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[Shadow Fox]

That politics shouldn't trump going up against a Legion of Hell invading your doorstep?

 

I understand why he'd certainly be suspicious, but there's a time and place to air your grievances. When there are Darkspawn progressing north, taking issue with the guy who's trying to raise an army to deal with them isn't in the nation's best interest.

 

Politics should wait until the nation is secure.

Yet it's ok for Loghain to refuse aid from Orlais and the Grey Wardens because he hates them?

[Mike3207]

He poisoned the Arl! How do people forget that? He poisoned one of the most well like Arl's and this took place at the same time he leaves ostagar or perhaps shortly after. Probably the same time because the knights were looking for the ashes and had been for a bit based on conversation in lothering which also seems as though the Arl had been sick for longer than the start of the game which is when you meet Loghain after your character's opening. If this is the case, then the Arl was poisoned before ostagar and changes things drastically. Now Loghain has tried to kill an Arl before leaving the battle. That shifts things to look a lot more like Loghain wanted to seize the throne. If so, then his actions on the battlefield were done more out of treachery than tactical maneuvering.

I'd have liked it if there was a option to let Eamon die. He's not well liked by me.

[Shadow Fox]

I'm not fond of his maneuvering either since he threw away alistair for his crazy wife whose butt I have to save - lying, scheming thing that she is along with jealous as well. And then he wants the boy he threw away for a woman to now be king to preserve the bloodlines... I'm no fan of the turn the story takes the minute you save him as now we're in the middle of this whole royal nonsense with Alistair maybe becoming a king or maybe tossed out for loghain. Ugh.

Well a Cousland Warden can troll him by making herself Queen.

[TEWR]

Yet it's ok for Loghain to refuse aid from Orlais and the Grey Wardens because he hates them?

 

He hates Orlais, not the Grey Wardens. He just doesn't trust the latter.

 

One, I don't trust Orlais so I can't blame him. When they give off one number of troops en route to Ferelden and it turns out the number is larger then what they gave, then I won't trust them. When Celene has designs on taking Ferelden back (admittedly through peaceful methods, though it wouldn't last) I wouldn't trust them. When the Grey Wardens historically did help Orlais spread its influence, I wouldn't trust them.

 

And it's not like he was denying the aid of all other nations. Kirkwall was petitioned for aid (and only one nobleman decided to answer the call) and Loghain was working on gaining the Dwarves' aid in fighting the Blight -- though he picked the worst person to serve as an ambassador, but this goes back to him being a horrible politician who favors bluntness over tact and diplomacy. Imrek's the same way. He's blunt (though worse so) -- and he was working on trying to get the Mages' help (again, he picked the worst person to serve as his ambassador, though that once can be excused because he didn't actually know Uldred).

 

So Loghain's not acting the same way. Loghain's all for getting help from other people. He just doesn't want Orlais to help.

 

It's a bit different.

 

Yeah, he's denying the aid of Orlais, and yeah it's fueled by politics, but he's still trying to keep the nation safe at the same time by looking to other places to make up the difference. Which is more then I can say for Teagan and the rest.

[TEWR]

The guy who possibly also had all of the Grey Wardens killed off? Whatever he's up to, it may well not be in the best interests of the nation either.

 

He didn't have them killed off. Duncan's incompetence did. Duncan decided to place all of his men, except for the rookies, on the front lines knowing full well the plan could go awry.

 

The blame for the deaths of all the senior Wardens goes to Duncan, not Loghain.

 

Duncan's also the guy who didn't tell Alistair why the Wardens were needed despite him having been a loyal Warden (who idolized Duncan) for six months. And Alistair admits that the Wardens will do whatever's necessary to end a Blight, like sacrificing a village to save a city.

[KaiserShep]

That politics shouldn't trump going up against a Legion of Hell invading your doorstep?

 

I understand why he'd certainly be suspicious, but there's a time and place to air your grievances. When there are Darkspawn progressing north, taking issue with the guy who's trying to raise an army to deal with them isn't in the nation's best interest.

 

Politics should wait until the nation is secure.

 

It's sort of ironic that Loghain's approach at politics nearly destroyed Ferelden entirely. While it certainly doesn't help that the Wardens keep their details on the taint close to the chest, I don't suppose Duncan or anyone else really anticipated Loghain retreating from the battlefield AND putting a bounty on any surviving Wardens, as well as capturing any foreign Wardens that may be investigating the Blight.

[Shadow Fox]

He didn't have them killed off. Duncan's incompetence did. Duncan decided to place all of his men, except for the rookies, on the front lines knowing full well the plan could go awry.

