300 réponses à ce sujet

[ImaginaryMatter]

Is that logic, or metagaming justified by wishful thinking?

 

I think it's more along the lines of just not caring, at least that's my mentality for the endings.

[AlanC9]

So what if I told you that you can save a million lives by shooting yourself in the head? You know, just in case I wasn't lying you should do it.

And I know for certain they'll die if nothing changes, and I'll die anyway? Yeah, sure, might as well take the shot.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Who actually built the decision chamber anyway. It's on the citadel and not part of the crucible.

Also why didn't the catalyst just empty all the oxygen out of the chamber, let shep suffocate and continue the harvest?

No it's Crucible.

 

*edit 2*

 

And this thread of mine: http://social.biowar...ndex/16890923/1

[SwobyJ]

What oxygen?

[Brass_Buckles]

Hm.

 

Through ME3, I didn't think Shepard would survive, but I really wanted her to.  I can't even remember which choice I picked on the first playthrough ending because I was so confused by it I just sort of stumbled around like other people said--it was ridiculously late and this sudden twist made no sense to me and I hadn't been able to save my game for the last however long.  I figured it was on a timer and I couldn't change my mind.  Seems like maybe I picked Control, but I wanted to choose Destroy.  At the time I was wavering between Control and Destroy, and at the time I had no idea that Destroy would let Shepard live with high enough EMS (which I had, because of multiplayer).  This was something like 3-4 days after the game's release, and I'd been avoiding spoilers and this forum for all I was worth.  There was no EC.

 

When I picked Destroy after a reload, I assumed Shepard would die then too.  But no, she got to live this time.

 

My problem wasn't whether or not Shepard lived, but the fact that when the endings are canned and your death is going to happen no matter what you do, it means nothing.  Even the EC didn't fully remedy that.

 

I leaned toward Destroy even though I was a paragon, because it's what I set out to do in the first place.  And because the Catalyst was a bit too pushy toward the other two options.  Why, I asked myself, does this machine want me to choose those two options?  It's clear why it would push Synthesis--it won't be destroyed.  But then I also looked at what happened to TIM, and it seemed to me that Synthesis sounded a whole lot like run-of-the-mill Indoctrination, which we all know is bad news.  I couldn't picture my Shepard not thinking the same thing, no matter how positive her attitude had been this whole time.  I didn't want to destroy EDI and the geth, but the way I saw it, and the way my Shepard would see it, Control might be a way for the Reapers to use her like they did TIM, and Synthesis would make everyone a husk/cannibal/marauder etc.  Does that make Destroy a better choice?  ... Well, not really, because I still have no reason to trust the Catalyst.  But if the Reaper's trying to talk me out of it, either it's using reverse psychology or it may be a better option for me.

 

While I'd prefer to refuse--it's possible to refuse through dialogue in the EC, and not just by shooting the Catalyst--that's pretty much sentencing everyone to death through my own inaction.  It's clear if you start to refuse to act, the Catalyst starts to get angry and is not going to give in to your demands.  It doesn't have to.   So, it's pointless to refuse to act as well, and I think Shepard would see that when the Catalyst begins to get angry (though maybe not from being angry him/herself and shooting the Catalyst before it gets angry). Though it's interesting to me that a supposedly totally logical, unemotional machine can get angry, it does.  It also expresses an interest to continue its own existence (via Synthesis)--though I wonder if some tiny part of it doesn't continue to exist in Control.  It's supposedly overwritten by the Shepard-AI, but all of the endings are fairly ambiguous and open-ended, so it's hard to say.

 

From a metagame standpoint, despite the Space Magic and the silliness of machines with DNA and changing DNA of all things on a galactic scale, I'd say Synthesis is absolutely the best option.  The only people who suffer for it are your crew and others who were close to you (Spacer Shepard's mother).  Most LIs do not strike me as being likely to give up and commit suicide or live a lonely existence because Shepard is dead; eventually they will move on even if they still grieve for Shepard.  The problem is, Shepard can't know that ANY decision, much less the madness of Synthesis, will work.  As for Control, well, I'm not fond of the idea of Shepard as Mecha-God Overseer of the Galaxy.  As others pointed out, there are potential problems with that, not least of which that the ethics and morality of the galaxy may change in ways that AI-Shepard would be unable to adapt to, and then you'd have problems.

