Most of them knew the risks. And Loghain did try to keep the one guy who I'm not sure about off of the frontlines.
Again that still doesn't make it a not a betrayal.
Final Verdict on Loghain?
Débuté par
ShadowLordXII
, févr. 27 2014 10:34
#176
Posté 15 mars 2014 - 07:34
Aurelet
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Retour en haut
#177
Posté 15 mars 2014 - 07:36
Monica21
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That fact that the retreat MAY have been the right tactical call doesn't make it any less of a betrayal to the people who he placed on the battlefield to draw the Darkspawn in.
And this still means that you consider every retreat in the history of warfare ever to be a betrayal. You don't get to exclude Loghain just because you don't like him, whether he's fictional or not.
Varric,Aveline and non-Mage Hawke definitely thought it was a betrayal.
Were those three in the war council? Because I don't remember them.
#178
Posté 15 mars 2014 - 07:38
Monica21
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Again that still doesn't make it a not a betrayal.
Explain to me your knowledge of military tactics. And then please explain why it's necessary to throw troops at an army that unexpectedly outnumbers yours for the sake of.. what? Pride? Because it's "the right thing"? Because you won't need those troops you just spared later on?
#179
Posté 15 mars 2014 - 07:42
TEWR
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Varric,Aveline and non-Mage Hawke definitely thought it was a betrayal.
Aveline and Hawke are of course going to view it as a betrayal, but they were not in the position to have any objective authority on the matter.
Varric's take on it is of course going to be colored by their take on it.
And of course, since Loghain lost history is written by the victors. It doesn't matter that he was right, people are going to say he was wrong anyway and that's all the books would keep.
That fact that the retreat MAY have been the right tactical call doesn't make it any less of a betrayal to the people who he placed on the battlefield to draw the Darkspawn in.
Luring the Darkspawn to them is a different thing then what Cailan did, which was charge right into the open and expose his left and right flanks (along with the other things Cailan did that botched the plan). The Darkspawn were already charging and he decided to meet them in the open.
And those soldiers knew the risks.
#180
Posté 15 mars 2014 - 07:42
Aurelet
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And this still means that you consider every retreat in the history of warfare ever to be a betrayal. You don't get to exclude Loghain just because you don't like him, whether he's fictional or not.
1. I never said I didn't like him
2. The ones I consider a betrayal are the ones where you are told to go do something and they'll back you up, then they don't show up.
#181
Posté 15 mars 2014 - 07:44
Monica21
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2. The ones I consider a betrayal are the ones where you are told to go do something and they'll back you up, then they don't show up.
Well, guess what. Battles don't always go the way commanders hope they do.
#182
Posté 15 mars 2014 - 07:44
Aurelet
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Explain to me your knowledge of military tactics. And then please explain why it's necessary to throw troops at an army that unexpectedly outnumbers yours for the sake of.. what? Pride? Because it's "the right thing"? Because you won't need those troops you just spared later on?
During my 12 years in the Marine Corps I learned a bit about tactics.
I never said that his retreat was the wrong move tactically. I said it was a betrayal of the people he sent out there.
#183
Posté 15 mars 2014 - 07:46
Aurelet
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Well, guess what. Battles don't always go the way commanders hope they do.
You aren't understanding me. It DOESN'T MATTER IF HIS DECISION WAS THE CORRECT TACTICAL MANEUVER. IT DOESN'T MATTER THAT I'D AGREE WITH HIS DECISION. To the army he left on the battlefield it was a betrayal pure and simple.
- Shadow Fox aime ceci
#184
Posté 15 mars 2014 - 07:51
Monica21
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Then how in the hell is it betrayal?
#185
Posté 15 mars 2014 - 07:53
Shadow Fox
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You aren't understanding me. It DOESN'T MATTER IF HIS DECISION WAS THE CORRECT TACTICAL MANEUVER. IT DOESN'T MATTER THAT I'D AGREE WITH HIS DECISION. To the army he left on the battlefield it was a betrayal pure and simple.
Hence the reason why most generals don't make such a decision lightly.
#186
Posté 15 mars 2014 - 07:55
Monica21
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He didn't make the decision lightly. His conversation with Wynne in RtO tells you that much.
#187
Posté 15 mars 2014 - 07:55
Shadow Fox
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Then how in the hell is it betrayal?
Because you are leaving men who trust you to die?
#188
Posté 15 mars 2014 - 07:59
Monica21
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Because you are leaving men who trust you to die?
Well, I didn't ask you. I asked the guy who was in the Marines. And the reason I asked is because anyone who joins up has to know that their life is on the line the moment they are called to active duty, and moreso the moment they set foot in war zone. Cailan was the one who called the troops to Ostagar in the first place and had Loghain draw up the plan. Why not blame Cailan for putting them in harm's way in the first place?
#190
Posté 15 mars 2014 - 08:17
Shadow Fox
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Well, I didn't ask you. I asked the guy who was in the Marines. And the reason I asked is because anyone who joins up has to know that their life is on the line the moment they are called to active duty, and moreso the moment they set foot in war zone. Cailan was the one who called the troops to Ostagar in the first place and had Loghain draw up the plan. Why not blame Cailan for putting them in harm's way in the first place?
Because Cailan didn't abandon them to die?
#191
Posté 15 mars 2014 - 08:18
TEWR
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You aren't understanding me. It DOESN'T MATTER IF HIS DECISION WAS THE CORRECT TACTICAL MANEUVER. IT DOESN'T MATTER THAT I'D AGREE WITH HIS DECISION. To the army he left on the battlefield it was a betrayal pure and simple.
