230 réponses à ce sujet

[Monica21]

No him trying to seize power right after the king died is what makes it a coup,

Actually, that's not what a coup is. Cailan, who apparently went to war with no heir and without naming a successor, died. What happened after was a battle for succession and not a coup.

 

 

maybe he could maybe he couldn't we'll never know

 

He was actually winning the civil war.

 

 

If he intended to leave Cailan to die from the start it is regicide

 

Except he didn't. We already went over this.

 

 

and it is if you're a suicidal idiot it's far smarter to use enemies to do it as to not risk implicating yourself by doing it yourself in a battle where potential survivors can see you.

 

No one claims that Loghain is particularly savvy. Second, he despises the idea of using an assassin. Third, you do have an option to say something along the lines of "I thought you were the kind of man who would kill someone with your own hands" to him. You're also glossing over him repeatedly trying to remove Cailan from the front lines, rendering your attempt at proving regicide moot.

[Aurelet]

I don't see how people really fault Loghain for Ostagar. Yes the battle tactics were his plan, but the Beacon was woefully late due to Darkspawn. I'm not sure why he didn't leave before the beacon was lit but maybe it was Game Mechanics.

 

That being said, all the things he did after Ostagar there's really no saying he had a good plan, or even a plan at all. 

 

As to his final verdict, it all depends on his fate at the Landsmeet.

 

Human noble-After getting the satisfaction of killing Howe, I always let Alistair duel Loghain. We all know how that ends

Elves- Kill Loghain for selling my people into Slavery (especially on the city elf). I have played a Dalish who thought City Elves were little more that slaves anyway and let him live.

Dwarves-Don't really care it's about 50/50

 

If he lives past the Landsmeet-he'd usually be remembered as a tarnished hero

If he doesn't - he's a traitor to Ferelden.

[TheLastArchivist]

Loghain is such a bad person that he doesn't die if you make him undergo the Joining.

 

And why is that? Have no one wondered?

 

Because this is a clear sign of the Maker's intentions. If he were guilty, he would have died. But he lives. Therefore, his crimes were justifiable, for they served the Maker's purpose.

 

Try to argue with that. Meh, you can't.

[Aurelet]

Loghain is such a bad person that he doesn't die if you make him undergo the Joining.

 

And why is that? Have no one wondered?

 

Because this is a clear sign of the Maker's intentions. If he were guilty, he would have died. But he lives. Therefore, his crimes were justifiable, for they served the Maker's purpose.

 

Try to argue with that. Meh, you can't.

 

LOL OK.  You and Leliana are quite the couple aren't you.

[TheLastArchivist]

LOL OK.  You and Leliana are quite the couple aren't you.

Have I ever told you I really like the way you wear your hair?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

@OP I think the final verdict on Loghain in-universe is indirectly chosen by the player. Depending on what actions you take, Loghain will be more or less reviled. If he dies against the Archdemon, he's even seen as completely redeemed according to the epilogue. (I'm rather curious what the Denerim elves think about that, but the sad fact is that their opinion is never asked in any matter.) On the other hand, if Loghain dies in the Landsmeet he is seen as the opposite of that.

 

And as you can plainly see, the players are unlikely to ever agree.

[ShadowLordXII]

Loghain is such a bad person that he doesn't die if you make him undergo the Joining.

 

And why is that? Have no one wondered?

 

Because this is a clear sign of the Maker's intentions. If he were guilty, he would have died. But he lives. Therefore, his crimes were justifiable, for they served the Maker's purpose.

 

Try to argue with that. Meh, you can't.

 

The Maker doesn't exist.

 

If he does, then he's a sadistic cruel being whose guilty of heavy neglect and disproportionate retribution.

 

The Joining isn't a sign of divine luck, it's only a test of if your fortitude is strong enough to drink darkspawn juice without choking on it.

[Shadow Fox]

 

Actually, that's not what a coup is. Cailan, who apparently went to war with no heir and without naming a successor, died. What happened after was a battle for succession and not a coup.

 

 

 

He was actually winning the civil war.

 

 

 

Except he didn't. We already went over this.

 

 

 

No one claims that Loghain is particularly savvy. Second, he despises the idea of using an assassin. Third, you do have an option to say something along the lines of "I thought you were the kind of man who would kill someone with your own hands" to him. You're also glossing over him repeatedly trying to remove Cailan from the front lines, rendering your attempt at proving regicide moot.

