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So, it's safe to say that every Bard has sociopathic tendensies?
I don't think Leliana really believed she was on par with Andraste rather than trying to convince herself that she had changed.
Anyone involved in politics at some level has to have some sociopathic tendencies, or at least the ability to dehumanize and de-empathize with people at will to use their for your own advancement and gain.
Anyone involved in politics at some level has to have some sociopathic tendencies, or at least the ability to dehumanize and de-empathize with people at will to use their for your own advancement and gain.
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So much misunderstanding here...
Yeah, I'm sitting this one out. Anyone else feel like trying to tackle this?
By neutral do you mean someone that is indifferent to what is going on? Or someone that is pragmatic?
To be honest either or would be welcome, but if I had to say, I would say it would probably be a more pragmatic individual.
Though, if I had to, I would say there is a third option of someone with their own bias for peace and order, who doesn't approve of altering the previous status quo one way or the other. To me that would be a neutral character, someone looking to preserve the middle ground. Though that itself can be a biased and extreme viewpoint given the right circumstances.
So honestly, I do not know.
You definitely would have to develop some sort of detachment from emotions such as empathy and guilt, considering what you may have to do.
She was claiming the Maker gave her a vision when the only person the Maker has ever talked to is Andraste if what I think they mean.
Yeah, but do you really believe that she believed that, was what I meant.
I don't see how Leliana throwing a fit over you defiling Andraste's Ashes means she is extreme. I'd be just as mad too, and I'm not even a huge Chantry supporter.
The point i'm making is that she is as extreme in her devotion to andraste as Anders or Fenris is their pro/anti-mage views. The character arcs are just more to the fore in DA2 because it is much more of a self contained intimate story.
.....
So much misunderstanding here...
Yeah, I'm sitting this one out. Anyone else feel like trying to tackle this?
That's what orlisian bards do don't they? Basically mercenaries hired by the political elite of orlais to help them in gaining political ground over their opponents through espionage, sabotage, and manufacturing scandals. At least that was the impression I got from leiliana's dlc.
Let's not assume 'extreme' automatically entails being insane and stupid now. In Dragon Age or in real life.
After all, the character of the hero is good taken to an 'extreme.' Compassion, honor, and integrity in the 'extreme.'
That's a pretty limited view of a hero, David. Mainly because that's only one type (out of many), and extreme typically does entail being stupid/insane. In fact, it goes along with the type for extremism. And all those equal a rather rigid and tyrannical self-righteous figure, especially if neither anyone else lives up to his own standards, and on the subjective nature of 'good'. I can tell you plenty of philosophies that view compassion, honor, and integrity as weaknesses, especially among warriors.
*shrugs shoulders* maybe? When you contract all sides of the extreme, where else is there to go but the middle?
Sometimes there is no middle ground and the only neutral solution is to do nothing, which would make that character the proverbial doormat you are so opposed to.
The point i'm making is that she is as extreme in her devotion to andraste as Anders or Fenris is their pro/anti-mage views. The character arcs are just more to the fore in DA2 because it is much more of a self contained intimate story.
Ah, I thought you meant she is extreme solely because she throws a fit about the Ashes.
I really shouldn't be posting before I've had my caffeine.
That's what orlisian bards do don't they? Basically mercenaries hired by the political elite of orlais to help them in gaining political ground over their opponents through espionage, sabotage, and manufacturing scandals. At least that was the impression I got from leiliana's dlc.
If I have to explain why not all spies/bards (or even those in politics) are sociopaths, then I think you don't know what a sociopath is.
Leliana may be a mixed up gal and perhaps even a bit troubled. There is even a case that can be made for her having schizophrenia. Most schizophrenics are not violent (contrary to what movies and TV claim,) and most of the time, the voices in their head aren't dangerous. She may be deluded, albeit for a very good cause.
I don't think she's either a sociopath nor a schizo, but that is of course a matter of opinion. 
She's a very caring, compassionate and an optimistic woman. She doesn't strike me as faking it either; I think she truly feels all those emotions. Sociopaths don't have those emotions at all. I'm not asking you to like the character, but at least get your terms straight.
Yeah, but do you really believe that she believed that, was what I meant.