 

In any case, it's tempting to metagame the ending knowing you can survive in the Destroy ending, so to answer the OP, yes, all endings should have ended in Shepard's death, or else all of them should have had the possibility for Shepard's survival.  I'm leaning toward the latter, because then I could have made the choice to do an epic self-sacrifice that meant something--unless survival was tied to EMS across the board, in which case I'd probably survive in every playthrough, but it would have surprised me (pleasantly) in the first playthrough.  My point being, martyrdom isn't quite as impressive when it's your only option--Shepard has no way of knowing that he or she will survive any of the endings.  In fact it's made pretty plain that he/she shouldn't expect to.  I wouldn't even really call it martyrdom or sacrifice.  Just duty.  If I had the option to win and survive, but chose the sacrifice, then it would have more meaning because I sacrificed my character to ensure the best possible outcome for the galaxy.

 

Not sure if any of that made sense to anyone other than me... It's getting late and I'm getting tired.

[Scott Sion]

I chose destroy on my initial play through, at the time it was assumed he died in all three endings. 

 

Besides, he doesn't really die in control. He loses his physical body, but he could just assume direct control of some sap and be on his merry way. He could also upload his being into a mobile platform. Shep has all of the Reaper's technology at his finger tips, he could easily use it to "bring himself back". When it comes down to it, Shep doesn't really die in any sense of the word when it comes to control.

[ImaginaryMatter]

No it's Crucible.
 

*edit 2*

 

And this thread of mine: http://social.biowar...ndex/16890923/1

 

Okay, except when Shepard asks the question, "Where am I." The Catalyst responds, "The Citadel. It's my home."

 

Plus, the clamp things that attach the Crucible to the Citadel along the Presidium rings appear to be in the background of the Catalyst conversation. They seem to slant inwards as you look up suggesting that the thing above Shepard is in fact the Crucible.

[AlanC9]

I leaned toward Destroy even though I was a paragon, because it's what I set out to do in the first place.  And because the Catalyst was a bit too pushy toward the other two options.  Why, I asked myself, does this machine want me to choose those two options?  It's clear why it would push Synthesis--it won't be destroyed.  But then I also looked at what happened to TIM, and it seemed to me that Synthesis sounded a whole lot like run-of-the-mill Indoctrination, which we all know is bad news.  I couldn't picture my Shepard not thinking the same thing, no matter how positive her attitude had been this whole time.  I didn't want to destroy EDI and the geth, but the way I saw it, and the way my Shepard would see it, Control might be a way for the Reapers to use her like they did TIM, and Synthesis would make everyone a husk/cannibal/marauder etc.  Does that make Destroy a better choice?  ... Well, not really, because I still have no reason to trust the Catalyst.  But if the Reaper's trying to talk me out of it, either it's using reverse psychology or it may be a better option for me.

 

 

Well, there are two obvious problems here. First, why does what you were trying to do in the first place actually matter? I don't think this is actually an example of the sunk cost fallacy since you haven't paid any Destroy-specific costs, but it's intellectually confused -- unless this is a non-RP argument and you're favoring Destroy for "thematic" reasons or some such.

 

As for the rest, there's nothing wrong with Shepard being wrong about Control and Synthesis for RP purposes. But the particular way your Shepard is being wrong about them requires a really weird set of constraints on the Catalyst. It's like he's being watched over by lawyers or something, so he must tell the literal truth but is allowed to use truth to mislead. It's not very believable. Unless you just plain want to believe it, which seems to be the case here.

 

I do agree that the choice as presented doesn't really do much, RP-wise. Even if you're playing a Shepard who would value his personal survival compared to the other factors --plausible if the geth are already dead or you're playing an organic-supremacist bigot - as presented Shepard shouldn't really think there's any chance to survive Destroy, so for RP it doesn't matter.