 

The blame for the deaths of all the senior Wardens goes to Duncan, not Loghain.

 

Duncan's also the guy who didn't tell Alistair why the Wardens were needed despite him having been a loyal Warden (who idolized Duncan) for six months. And Alistair admits that the Wardens will do whatever's necessary to end a Blight, like sacrificing a village to save a city.

So basically it's Duncan's fault he trusted his king's general.

[Xilizhra]

He didn't have them killed off. Duncan's incompetence did. Duncan decided to place all of his men, except for the rookies, on the front lines knowing full well the plan could go awry.

 

The blame for the deaths of all the senior Wardens goes to Duncan, not Loghain.

 

Duncan's also the guy who didn't tell Alistair why the Wardens were needed despite him having been a loyal Warden (who idolized Duncan) for six months. And Alistair admits that the Wardens will do whatever's necessary to end a Blight, like sacrificing a village to save a city.

Which is all well and good for those people watching the battle, a group that did not include Teagan or anyone else at the Landsmeet.

[Monica21]

 Because frankly, the blight is an issue the king should damn well be concerned about and given that the wardens were sent camping before being allowed to return, their numbers are not nearly as great. So if you are king you damn well best get your butt to ostagar and work with the wardens lest you lose everything to a blight because you chose to ignore it. Cailan was a bit star struck about the wardens and wanting a legendary battle. Sure. He's witless and naive on that point. But he did fully comprehend that the blight was something to be stopped and he didn't readily dismiss the wardens concerns. So blaming him is pretty absurd on that point. He called for more aid. He expected his army and generaly to do as they were told. Loghain pulled his troop because of Orlais. He didn't care about the blight. He was an idiot in that respect. Cailan was smart enough to heed the warning. So blaming him, especially considering the fact that it was a blight is absurd at best. At worse, makes the argument look idiotic.

Cailan didn't believe it was a blight. Cailan says, "I'm not even sure this is a true Blight" when you meet him. Cailan wanted it to be a Blight. As for me "blaming" Cailan, what I did was take it all the way up the chain of command. Remember Cailan saying "and you will remember who is king"? Loghain isn't the reason troops are at Ostagar. Cailan is.

 

The king's death may or may not have been due to Loghain leaving the battle. It is impossible to know this. Teagan isn't stepping out of line.

The reason Teagan is stepping out of line is precisely because it's impossible to know. Teagan wasn't even at Ostagar so he couldn't have any idea how "fortuitous" Loghain's withdrawal was.

 

Yet it's ok for Loghain to refuse aid from Orlais and the Grey Wardens because he hates them?

Have you already forgotten that Cailan refused aid from his own uncle simply because he thought Eamon wanted to share in the glory?

[Shadow Fox]

He hates Orlais, not the Grey Wardens. He just doesn't trust the latter.

 

One, I don't trust Orlais so I can't blame him. When they give off one number of troops en route to Ferelden and it turns out the number is larger then what they gave, then I won't trust them. When Celene has designs on taking Ferelden back (admittedly through peaceful methods, though it wouldn't last) I wouldn't trust them. When the Grey Wardens historically did help Orlais spread its influence, I wouldn't trust them.

 

And it's not like he was denying the aid of all other nations. Kirkwall was petitioned for aid (and only one nobleman decided to answer the call) and Loghain was working on gaining the Dwarves' aid in fighting the Blight -- though he picked the worst person to serve as an ambassador, but this goes back to him being a horrible politician who favors bluntness over tact and diplomacy. Imrek's the same way. He's blunt (though worse so) -- and he was working on trying to get the Mages' help (again, he picked the worst person to serve as his ambassador, though that once can be excused because he didn't actually know Uldred).

 

So Loghain's not acting the same way. Loghain's all for getting help from other people. He just doesn't want Orlais to help.

 

It's a bit different.

 

Yeah, he's denying the aid of Orlais, and yeah it's fueled by politics, but he's still trying to keep the nation safe at the same time by looking to other places to make up the difference. Which is more then I can say for Teagan and the rest.

He's still refusing aid from the most powerful country on Thedas and the only group to successfully end Blights because he can't let go of an old grudge.

 

 

 

And Teagan was trying to protect his country from an usurper,kingslayer and tyrant.

[Shadow Fox]

Cailan didn't believe it was a blight. Cailan says, "I'm not even sure this is a true Blight" when you meet him. Cailan wanted it to be a Blight. As for me "blaming" Cailan, what I did was take it all the way up the chain of command. Remember Cailan saying "and you will remember who is king"? Loghain isn't the reason troops are at Ostagar. Cailan is.

