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[Lavaeolus]

@above: I think it's canon that Loghain really is woefully incompetent at ruling, regardless of the Howe issue. He's a good general -- hence why he's been able to do so well fighting in the current civil war. But, if he was better at the actual ruling, there probably wouldn't be a civil war to be fighting.

[TheLastArchivist]

Hey, btw, I don't neither love, nor hate Loghain. I think some of his reasons were right, others were not. And overall, his political strategy was mixed. He had to both deal with Orlais's subtle threat and the Blight. And without having full information to begin with.

 

So, I give him about 50% of credit for trying, at the least. Loghain was never born for politics. He was a wartime general (well, he was made one by Maric...sort of). It's no wonder he didn't know how to control Howe or how to advise Cailan not to trust the Chevaliers.

 

That's why it's so hard to justify everything he did. His morality will always be an issue. He had different concerns and had to deal with them using questionable means in a field that wasn't his own: politics. Which, of course, doesn't justify all of his actions.

[Shadow Fox]

Is there? Well, does it explain why the Wardens are the only beings on Thedas with the power to kill the beast?

Or does the text go something like: "throughout the Ages, the Wardens have united peoples from different origins to stem the tides of evil."?

 

Because no text in Thedas would mention a secret from the Grey Warden Order. And especially one that implies the death of the Warden who kills the Archdemon.

 

As Riordan said, how would they recruit people to join the Order if they knew the Joining could be fatal and that, even if you surmounted countless obstacles and survived hundreds of life-and-death battles, you could still die at the very end in a "noble sacrifice"? I don't know about you, but the Warden expects to return from the Blight as a hero and then he finds out -or doesn't, for that matter- that he'll return as a corpse.

 

What ancient text about the Wardens would mention that? And if it did, how come no one around you except Riordan knows about this?

http://dragonage.wik...ki/First_Blight

[Lavaeolus]

Well, I never let that traitor live past the landsmeet or if I do, I never take him over alistair. NEVER. And honestly, it really just comes off as cheap writing at that point because if at the last minute after the landmeet and some of the conversations I've seen on youtube with him in you camp, he is one venemous bastard. That he suddenly has this desire to redeem himself after seeing the wrongness of his ways is poor writing at it's best unless there was some very well done arc for him somewhere between him being a tool at the camp and the final battle. Doubt it though. Not meaning this as an attack on you in any way. It just seems that for such a thing to happen there needs to be an arc that would have to be pretty noteworthy for him to go from one extreme to the other. So it's just cheap redemption and lazy writing that people now use to justify loghain being a good guy or a misunderstood one when really, we all got a pretty good picture of who he was from the very start.

It's really not that shocking, once you get to know him. Loghain already shows signs of regret from before you even confront him, being reluctant to send assassins after you, constantly brooding, so on. He really isn't that venomous in camp -- unless you're deliberately be mean to him by saying things like "This is your punishment, don't forget that", "I hate you and you're a traitor", "Oh, hey, about this: slaver". Even when he partly defends his actions, he says of the slavery "They're but a drop in an ocean [of pain I've caused or something, I don't remember this bit well] now." "The countless that died in the Civil War that followed!"

 

His only real meanness is initially assuming you've got it in for him, and while he's a bit gruff, he's still perfectly nice to you (once he realizes that, no, you're not keeping him around to torture or something) and focused on the job. It's very easy to befriend him, especially once you start asking about his daughter's childhood, his friendship with Maric, etc.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

On the other hand, we all seem to be avoiding the issue that loghain basically just staged a coup. Letting the king die on the battlefield then taking control of ferelden which drives it into civil war is basically a coup, is it not?

If you do so in the interests of regime change, yes. But there's credible alternative reasons for Loghain to have done so, and this reason depends on Loghain thinking that he gains more than he loses from this regime change. Don't forget that he's already got a daughter on the throne and a disinterested ruler leaving her most of the work. Yes, this was about to change drastically if Cailan's divorce plot went off, but Loghain's tone when he comes to believe this (I won't say he "finds out" because despite Loghain thinking the letters are proof, they are merely evidence) indicates that he had no idea Cailan was planning to go this far.

