've lied before. And there's also the bit about Loghain's mother being raped and killed in front of him by Chevaliers.

 

ALSO THIS=> In the war council you hear Cailan insist on opening the borders to Orlesian troops, despite refusing his own uncle Arl Eamon's request to send troops. Worth noting is that Redcliffe is far closer than the Orlesian border. In addition, the Wardens are the smallest contingent of those troops he plans to let in. What is it, two legions of Chevaliers? Yeah, because that's a good idea.

 

AND THIS=> Duncan doesn't actually tell anyone why he "believes" it to be a Blight, he just says that he's pretty sure it is. If I were Loghain I wouldn't have any reason to believe him either.

 

 

 

After one reads The Stolen Throne, it becomes clear that Loghain is not a traitor. He was one of the two liberators of Ferelden. And now, the same chevaliers that abused his people in the past threaten to return to his country through the Grey Warden Order. And what's worse: with Maric's son consent.

 

Loghain is a patriot who defended the right cause using the wrong means. He mistakenly ignored the darkspawn threat and the fact that only Wardens can end the Blight. Why? Because like US and like ALISTAIR, we DON'T KNOW WHY only Wardens can do it. We are not aware that the soul of the Archdemon seeks the nearest tainted person. So Loghain, having the information he had available and unwilling to let Orlais find its way inside Ferelden border, sought alliances (people like Howe, who unfortunately had questionable character) to give a coup d'État.

 

Was Loghain a traitor?

To Ferelden? No.

To its people? No.

To the king? Yes.

To the Grey Wardens? Yes.

 

But consider this. If he was truly a bad person, a villain and an unforgivable traitor, why does he confess the mess that Fereden is in now "can rightfully be called his fault"  (quoting his own words in camp) and then offers himself to make the Ultimate Sacrifice? He even admits that YOU -not him!- is the hero that saved Ferelden, that saved the nation from danger.

 

If he was someone like Howe, someone who betrayed his people and his king for selfish reasons, without precedents to justify his actions, then he would prefer to go down cursing you than to admit his guilt and offer to accept his punishment (becoming a Grey Warden or being killed after the duel).

I fail to see how almost destroying your country because you can't let go of a grudge is admirable it's understandable and human certainly but if he truly had Ferelden's best interests at heart he would have looked past it to deal with the greater threat.

 

There's a documented Blight that shows only Wardens can truly kill Archdemons the how and why don't matter.

 

Considering he condoned torture and slavery of his people and poisoned an arl and pretty much admits he'd rather see his country burn then let Orlais set foot in it I'd say he did betray his country and people.

 

Feeling bad about it doesn't make him any less guilty in my eyes.

[TheLastArchivist]

Judgement Day will come and the issue of Loghain's morality and loyalty will still be going on...

[TheLastArchivist]

I would guess that "division" might mean something different in Thedas than it does IRL.

 

Also, Loghain is most definitely a traitor to those people of Ferelden he sold into slavery.

But wasn't it Howe who sold people (elves) into slavery? And he did it behind Loghain's back?

[Lavaeolus]

I fail to see how almost destroying your country because you can't let go of a grudge is admirable it's understandable and human certainly but if he truly had Ferelden's best interests at heart he would have looked past it to deal with the greater threat.

 

There's a documented Blight that shows only Wardens can truly kill Archdemons the how and why don't matter.

No one knows it's a Blight initially (the Wardens do, but everyone doubts them, king included, partly because Duncan refuses to say "We can sense this stuff"). At this point, in both Loghain's eyes and almost everyone else's, this really is just a whole load of darkspawn. Nobody knows that Wardens are needed to end Blights, either. Just that they're skilled at fighting them. Grey Warden confidentiality really bit them in the behind there.

 

Judgement Day will come and the issue of Loghain's morality and loyalty will still be going on...

You know it, man.

[TheLastArchivist]

There's a documented Blight that shows only Wardens can truly kill Archdemons the how and why don't matter.

 

Is there? Well, does it explain why the Wardens are the only beings on Thedas with the power to kill the beast?

Or does the text go something like: "throughout the Ages, the Wardens have united peoples from different origins to stem the tides of evil."?

 

Because no text in Thedas would mention a secret from the Grey Warden Order. And especially one that implies the death of the Warden who kills the Archdemon.

 

As Riordan said, how would they recruit people to join the Order if they knew the Joining could be fatal and that, even if you surmounted countless obstacles and survived hundreds of life-and-death battles, you could still die at the very end in a "noble sacrifice"? I don't know about you, but the Warden expects to return from the Blight as a hero and then he finds out -or doesn't, for that matter- that he'll return as a corpse.

 

What ancient text about the Wardens would mention that? And if it did, how come no one around you except Riordan knows about this?

[Shadow Fox]

No. Loghain admits it in the landsmeet. How is the one who did the torture and took the queen but did it in league with Loghain as they were working together though Loghain won't admit that and blames Howe though he clearly knew what was happening.

That or Loghain is woefully incompetent at ruling.