 

The reason Teagan is stepping out of line is precisely because it's impossible to know. Teagan wasn't even at Ostagar so he couldn't have any idea how "fortuitous" Loghain's withdrawal was.

 

Have you already forgotten that Cailan refused aid from his own uncle simply because he thought Eamon wanted to share in the glory?

No he refused to wait for Eamon's men to arrive big difference.

[Monica21]

He's still refusing aid from the most powerful country on Thedas and the only group to successfully end Blights because he can't let go of an old grudge.

The "old grudge" was Ferelden being under the heel of Orlais for 80 years, and only ended 30 years prior. Orlesians are responsible for the deaths of both his parents and many of his friends. This grudge you talk about as if it's nothing is still fresh enough to be remembered by the living.

[KaiserShep]

I will say, I got a pretty poor impression of Cailan upon first meeting him. I had to choose the remark calling him a fool to Duncan, because he was. I'd probably like his character well enough, but he didn't seem the type suited to lead an army into war.

[TEWR]

It's sort of ironic that Loghain's approach at politics nearly destroyed Ferelden entirely.

I will admit, by trying to prevent what he feared would happen he ultimately contributed to it happening.

 

I'm not denying that he's a horrendous politician though, but what he was saying wasn't outlandish.

 

And I expect each of you to supply these men.

 

He wants the Banns to give Loghain their men so he can rebuild the army.

 

We must rebuild what was lost at Ostagar and quickly.

 

Pretty clear in the intent. There's no time to waste to rebuild Denerim's army.

 

There are those who would take advantage of our weakened state if we let them.

 

He's talking about Orlais here, who have historically taken advantage of crises in other nations to swoop in and "save" them, only to never leave. The king's death left a power vacuum, since he was heirless. Loghain wanted to fill this to try and keep the nation from fighting a civil war that Orlais would take advantage of.

 

Didn't work because the Banns had other priorities.

 

We must defeat this darkspawn incursion, but we must do so sensibly.

 

Here he admits the Darkspawn threat takes precedence.

 

But the banns decide that politics take priority over everything else.

 

So basically it's Duncan's fault he trusted his king's general.

 

The Wardens are a separate group, who can come up with their own tactics to contribute.

 

Duncan should've advised one or two of his senior officers to stay with Loghain in case a retreat needed to be sounded. Or have them placed elsewhere where they can still retreat.

 

Banking on success without considering the possibility of **** hitting the fan and working to address it is beyond reckless. It's the mark of a poor commander.

 

Trusting in Loghain's fine, but Duncan put all of his forces save for the rookies in the valley where casualties might run highest which is just silly.

 

Basically, Duncan admits that the plan could go awry, yet didn't do anything to help his Wardens actually prepare for such an eventuality.

 

I have a feeling I'm phrasing this poorly though so maybe Monica can help me phrase it better to convey my point.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The king's death may or may not have been due to Loghain leaving the battle. It is impossible to know this. Teagan isn't stepping out of line. A general who presumes to control the throne is the one stepping out of line. A general who lies about the wardens is stepping out of line. If you cannot see that point, then there is no discussion to be had as it is simple. 

 

Loghain was approved by the de facto ruler, so he's more legally in the right than Teagan is. And Loghain wasn't lying, he was saying what he believed to be true: The Wardens were supposed to light the beacon, and did it at what Alistair is certain is the wrong time. What conclusion was Loghain supposed to come to? (This game doesn't really do simple, unless it concerns Howe's decision making process.)

 

 

Loghain left the battle then attempted to take the thrown. Others don't approve because it is wrong for loghain to do that. hell, he wasn't even going to let his daughter the queen rule. He was taking over himself. That is stepping out of line. The banns were right in their actions because loghain was assuming control when he had no right to do so.

 

To which the only person with any actual right to complain was acquiescing. If Anora doesn't tell Loghain off for this, Teagan can't.

 

 

 He was also doing some horrible things on the side and involved with some sketchy things. He poisoned the Arl! How do people forget that? He poisoned one of the most well like Arl's and this took place at the same time he leaves ostagar or perhaps shortly after. 

 

Which Teagan doesn't know at the time. (Though you'll note that I'm not actually defending Loghain's actions here.)

 

 

 

Probably the same time because the knights were looking for the ashes and had been for a bit based on conversation in lothering which also seems as though the Arl had been sick for longer than the start of the game which is when you meet Loghain after your character's opening. If this is the case, then the Arl was poisoned before ostagar and changes things drastically. Now Loghain has tried to kill an Arl before leaving the battle. That shifts things to look a lot more like Loghain wanted to seize the thrown. If so, then his actions on the battlefield were done more out of treachery than tactical maneuvering.