"I believe that she believes" is a great way to put it. I personally never had an issue with the Maker talking to her, but that may be because of religious beliefs of my own shading my perception while playing.
Sometimes there is no middle ground and the only neutral solution is to do nothing, which would make that character the proverbial doormat you are so opposed to.
This is my own personal bias showing, but I don't believe that is actually true. Maybe if you were trying to win popular support, and had to gain the approval of others in order to get your "middle ground", then yeah there might not be a middle ground popular enough for people to support.
But in terms of a persons own opinion? Their viewpoint on morals, believes, norms, and principles? I don't think anyone actually feels like a solution is nothing when they talk of the middle ground, there is just the thought of whether it's feasible or not.
I'm asking for a character to express a view in favor of finding a middle ground and being aggressive/not afraid to be abrasive, about it. That doesn't need to translate into actualization or action, as most characters expressed viewpoints never do, but it would be good to have it at least said aloud.
What the middle ground is though is a tougher discussion, as well as what some might consider a middle ground, or even if there is a true middle ground and not simply ground affected by the shades of the other extremes. It's a much harder question then I gave it credit for when I first wrote this.
Unfortunately, it's not too far from real life politics in that regard. It seems like the extremists from both sides get most of the attention in a debate, while the moderates have to fight for the right to be heard. However, people who are very passionate about their beliefs are usually more vocal. It could be that characters like Varric, Isabella and Aveline were tired of hearing about the mage vs. templar debate and just didn't want to talk about it.
If I have to explain why not all spies/bards (or even those in politics) are sociopaths, then I think you don't know what a sociopath is.
Leliana may be a mixed up and perhaps even a bit troubled. There is even a case that can be made for her having schizophrenia. Most schizophrenics are not violent (contrary to what movies and TV claim,) and most of the time, the voices in their head aren't dangerous. She may be deluded, albeit for a very good cause.
I don't think she's either a sociopath nor a schizo, but that is of course a matter of opinion.
She's a very caring, compassionate and an optimistic woman. She doesn't strike me as faking it either; I think she truly feels all those emotions. Sociopaths don't have those emotions at all. I'm not asking you to like the character, but at least get your terms straight.
Of course she's not fully a sociopath, but all I'm saying is that she has a little bit of sociopathy/moral apathy in her, as all politicians have. Having sociopathic tendencies doesn't make you a sociopath, it just means you can cold and ruthless at times and at other times not. Sort of like going into a state of mind where your personality changes from what it normally is, which is actually a lot more normal then people think and something they do all the time.
Sorry if what I originally wrote brought up some confusion on that part. I'm just saying, you kinda need an "humanity off switch" when it comes to doing the dirty work of politics and everyone I've learned about in my 4 years of college education on the subject suggests a lot of the greats in politics had this sort of skill.
"I believe that she believes" is a great way to put it. I personally never had an issue with the Maker talking to her, but that may be because of religious beliefs of my own shading my perception while playing.
I'm agnostic, but I always thought that was a fine way to approach Leliana's connection with the Maker. That's how I always saw it. I might not agree with it being "the Maker" but it's hard to deny Lelianan's actions as well as her intents.
@Jen. Fair enough. I just get irked when I see the term sociopath being thrown around so willy-nilly. Now, I will happily agree that there can be for many a fine line between suitably pragmatic and completely cold in that environment. However, in a lot of ways, that makes Leliana no different than the Warden, or hell, anyone that stays alive in the world of politics. I think she came out with her soul and heart intact.
"I believe that she believes" is a great way to put it. I personally never had an issue with the Maker talking to her, but that may be because of religious beliefs of my own shading my perception while playing.
I'm on the fence with that, but either way, I don't have an issue for the same reasons as you.
If I have to explain why not all spies/bards (or even those in politics) are sociopaths, then I think you don't know what a sociopath is.
Leliana may be a mixed up gal and perhaps even a bit troubled. There is even a case that can be made for her having schizophrenia. Most schizophrenics are not violent (contrary to what movies and TV claim,) and most of the time, the voices in their head aren't dangerous. She may be deluded, albeit for a very good cause.
I don't think she's either a sociopath nor a schizo, but that is of course a matter of opinion.
She's a very caring, compassionate and an optimistic woman. She doesn't strike me as faking it either; I think she truly feels all those emotions. Sociopaths don't have those emotions at all. I'm not asking you to like the character, but at least get your terms straight.