 

I'm not trying to prove he did simply saying intent matters.

[Monica21]

I'm not trying to prove he did simply saying intent matters.

And, as has already been said, he did not intend to leave Cailan to die. Being prepared for the possibility and intending it are two different things and Gaider has already said as much.

[Shadow Fox]

Loghain is such a bad person that he doesn't die if you make him undergo the Joining.

 

And why is that? Have no one wondered?

 

Because this is a clear sign of the Maker's intentions. If he were guilty, he would have died. But he lives. Therefore, his crimes were justifiable, for they served the Maker's purpose.

 

Try to argue with that. Meh, you can't.

By that logic Velanna isn't a racist mass murderer and Mhairi is clearly evil incarnate.

[Lavaeolus]

@above: Oghren is the chosen one!

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

By that logic Velanna isn't a racist mass murderer and Mhairi is clearly evil incarnate.

One of my favorite fanfic writers joked that the Taint doesn't know what to do with people who are too nice. She might very well have something there.

[Shadow Fox]

@above: Oghren is the chosen one!

Maker help us all

[sylvanaerie]

Loghain is such a bad person that he doesn't die if you make him undergo the Joining.

 

And why is that? Have no one wondered?

 

Because this is a clear sign of the Maker's intentions. If he were guilty, he would have died. But he lives. Therefore, his crimes were justifiable, for they served the Maker's purpose.

 

Try to argue with that. Meh, you can't.

I'm going to assume this was said tongue in cheek and not really serious.  It seems that way, anyway.

 

It seems whether you survive is in direct proportion to how much you want it.  Daveth chokes on the mixture (and of the other two recruits he had the most positive outlook on the wardens, Jory's eagerness all being for the wrong reasons--glory and honor).  Not much honor to be found among the wardens but the general populace has their legends, glossing over the bad and looking up to the wardens for doing a dirty--and often thankless--job.  Mhairi also wanted to join for 'noble' reasons, to fight darkspawn and protect people.  She had a very positive outlook on the whole thing, but that didn't protect her when the moment came.  I hope you aren't insisting that these two mostly liked characters were evil incarnate?

 

Loghain survives one reason only--"Plot Armor".  The game requires a newly joined male warden at the end to do Morrigan's ritual.  If the warden is a female, she obviously can't do it herself, so he is required to be there to do it.  That's it.  Frankly, I would have loved to have seen an option for him to die in the Joining, like a random factor.  Or that the Joining itself kills him outright every game after all the player has done to get him to join them.

 

Imagine the wailing and gnashing of teeth that would have caused.  "I lost Alistair to recruit this guy and he dies?!!!  WTF Bioware!"  There would be no join in Mudville, mighty Loghain has struck out...

 

*Edit* Actually that would be a pretty interesting fanfic.  Female warden recruits Loghain who dies.  Then when the time comes, Morrigan can't offer her ritual so she just disappears the night before battle...and the warden is left holding the bag at the end...

[DarthGizka]

I'm grateful that you didn't write "is left holding the baby..." because that would have been seriously weird. 

[Shadow Fox]

I'm going to assume this was said tongue in cheek and not really serious.  It seems that way, anyway.

 

It seems whether you survive is in direct proportion to how much you want it.  Daveth chokes on the mixture (and of the other two recruits he had the most positive outlook on the wardens, Jory's eagerness all being for the wrong reasons--glory and honor).  Not much honor to be found among the wardens but the general populace has their legends, glossing over the bad and looking up to the wardens for doing a dirty--and often thankless--job.  Mhairi also wanted to join for 'noble' reasons, to fight darkspawn and protect people.  She had a very positive outlook on the whole thing, but that didn't protect her when the moment came.  I hope you aren't insisting that these two mostly liked characters were evil incarnate?

 

Loghain survives one reason only--"Plot Armor".  The game requires a newly joined male warden at the end to do Morrigan's ritual.  If the warden is a female, she obviously can't do it herself, so he is required to be there to do it.  That's it.  Frankly, I would have loved to have seen an option for him to die in the Joining, like a random factor.  Or that the Joining itself kills him outright every game after all the player has done to get him to join them.