Are you saying that the people in that position in the valley alongside Cailan would view it as a betrayal because they don't have the information to go off of that Loghain does?
Meaning you're not saying it IS a betrayal, only that those people would view it as such?
- Aurelet et Shadow Fox aiment ceci
#192
Posté 15 mars 2014 - 08:29
Monica21
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Because Cailan didn't abandon them to die?
No, he just turned into a people-sized ketchup packet.
- TEWR aime ceci
#193
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 16 mars 2014 - 12:18
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
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I think ultimately Loghain is written quite well and voice acted brilliantly for there to be ten pages of discussion about him. Lots of credit to the writers for that. He is a polarizing character and the situational setup at the beginning with Cailin can give you a different perspective of him - letting the idiot king die when it seems the daughter was the real brains (according to dialogue in game).
Loghain's move if it were under other circumstances, like not leaving the King on the field, would have been something I could respect if he had a plan beyond worrying about Orlais. Like perhaps if his plan entailed dealing with the darkspawn. But alas, it doesn't. In fact, if you as the warden had not survived and done all you did, Ferelden would have been screwed. So this shows he is not a great general, at least not anymore. Without you, Ferelden is gone because he's too worried about Orlais that he would rather let the darkspawn take ferelden than risk that Orlais might try.
- Shadow Fox aime ceci
#194
Posté 16 mars 2014 - 12:40
Riverdaleswhiteflash
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I think ultimately Loghain is written quite well and voice acted brilliantly for there to be ten pages of discussion about him. Lots of credit to the writers for that. He is a polarizing character and the situational setup at the beginning with Cailin can give you a different perspective of him - letting the idiot king die when it seems the daughter was the real brains (according to dialogue in game).
Loghain's move if it were under other circumstances, like not leaving the King on the field, would have been something I could respect if he had a plan beyond worrying about Orlais. Like perhaps if his plan entailed dealing with the darkspawn. But alas, it doesn't. In fact, if you as the warden had not survived and done all you did, Ferelden would have been screwed. So this shows he is not a great general, at least not anymore. Without you, Ferelden is gone because he's too worried about Orlais that he would rather let the darkspawn take ferelden than risk that Orlais might try.
Two things I've previously pointed out:
Loghain was working to take the king off the field.
And, Loghain was hoping to attack the darkspawn. Only the Civil War happened first.
#195
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 16 mars 2014 - 01:07
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
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Well, I didn't ask you. I asked the guy who was in the Marines. And the reason I asked is because anyone who joins up has to know that their life is on the line the moment they are called to active duty, and moreso the moment they set foot in war zone. Cailan was the one who called the troops to Ostagar in the first place and had Loghain draw up the plan. Why not blame Cailan for putting them in harm's way in the first place?
Because frankly, the blight is an issue the king should damn well be concerned about and given that the wardens were sent camping before being allowed to return, their numbers are not nearly as great. So if you are king you damn well best get your butt to ostagar and work with the wardens lest you lose everything to a blight because you chose to ignore it. Cailan was a bit star struck about the wardens and wanting a legendary battle. Sure. He's witless and naive on that point. But he did fully comprehend that the blight was something to be stopped and he didn't readily dismiss the wardens concerns. So blaming him is pretty absurd on that point. He called for more aid. He expected his army and generaly to do as they were told. Loghain pulled his troop because of Orlais. He didn't care about the blight. He was an idiot in that respect. Cailan was smart enough to heed the warning. So blaming him, especially considering the fact that it was a blight is absurd at best. At worse, makes the argument look idiotic.
#196
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 16 mars 2014 - 01:09
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Two things I've previously pointed out:
Loghain was working to take the king off the field.
And, Loghain was hoping to attack the darkspawn. Only the Civil War happened first.
The civil war happened as a direct result of his actions.
#197
Posté 16 mars 2014 - 01:29
Riverdaleswhiteflash
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The civil war happened as a direct result of his actions.
The Civil War happened because the King died (which Loghain tried to prevent), and because Loghain was kind of a poor politician. And because Teagan and the other banns decided to step out of line at precisely the wrong time.
#198
Posté 16 mars 2014 - 01:31
Xilizhra
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The Civil War happened because the King died (which Loghain tried to prevent), and because Loghain was kind of a poor politician. And because Teagan and the other banns decided to step out of line at precisely the wrong time.
What with all the suspicious circumstances arising at the same time--Cailan's death, Bryce Cousland's death, Eamon's illness--what was Teagan supposed to think?
#199
Posté 16 mars 2014 - 01:38
TEWR
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What with all the suspicious circumstances arising at the same time--Cailan's death, Bryce Cousland's death, Eamon's illness--what was Teagan supposed to think?
That politics shouldn't trump going up against a Legion of Hell invading your doorstep?
I understand why he'd certainly be suspicious, but there's a time and place to air your grievances. When there are Darkspawn progressing north, taking issue with the guy who's trying to raise an army to deal with them isn't in the nation's best interest.
Politics should wait until the nation is secure.
- Monica21 aime ceci
#200
Posté 16 mars 2014 - 01:49
Xilizhra
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That politics shouldn't trump going up against a Legion of Hell invading your doorstep?
I understand why he'd certainly be suspicious, but there's a time and place to air your grievances. When there are Darkspawn progressing north, taking issue with the guy who's trying to raise an army to deal with them isn't in the nation's best interest.
Politics should wait until the nation is secure.
The guy who possibly also had all of the Grey Wardens killed off? Whatever he's up to, it may well not be in the best interests of the nation either.
