697 réponses à ce sujet

[Heimdall]

Well that is the lore, the same is said about female roles. Even the ones that are connected with warfare are in the faith side and rare. It is like saying, I do not buy it that they do not have at least one female soldier. 

Not what I mean.  I mean that I don't buy that somehow females can participate in the military branch (In support roles), but there is no parallel in the artisan branch for males (Despite their strength).

 

I don't question Qunari practice regarding gender division, I'm just skeptical that there are no subordinate roles in the Artisans that take advantage of their males' physical strength.

[Heimdall]

I mean what is so unrealistic about the humans? They have abs and thats about it, taking into consideration that they have to use a single body as a template for others, its not unrealistic really.

I updated my response.  Real humans don't build up that sort of muscle without specifically training to, and nobody did that sort of thing in the medieval era.

[SerCambria358]

Red hair? Orange hair maybe, but I wouldn't call him a red head. And sunken cheeks? who cares? Who actually is bothered by that? Who even notices that?

Im not bothered by it, its showing that they're willing to change designs of a character let alone the general look of a race, you jump to conclusions based on made up implications.

 

and yea thats definitely red:

[SerCambria358]

I updated my response.  Real humans don't build up that sort of muscle without specifically training to, and nobody did that sort of thing in the medieval era.

But they werent big really, they seemed athletic and again thats probably due to them rehashing the body model to every of a particular race. 

[Herr Uhl]

They don't need to be masons to do pure old fashion heavy lifting, and it might make sense if the muscle mass disparity is as great as the concept art indicates.  Didn't someone a few pages back mention Athlok (Basic worker I think) as a role?  Tallis was demoted to one, but I could see thst being one of the rare ones both sexes could be part of.

 

I just don't buy that the Qunari have absolutely no use for males outside being priests or soldiers, with their mindset you'd think they'd want to take advantage of their physical strength.

Even so, every kind of physical labour brought up along with Qunari, outside of battle, has been given to females. I'd guess a male in her position would become either a grunt or something further down the priesthood line, like a researcher or something? Depending on aptitude.

 

They might just have a huge amount of soldiers to make up for it.

[Mihura]

Not what I mean.  I mean that I don't buy that somehow females can participate in the military branch (In support roles), but there is no parallel in the artisan branch for males (Despite their strength).

 

I don't question Qunari practice regarding gender division, I'm just skeptical that there are no subordinate roles in the Artisans that take advantage of their males' physical strength.

 

That would not make sense. If males are strong they are better suited to be soldiers according to their division of roles. It would be another story if the females were consider weak, since they are not. There is no need for males on that type of roles.

 

The same could be said about being a soldier in their society, since females are better organizers, it would be a wast of time too. All this according to their lore of course. 

[Heimdall]

But they werent big really, they seemed athletic and again thats probably due to them rehashing the body model to every of a particular race. 

Athetic in the modern sense of a dedicated athlete maybe.  They have the athletic build of a modern person doing modern exercises.  Nobody did those sort of excercise in the middle ages, they didn't develop any muscle aside from what they used in their day to day lives, which wasn't much.  Even soldiers wouldn't develop muscle that way, except strictly where they needed it for swinging a sword.

[SerCambria358]

Athetic in the modern sense of a dedicated athlete maybe.  They have the athletic build of a modern person doing modern exercises.  Nobody did those sort of excercise in the middle ages, they didn't develop any muscle aside from what they used in their day to day lives, which wasn't much.  Even soldiers wouldn't develop muscle that way, except strictly where they needed it for swinging a sword.

I think you underestimate the amount of training medieval knights would've endured for most of their lives, they can definitely develop that sort of build easily, especially considering the armor and weapons they used. Also take into consideration since our character is  noble they'd have that same training. Yes most peasants would not have that athletic build but thats a problem due to game mechanics

[KaiserShep]

A little creative license never hurts when dealing with the human physique, even in a medieval fantasy. It doesn't matter what real people in medieval times had in terms of muscle mass or whatever.

[Heimdall]

That would not make sense. If males are strong they are better suited to be soldiers according to their division of roles. It would be another story if the females were consider weak, since they are not. There is no need for males on that type of roles.

 

The same could be said about being a soldiers in their society, since females are better organizers, it would be a wast of time too. All this according to their lore of course. 

But females DO have roles in the military hierarchy, as quartermasters and overseeing of supply matters.  It seems strange that they could have no similarly supportive role in the artisan hierarchy without being artisans themselves.

 

If male strength makes them more fit to be soldiers in the Qunari logic, I don't see how they could think soldiery to be the sole application of that strength, especially since they clearly don't think males are solely capable of being soldiers as the priesthood shows.