 

Imagine the wailing and gnashing of teeth that would have caused.  "I lost Alistair to recruit this guy and he dies?!!!  WTF Bioware!"  There would be no join in Mudville, mighty Loghain has struck out...

 

*Edit* Actually that would be a pretty interesting fanfic.  Female warden recruits Loghain who dies.  Then when the time comes, Morrigan can't offer her ritual so she just disappears the night before battle...and the warden is left holding the bag at the end...

And when Alistair hears about it he'd laugh his ass off...before passing out drunk.

[Shadow Fox]

I don't think there will ever be a final verdict on Loghain. So many people have so many feelings of him all up and down the scale, from absolute love, adoration, and "If everyone just did what he said the whole mess would have been averted" to "He's a completely irredeemable monster, I'm glad I killed him and I'd resurrect him a million times to kill him a million ways," and every emotion in between. I don't think there's any statement about him everyone will agree on.

Blood Mage Surana: Alistair she's unto us!

 

Blood Mage Amell: Quick hide the body!

 

*Alistair throws Loghain's corpse in a well*

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I don't think there will ever be a final verdict on Loghain. So many people have so many feelings of him all up and down the scale, from absolute love, adoration, and "If everyone just did what he said the whole mess would have been averted" to "He's a completely irredeemable monster, I'm glad I killed him and I'd resurrect him a million times to kill him a million ways," and every emotion in between. I don't think there's any statement about him everyone will agree on.

In the interests of accuracy, I don't think anyone believes the first quote. (Or at least, nobody who's played the endgame.)

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Yeah, they do. I've met and talked to them.

Did you try pointing out that despite the logical case for much of what he does, the way the Blight works means that nothing Loghain had access to can kill an Archdemon?

 

Edit: Actually, you probably did. Better question: did it work?

[Han Shot First]

History is written by the victors.

 

If Loghain's head ends up seperated from his shoulders at the Landsmeet and Alistair ends up as King-Consort, he probably won't be remembered too fondly in the histories. I'm guess he'll remembered in a similar light as Phillipe Petain or Benedict Arnold.

 

If Loghain is recruited into the Wardens and helps defeat the archdemon (particularly if he sacrifices himself) and Anora is left to rule Ferelden alone, I'm guessing the historians writing about the era would be a bit kinder to him. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

History is written by the victors.

 

If Loghain's head ends up seperated from his shoulders at the Landsmeet and Alistair ends up as King-Consort, he probably won't be remembered too fondly in the histories. I'm guess he'll remembered in a similar light as Phillipe Petain or Benedict Arnold.

 

If Loghain is recruited into the Wardens and helps defeat the archdemon (particularly if he sacrifices himself) and Anora is left to rule Ferelden alone, I'm guessing the historians writing about the era would be a bit kinder to him. 

The epilogue states that if he dies killing the Archdemon, the statue Anora builds of him is a pretty popular tourist spot. Compare this to the epilogue if you kill him at the Landsmeet, where it has one visitor who pays respects there on an annual basis. (Anora.)

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 To those saying Loghain should have been focused on the Blight, and not Orlais...

 

(1) HE WAS (focused on the Blight... and arguably more so than Cailan was).

 

The army was having success against the darkspawn, but their numbers were still growing each day. It was a valid concern that their luck would run out at Ostagar. And then there was also no sign of the Archdemon (Loghain himself notes the lack of any dragon sightings), which made it pointless to throw the army at them there. Cailan should have agreed to hold back his forces, but he insisted on the battle for no other reason than to feed his vanity, above the needs of his country. Loghain didn't stand for it.

 

And I don't blame him. I would not have, either (personally, I could tell Cailan was an idiot before he even opened his mouth).

 

(2) It's his job to worry about Orlais, and anything after the Blight.

 

Cost does not determine the ultimate success of the war. What happens after the war is over does. Why do people say that the US lost the Vietnam War? Because the country fell to communism shortly after we pulled out. Sure, we got our arse handed to us in the conflict quite a few times, but would it still be considered a loss if not for the spread of communism through the country after he left?

 

Or, look at Mass Effect 3, to use the example of another game. Nobody just drops everything and bands together to fight the Reapers when they invade the galaxy. All of them want to make sure they secure their future in some way before they commit to joining Shepard's fleet.

 

Bottom line: nobody fights a war to become a new regime's p!ss-pot.