[Lavaeolus]

I give him about 25% but I hear you on this. Cailan was a bit too naive and what we see of him makes him look that and worse. He's upset there aren't more darkspawn? I can see how loghain would feel he had no choice. Makes me wonder if there was a subtle intent to show that loghain wanted the king dead for being such a naive fool which he pretty much was to a fair degree.

While Cailan being a naive fool probably didn't encourage Loghain to prioritise his survival above all else, Loghain probably didn't actually want Cailan dead. I mean, Maric and Rowan were Loghain's best buds (Rowan maybe something a little more), and Loghain wouldn't really want to kill their son unless he really thinks it's necessary. Besides, trying to convince the king to back down and stay off the lines isn't something you really do if you're counting on them going in (so you can abandon them).
 

On the other hand, we all seem to be avoiding the issue that loghain basically just staged a coup. Letting the king die on the battlefield then taking control of ferelden which drives it into civil war is basically a coup, is it not?

Well, it's not really done with the intent to become regent, but since he does take the claim so as to guide Ferelden during wartime, it could arguably count as one.

[Monica21]

On the other hand, we all seem to be avoiding the issue that loghain basically just staged a coup. Letting the king die on the battlefield then taking control of ferelden which drives it into civil war is basically a coup, is it not?

 

No, you think it's a coup whereas other people understand things like "tactical retreat." Cailan was the one who insisted on fighting on the front lines, despite Loghain repeatedly attempting to talk him out of it. Cailan is responsible for his own death, and no one else. In addition, how can you possibly know that Loghain could have made it to Cailan in time to pull him from the field? What makes you think Loghain even knew where Cailan was? Mary Kirby has said that Loghain's view of the valley was obstructed, hence the need for the signal in the first place. You have no idea what Loghain did and didn't know or what he could and couldn't see and are doing nothing more than making wild accusations. The continued assumption that he committed regicide by darkspawn are some of the most ludicrous claims in opposition to Loghain. You know what a good way is to kill a king? Kill him yourself in the middle of battle and don't hope your enemy does it for you.

[Jaison1986]

Hey, btw, I don't neither love, nor hate Loghain. I think some of his reasons were right, others were not. And overall, his political strategy was mixed. He had to both deal with Orlais's subtle threat and the Blight. And without having full information to begin with.

 

So, I give him about 50% of credit for trying, at the least. Loghain was never born for politics. He was a wartime general (well, he was made one by Maric...sort of). It's no wonder he didn't know how to control Howe or how to advise Cailan not to trust the Chevaliers.

 

That's why it's so hard to justify everything he did. His morality will always be an issue. He had different concerns and had to deal with them using questionable means in a field that wasn't his own: politics. Which, of course, doesn't justify all of his actions.

 

That's pretty much my opinion on Loghain. A lot of things about his character depends on perspective.

[Monica21]

Oh wait. I totally missed all this. Where is it in the game? I heard Cailin had a mistress, but I didn't get beyond that.

 

Jesus. Return to Ostagar. Cailan was planning on leaving Anora and marrying Celene.

[Lavaeolus]

Oh wait. I totally missed all this. Where is it in the game? I heard Cailin had a mistress, but I didn't get beyond that.

 
Return to Ostagar. Letters reveal that Cailan might have been planning to divorce the possibly-barren Anora and get with Empress Celene, merging the two nations. Alistair and Wynne mostly gloss over it, and say "ooh, peace at last", but if you bring Loghain and Wynne, he views it a lot more cynically, and Wynne doesn't really fight the point much after an initial mention of peace.
 
This was originally part of the main plot in the base game, but they changed it. (Loghain would've found out about it).

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Oh wait. I totally missed all this. Where is it in the game? I heard Cailin had a mistress, but I didn't get beyond that.

There's letters in Return To Ostagar that detail Cailan's attempt at an alliance with Celene and Eamon's desire that he find a new wife. Loghain adds up the letter with regards to Eamon's attempts at securing a divorce with Celene's somewhat familiar tone in the letters and believes this to be proof Cailan wanted to marry Celene. It's not logically proof, of course. It's merely evidence. However, apparently Gaider stated somewhere that the conclusion Loghain jumped to was correct. Though I keep pointing out that Loghain clearly didn't know during the Battle At Ostagar from his tone when he responds to these letters during RtO.