[Brass_Buckles]

Athetic in the modern sense of a dedicated athlete maybe.  They have the athletic build of a modern person doing modern exercises.  Nobody did those sort of excercise in the middle ages, they didn't develop any muscle aside from what they used in their day to day lives, which wasn't much.  Even soldiers wouldn't develop muscle that way, except strictly where they needed it for swinging a sword.

 

In Ser Cambria's defense, there were bodybuilding (of a sort) athletes in the past in ancient Greece and Rome.  Most people weren't toned then either, but there certainly were some--hence where their statues of the ideal human form came from.

 

So the muscular human form would not have been an alien concept to medieval people, who would have seen those statues around--a lot of the old temples and such hadn't fallen totally into ruin yet.  I am equally sure that some people did in fact have that sort of build--just not many.  And yes, there would have been people who went out of their way to have such a physique, if only for entertainment value (actors, minstrels, and the like who would have entertained crowds of people.  Not as likely for women as for men--and at some point I do believe a pot belly was considered attractive, though not sure if that was in the Middle Ages or not).

[Heimdall]

A little creative license never hurts when dealing with the human physique, even in a medieval fantasy. It doesn't matter what real people in medieval times had in terms of muscle mass or whatever.

I agree, which is why I'm against it being used as a yardstick to measure the Qunari against.

[Herr Uhl]

But females DO have roles in the military hierarchy, as quartermasters and overseeing of supply matters.  It seems strange that they could have no similarly supportive role in the artisan hierarchy without being artisans themselves.

 

If male strength makes them more fit to be soldiers in the Qunari logic, I don't see how they could think soldiery to be the sole application of that strength, especially since they clearly don't think males are solely capable of being soldiers as the priesthood shows.

Being a quartermaster for the military is almost identical to being one for civilians. They don't do any fighting. I guess you could see the soldiers that guard home provinces as something similar to what the quartermasters do.

 

The main difference is that the Arishok gets to decide where the goods are transported and kept instead of the Arigena.

[Heimdall]

In Ser Cambria's defense, there were bodybuilding (of a sort) athletes in the past in ancient Greece and Rome.  Most people weren't toned then either, but there certainly were some--hence where their statues of the ideal human form came from.

 

So the muscular human form would not have been an alien concept to medieval people, who would have seen those statues around--a lot of the old temples and such hadn't fallen totally into ruin yet.  I am equally sure that some people did in fact have that sort of build--just not many.  And yes, there would have been people who went out of their way to have such a physique, if only for entertainment value (actors, minstrels, and the like who would have entertained crowds of people.  Not as likely for women as for men--and at some point I do believe a pot belly was considered attractive, though not sure if that was in the Middle Ages or not).

(During the rennaissance there was period where "softness" of form was considered attractive for both men and women.  It meant you were successful enough to indulge your appetite and not do direct physical labor)

 

Certainly there have always been people trying to build muscle, but its worth noting that there was a reason that the most muscular of those statues were of gods rather than men.  It was a peculiarity.

[Heimdall]

Being a quartermaster for the military is almost identical to being one for civilians. They don't do any fighting. I guess you could see the soldiers that guard home provinces as something similar to what the quartermasters do.

Yet the priesthood can have females fighting as long as its under the priesthood.

 

I'm not suggesting males be artisans.

[SerCambria358]

(During the rennaissance there was period where "softness" of form was considered attractive for both men and women.  It meant you were successful enough to indulge your appetite and not do direct physical labor)

 

Certainly there have always been people trying to build muscle, but its worth noting that there was a reason that the most muscular of those statues were of gods rather than men.  It was a peculiarity.

Yes but thats in regards to nobility who had no part in the battlefield, Knights raised as squires training till they're knighted could easily have an athletic build, since they are usually of noble class, they'd have access to the nutrition to gain some muscle (not a ridiculous amount) Its not unrealistic at all really, its just a trait that wouldnt have been seen in peasants unless they were gifted genetically which has been recorded a few times. 

[Heimdall]

I think you underestimate the amount of training medieval knights would've endured for most of their lives, they can definitely develop that sort of build easily, especially considering the armor and weapons they used. Also take into consideration since our character is  noble they'd have that same training. Yes most peasants would not have that athletic build but thats a problem due to game mechanics

They can develop a build, certainly not one that well rounded.  Like a day laboror, a medieval knight would develop powerful muscles of those they used (And you would be surprised by how few that is) but, once again, such a trained build as we are shown is quite a modern phenomenon.