Yesssssssss, this is exactly why I was perplexed at the whole 'sociopath' thought. She's so gentle and kind, I mean look at how she is with that little nug?
So, it's safe to say that every Bard has sociopathic tendensies?
I don't think Leliana really believed she was on par with Andraste rather than trying to convince herself that she had changed.
Safe assumption in my eye.
And well perhaps not, it could be a trite self concocted story about how she overcome what she once was (even though she ends up running right back to it at the first chance she gets)
I'm on the fence with that, but either way, I don't have an issue for the same reasons as you.
Yesssssssss, this is exactly why I was perplexed at the whole 'sociopath' thought. She's so gentle and kind, I mean look at how she is with that little nug?
I was merely pointing out how she shares several traits in common with a sociopath, calling her one is debatable but the fact of the matter is she can kill with out remorse, she can even enjoy it, she can basically be comfortable living a lie, faking emotion, so my point to you is.
How can i be faulted for wondering if the entire veneer she presents in the first place to be false?
I was merely pointing out how she shares several traits in common with a sociopath, calling her one is debatable but the fact of the matter is she can kill with out remorse, she can even enjoy it, she can basically be comfortable living a lie, faking emotion, so my point to you is.
How can i be faulted for wondering if the entire veneer she presents in the first place to be false?
Well, you did say she went "from sociopath to lunatic" so I think it's understandable that I perceived your comment as stating she was, or at least had been, a sociopath.
I'm not faulting you I was just confused and a bit more curious than anything because of how I thought of her character to be and the definiton of 'sociopath'.
gosh, I haven't used the word sociopath this much since high school lol.
This is my own personal bias showing, but I don't believe that is actually true. Maybe if you were trying to win popular support, and had to gain the approval of others in order to get your "middle ground", then yeah there might not be a middle ground popular enough for people to support.
But in terms of a persons own opinion? Their viewpoint on morals, believes, norms, and principles? I don't think anyone actually feels like a solution is nothing when they talk of the middle ground, there is just the thought of whether it's feasible or not.
I'm asking for a character to express a view in favor of finding a middle ground and being aggressive/not afraid to be abrasive, about it. That doesn't need to translate into actualization or action, as most characters expressed viewpoints never do, but it would be good to have it at least said aloud.
What the middle ground is though is a tougher discussion, as well as what some might consider a middle ground, or even if there is a true middle ground and not simply ground affected by the shades of the other extremes. It's a much harder question then I gave it credit for when I first wrote this.
Ok I admit that I over simplified when I said that sometimes there is no middle ground, there is always a chance for compromise whether it is on a large or pesonal scale. My personal opinion as a student of history is that all compromise is temporary and only serves to delay and even intesify the eventual conflict that arises from the disagreement.
Well, you did say she went "from sociopath to lunatic" so I think it's understandable that I perceived your comment as stating she was, or at least had been, a sociopath.
I'm not faulting you
gosh, I haven't used the word sociopath this much since high school lol.
I personally precieve her to be a sociopath and i do admit its a word i myself rarely use 
Ok I admit that I over simplified when I said that sometimes there is no middle ground, there is always a chance for compromise whether it is on a large or pesonal scale. My personal opinion as a student of history is that all compromise is temporary and only serves to delay and even intesify the eventual conflict that arises from the disagreement.
Fair enough, and personally I wouldn't mind the story playing out that way. Would make for an interesting character arc if written well enough.
Fair enough, and personally I wouldn't mind the story playing out that way. Would make for an interesting character arc if written well enough.
Well I'm glad we can agree to disagree (not 100% sure I used that saying correctly). Also I do like your idea for a character that rips into everyone elses veiwpoints as long as the other characters call him/her/it out on not having a soultion of their own.
I know it's a common Bioware trope.
But gosh dang it I miss this guy:
Sarcastic, gruff, supportive but totally willing to call out bs when he sees it. Stands neither in the light or the dark. The ultimate grey Jedi.
The perfect moderate.
Sarcastic, gruff, supportive but totally willing to call out bs when he sees it. Stands neither in the light or the dark. The ultimate grey Jedi.
The perfect moderate.
He does eventually pick a side though.
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