[Monica21]

I think the way he says whatever his line is as he is leaving the camp after the scene at the large table in ostagar implies he expects him to die. I remember in my very first playthrough I felt really bad about what was to come after loghain's remark as he leaves. Because it was my first time playing and I was concerned with many other things in the game (like just finding my way around the damp map and getting my mouse clicks on the map to actually get my character moving (wish I could have used the damn xbox controller *sigh*), I didn't really how damning that moment was. It stuck in my mind and gave me an ominous feeling but it was only on my second playthrough that I could see him as fully expecting Cailin to die. Did you ever notice that? It's quite compelling actually.

 

Yes, I did notice it. It's far less compelling when you take the entire conversation they just had into account though, and then you realize what an idiot Cailan is.

[Lavaeolus]

Oh, there's no doubt that Loghain had begun considering leaving the battle beforehand. But if he could've retreated, saved all the soldiers, and saved Cailan, he probably would've preferred that (well, he probably would've preferred to actually be able to win the battle, of course). I imagine Loghain fully expects Cailan to not back down, and is very seriously considering his betrayal/retreat/whatever. So Cailan dying is a very real possibility to him.

[Monica21]

Oh, there's no doubt that Loghain had begun considering leaving the battle beforehand. But if he could've retreated, saved all the soldiers, and saved Cailan, he probably would've preferred that (well, he probably would've preferred to actually be able to win the battle, of course). I imagine Loghain fully expects Cailan to not back down, and is very seriously considering his betrayal/retreat/whatever. So Cailan dying is a very real possibility to him.

 

I think Gaider's comments pretty well prove that Loghain expected Cailan to get himself killed rather than the more insidious line of thinking that Loghain went to Ostagar to kill Cailan.

[Shadow Fox]

 
Return to Ostagar. Letters reveal that Cailan might have been planning to divorce the possibly-barren Anora and get with Empress Celene, merging the two nations. Alistair and Wynne mostly gloss over it, and say "ooh, peace at last", but if you bring Loghain and Wynne, he views it a lot more cynically, and Wynne doesn't really fight the point much after an initial mention of peace.
 
This was originally part of the main plot in the base game, but they changed it. (Loghain would've found out about it).

That's because they are idealists and have no reason to doubt Orlais' intentions whereas Loghain is a pragmatic who has every reason to.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Yes, I did notice it. It's far less compelling when you take the entire conversation they just had into account though, and then you realize what an idiot Cailan is.

Note especially Cailan's line that indicates that Loghain is attempting to keep Cailan away from the front lines, and Cailan's annoyed tone which indicates this is not the first attempt.

[Lavaeolus]

I think Gaider's comments pretty well prove that Loghain expected Cailan to get himself killed rather than the more insidious line of thinking that Loghain went to Ostagar to kill Cailan.

I'm not saying he's planning on killing Cailan, but he's still readying himself for the fact Cailan very well might die.

[Monica21]

 

I'm not saying he's planning on killing Cailan, but he's still readying himself for the fact Cailan very well might die.

 

Yes, I'm agreeing with you. Apologies if that was not clear.

[Lavaeolus]

No probs, then.

[Shadow Fox]

No, you think it's a coup whereas other people understand things like "tactical retreat." Cailan was the one who insisted on fighting on the front lines, despite Loghain repeatedly attempting to talk him out of it. Cailan is responsible for his own death, and no one else. In addition, how can you possibly know that Loghain could have made it to Cailan in time to pull him from the field? What makes you think Loghain even knew where Cailan was? Mary Kirby has said that Loghain's view of the valley was obstructed, hence the need for the signal in the first place. You have no idea what Loghain did and didn't know or what he could and couldn't see and are doing nothing more than making wild accusations. The continued assumption that he committed regicide by darkspawn are some of the most ludicrous claims in opposition to Loghain. You know what a good way is to kill a king? Kill him yourself in the middle of battle and don't hope your enemy does it for you.

No him trying to seize power right after the king died is what makes it a coup,maybe he could maybe he couldn't we'll never know,If he intended to leave Cailan to die from the start it is regicide and it is if you're a suicidal idiot it's far smarter to use enemies to do it as to not risk implicating yourself by doing it yourself in a battle where potential survivors can see you.

[Aurelet]

But wasn't it Howe who sold people (elves) into slavery? And he did it behind Loghain's back?

 

No the slaver papers were signed by Loghain