[Heimdall]

Yes but thats in regards to nobility who had no part in the battlefield, Knights raised as squires training till they're knighted could easily have an athletic build, since they are usually of noble class, they'd have access to the nutrition to gain some muscle (not a ridiculous amount) Its not unrealistic at all really, its just a trait that wouldnt have been seen in peasants unless they were gifted genetically which has been recorded a few times. 

I'm not saying they didn't have muscles.  I'm saying they had a few very well developed muscles and a bunch they barely used at all, not a modern athlete's build as we're given in the game.

[Mihura]

But females DO have roles in the military hierarchy, as quartermasters and overseeing of supply matters.  It seems strange that they could have no similarly supportive role in the artisan hierarchy without being artisans themselves.

 

If male strength makes them more fit to be soldiers in the Qunari logic, I don't see how they could think soldiery to be the sole application of that strength, especially since they clearly don't think males are solely capable of being soldiers as the priesthood shows.

 

But it is in organizing or faith, it is never on front lines. It makes sense that they have no males on that roles or at least it is really rare like Talis and always connect in the gender type of task, somehow. If the male qunari is strong why put it in organizing when you have females that are physical capable and good organizers. Like I said makes no sense and to me it just seems like a wast of resources.  

 

Sten said that females could never be soldiers unless the person was consider male, maybe the same applies for qunari female roles. That way they are still all female even with exceptions to the rule. 

[SerCambria358]

Can develop a build, certainly not one that well rounded.  Like a day laboror, a medieval knight would develop powerful muscles of those they used but, once again, such a trained build as we are shown is quite a modern phenomenon.

Well thats obvious, point is its not tremendously unrealistic, if unrealistic at all, therefore using the Qunari's muscle mass to speculate their actually physical capabilities is fair and legitimate. The fact that the designers chose that build tells the intent on what they wanted the races physical attributes to be like 

[Giant ambush beetle]

once again, such a trained build as we are shown is quite a modern phenomenon.

 

Which is not entirely true, ancient Greek Olympic athletes participating in several disciplines had to be as fit as possible, they even lifted weights and didn't do anything but exercise for the Olympic events. They even had special diets to build more muscle. Not to mention ancient circus strong-men. People have been lifting weights for thousands of years. 

But such physique is completely unrealistic for average-joe-knight.   

 

But to be perfectly honest, my inquisitor having a powerful muscular build doesn't bother me at all, I'm a weight lifter in real life and this is a role playing game so...yeah, my Inquisitor would lift the hell out of himself on off-days.  

[Heimdall]

But it is in organizing or faith, it is never on front lines. It makes sense that they have no males on that roles or at least it is really rare like Talis and always connect in the gender type of task, somehow. If the male qunari is strong why put it in organizing when you have females that are physical capable and good organizers. Like I said makes no sense and to me it just seems like a wast of resources.  

 

Sten said that females could never be soldiers unless the person was consider male, maybe the same applies for qunari female roles. That way they are still all female even with exceptions to the rule. 

I'm talking about artisans, not administrators.  I'm not even talking about administrators within the artisans.  I'm talking about males performing basic unskilled physical labor in support of the actual skilled female artisans.  A support role, not artisans themselves.

[Heimdall]

Which is not entirely true, ancient Greek Olympic athletes participating in several disciplines had to be as fit as possible, they even lifted weights and didn't do anything but exercise for the Olympic events. They even had special diets to build more muscle. 

But such physique is completely unrealistic for average-joe-knight.   

 

But to be perfectly honest, my inquisitor having a powerful muscular build doesn't bother me at all, I'm a weight lifter in real life and this is a role playing game so...yeah, my Inquisitor would lift the hell out of himself on off-days.  

Oh, I don't have a problem with it either, I just don't think people should read anything into it in game.

[Mihura]

I'm talking about artisans, not administrators.  I'm not even talking about administrators within the artisans.  I'm talking about males performing basic unskilled physical labor in support of the actual skilled female artisans.  A support role, not artisans themselves.

 

Still, why waste that qunari soldier on unskilled labor, if he could be on the front lines? Since the females qunari are more than capable, that makes little sense. That is the problem with that argument, they hate wasting resources.

[Heimdall]

Well thats obvious, point is its not tremendously unrealistic, if unrealistic at all, therefore using the Qunari's muscle mass to speculate their actually physical capabilities is fair and legitimate. The fact that the designers chose that build tells the intent on what they wanted the races physical attributes to be like 

It is unrealistic for a real medieval knight or virtually all medieval people in general.  The Qunari build isn't unrealistic for a modern human body builder.  If you want to say Qunari are stronger based on the difference between human muscle mass and Qunari muscle mass in game, I have no problem with it.

 

Just don't make fallacious comparisons to real medieval humans.  Nobody in Dragon Age is built like a real medieval human.