[wright1978]

Is that logic, or metagaming justified by wishful thinking?

Logic, if I'm given options of do nothing, commit suicide, commit suicide or shoot a tube, my Shep has little choice but to choose the last one.

[AlanC9]

 I thought the whole premise of this logic is that the Catalyst is trying to mislead you or some such. If he is, what are the grounds for believing that shooting the tube won't kill you but grabbing the control rods will? 

 

And even on your premises, why is shooting the tube better than doing nothing?

[Brass_Buckles]

Well, there are two obvious problems here. First, why does what you were trying to do in the first place actually matter? I don't think this is actually an example of the sunk cost fallacy since you haven't paid any Destroy-specific costs, but it's intellectually confused -- unless this is a non-RP argument and you're favoring Destroy for "thematic" reasons or some such.

 

As for the rest, there's nothing wrong with Shepard being wrong about Control and Synthesis for RP purposes. But the particular way your Shepard is being wrong about them requires a really weird set of constraints on the Catalyst. It's like he's being watched over by lawyers or something, so he must tell the literal truth but is allowed to use truth to mislead. It's not very believable. Unless you just plain want to believe it, which seems to be the case here.

 

I do agree that the choice as presented doesn't really do much, RP-wise. Even if you're playing a Shepard who would value his personal survival compared to the other factors --plausible if the geth are already dead or you're playing an organic-supremacist bigot - as presented Shepard shouldn't really think there's any chance to survive Destroy, so for RP it doesn't matter.

 

No, it's more like:  The Reapers have been my enemies throughout three games.  They have wanted me dead or indoctrinated.  If I were Shepard, I'd be feeling incredibly suspicious.  Synthesis sounded like Indoctrination, Control was what TIM wanted but I have no reason to think that I'd end up in TIM's shoes.  So even though the Reaper is probably lying about Destroy, too, it seems at the very least to be the option the Reapers like least (aside from Refuse, which wasn't an option the first time or two I played the ending).

 

So in other words, I didn't think the Reaper was telling the truth about anything, at least on the face of it.  And why wouldn't a superintelligent machine lie to get what it wants?  Of course it doesn't want to be destroyed, so it's not going to want you to do that, it's going to urge you toward Synthesis.  My Shepard would see that as Indoctrination, when the reality, if I were metagaming, is that everyone is improved all around.  (It's the best ending for society, ostensibly, but even metagaming I couldn't choose it lightly because you're ONE person choosing for everyone else, regardless of species, background, etc. and a lot of them are realistically speaking going to be traumatized by the mere mention, nevermind sight, of Reapers... which they will now have to deal with constantly.  Not to mention it's ridiculously space-magicky.  On the whole I prefer Destroy, but my personal preference isn't the reason that I choose it, so much as I think about what Shepard would be thinking about what she's told.  Again, Shepard has no reason to believe anything the Reaper says, but it would stand out that the Reapers don't want you to pick Destroy.  So even if it doesn't destroy them, it's obviously not going to do something that is good for the Reapers.  Either that or you're being reverse-psychologied all over the place.)

[wright1978]

I thought the whole premise of this logic is that the Catalyst is trying to mislead you or some such. If he is, what are the grounds for believing that shooting the tube won't kill you but grabbing the control rods will? 
 
And even on your premises, why is shooting the tube better than doing nothing?

Grabbing electric rods or jumping into a beam seem suicidal without having to believe a word the catalyst says. Shooting the tube might very well kill my Shep but there's a chance the explosion might hurt the catalyst. Of the available options it is the least objectionable.

Because I'm not given option to contact fleet to get them to focus attack on citadel.

[Iamjdr]

I thought the whole premise of this logic is that the Catalyst is trying to mislead you or some such. If he is, what are the grounds for believing that shooting the tube won't kill you but grabbing the control rods will?

And even on your premises, why is shooting the tube better than doing nothing?