 

Again, Teagan doesn't know any of this at the time. Also, we have Word Of Gaider that Loghain A: Wasn't doing this in preparation for Ostagar (he wanted Eamon to miss the next Landsmeet) and B: Was using the non-lethal stuff. (Though he was well aware of and pretty apathetic about the possibility that something could go wrong.)

[Monica21]

I have a feeling I'm phrasing this poorly though so maybe Monica can help me phrase it better to convey my point.

Well, I do understand what you're saying, but I think we've been repeating the same points for six pages now only to have them glossed over.

 

Regarding Duncan, he did mention the possibility of the Archdemon appearing and either Cailan or Loghain says something like "that's what your men are here for." I had the impression that, historically, Wardens had been coming up with their own plans. Why all of them were on the front lines is beyond me. Alistair says that they've been given a position of honor in the vanguard, but I think that's just the "die first" position.

[Shadow Fox]

The "old grudge" was Ferelden being under the heel of Orlais for 80 years, and only ended 30 years prior. Orlesians are responsible for the deaths of both his parents and many of his friends. This grudge you talk about as if it's nothing is still fresh enough to be remembered by the living.

And you talk of Loghain's atrocities as if they are nothing and act like Ferelden should ignore them and just do as he says yet Loghain nearly dooming his country because he hates Orlais is perfectly fine and acceptable.

[Monica21]

And you talk of Loghain's atrocities as if they are nothing and act like Ferelden should ignore them and just do as he says yet Loghain nearly dooming his country because he hates Orlais is perfectly fine and acceptable.

You have managed to misread nearly everything I've said. And also if you could avoid using run on sentences quite this often that would be great.

 

I've said Loghain's actions are morally gray. Which, to me, boils down to nothing more than, it's war so all's fair. And the lack of understanding you continue to display about the reason Loghain hates Orlais is astounding. Your refusal to acknowledge the history between the two countries is equally astounding. You continue to refuse to acknowledge that Loghain doesn't know what you know. "Loghain nearly doomed his country because he hates Orlais," is probably the most puerile rejection of Loghain's actions.

 

You are no longer just simply disagreeing with me about Loghain's actions. You are willfully rejecting the facts as they are presented in-game and frankly, I've repeated myself enough times.

[Shadow Fox]

You have managed to misread nearly everything I've said. And also if you could avoid using run on sentences quite this often that would be great.

 

I've said Loghain's actions are morally gray. Which, to me, boils down to nothing more than, it's war so all's fair. And the lack of understanding you continue to display about the reason Loghain hates Orlais is astounding. Your refusal to acknowledge the history between the two countries is equally astounding. You continue to refuse to acknowledge that Loghain doesn't know what you know. "Loghain nearly doomed his country because he hates Orlais," is probably the most puerile rejection of Loghain's actions.

 

You are no longer just simply disagreeing with me about Loghain's actions. You are willfully rejecting the facts as they are presented in-game and frankly, I've repeated myself enough times.

No I'm saying you can not condemn Fereldens for putting their personal feelings above the country then condone Loghain doing the same because you find his reasons more agreeable. But I appreciate the irony of someone saying a man who betrayed his army and son in-law,framed the people he left to die of killing said son in-law,sold people into slavery,condoned torture of his people and poisoned an innocent man should have them overlooked,forgotten or forgiven because he's a war hero basically telling me I lack empathy.

 

And correct me if I'm wrong but I believe there's a codex for the First Blight in game you know the one that flat out shows only Wardens can end Blights.

[Xilizhra]

You have managed to misread nearly everything I've said. And also if you could avoid using run on sentences quite this often that would be great.

 

I've said Loghain's actions are morally gray. Which, to me, boils down to nothing more than, it's war so all's fair. And the lack of understanding you continue to display about the reason Loghain hates Orlais is astounding. Your refusal to acknowledge the history between the two countries is equally astounding. You continue to refuse to acknowledge that Loghain doesn't know what you know. "Loghain nearly doomed his country because he hates Orlais," is probably the most puerile rejection of Loghain's actions.

 

You are no longer just simply disagreeing with me about Loghain's actions. You are willfully rejecting the facts as they are presented in-game and frankly, I've repeated myself enough times.

Forgive me, but I don't think Loghain's stint as slaver was really that gray.

[TheLastArchivist]

Almost no one talks about Wynne or Oghren, but everybody discusses Loghain or Anders (let's blow up the Chantry!).

Problematic and controversial characters are always the favourite subject of discussions.