I always interpreted the catalyst scene as being completely honest. But he is telling shep what HE "himself" believes is an absolute truth through his millennia of observation. So the question you really gotta figure out, is just because this the conclusion the catalyst believes and has come to, does that make him right? Unfortunately for himself and the reapers, I happen to disagree....violently...and I shoot the tube everytime. because no matter what, if he is lying then I have no chance anyway. And The reapers are a symbol of oppression that I could never justify keeping around the galaxy, even if they honestly decided to make nice if I zapped myself with some electricity. So I send the reapers to hell, and if my grandchildren do make machines that rise up...those whippersnappers better make like grandpa and send them to meet their predecessors.

[ImaginaryMatter]

 I thought the whole premise of this logic is that the Catalyst is trying to mislead you or some such. If he is, what are the grounds for believing that shooting the tube won't kill you but grabbing the control rods will? 

 

And even on your premises, why is shooting the tube better than doing nothing?

 

Perhaps the Catalyst fears that the engineers on board the Crucible or someone else might figure out how to actually turn it on. Perhaps, the Catalyst want's Shepard to kill himself or sabotage the machine. Perhaps there is a big red button on the other side that Shepard might find if he wonders about. Perhaps the Crucible needs time to warm up. Perhaps through Reaper short sightedness the Victory fleet wins and Shepard can relax reassuring himself that he did a job well done. Maybe, he can wait for further instructions from a tech expert. I'm sure there are a lot of reasons to wait around that could occur to Shepard.

[Iamjdr]

Perhaps the Catalyst fears that the engineers on board the Crucible or someone else might figure out how to actually turn it on. Perhaps, the Catalyst want's Shepard to kill himself or sabotage the machine. Perhaps there is a big red button on the other side that Shepard might find if he wonders about. Perhaps the Crucible needs time to warm up. Perhaps through Reaper short sightedness the Victory fleet wins and Shepard can relax reassuring himself that he did a job well done. Maybe, he can wait for further instructions from a tech expert. I'm sure there are a lot of reasons to wait around that could occur to Shepard.

Only problem with that is, wait to long and the crucible might be destroyed ( which I'm pretty sure actually happens ingame) or shep might pass out again from blood loss. There's also a chance that communications where cut off, seeing as Hackett goes completely off coms once shep got raised up to the chamber so waiting around for someone else might not be the best idea either. It's pretty much boils down to a now or never type of situation. You either take a chance with one of the 3 choices or everyone is dead anyways.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Only problem with that is, wait to long and the crucible might be destroyed ( which I'm pretty sure actually happens ingame) or shep might pass out again from blood loss. There's also a chance that communications where cut off, seeing as Hackett goes completely off coms once shep got raised up to the chamber so waiting around for someone else might not be the best idea either. It's pretty much boils down to a now or never type of situation. You either take a chance with one of the 3 choices or your dead anyways.

 

Well if I was Shepard personally the first thing I would do is question the Catalyst why I should trust him and perhaps ask for a sign of good faith. Then go on to about a good few dozen questions or so.

[DeinonSlayer]

Well if I was Shepard personally the first thing I would do is question the Catalyst why I should trust him and perhaps ask for a sign of good faith. Then go on to about a good few dozen questions or so.

Getting it to cease all hostile actions while you play twenty questions would be a nice first step. Allied ships and their crews are visibly dying for every second Shepard is dicking around in there.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Getting it to cease all hostile actions while you play twenty questions would be a nice first step. Allied ships and their crews are visibly dying for every second Shepard is dicking around in there.

 

Good point.

[Iamjdr]

But I don't really think it would stop the reapers from attacking. The catalyst still seems to believe the reapers may be nessicary if you can't make a choice. Plus I doubt it would really see stopping the reapers from attacking as a very smart move as that wouldnt really stop the fleets from firing on the reapers. More like easy targets.

[Iamjdr]

I also am not completely sure how much control the catalyst actually even has over the reapers because that is never really explained. So there is no saying if he even can shut them down.

[Vigilant111]

 I thought the whole premise of this logic is that the Catalyst is trying to mislead you or some such. If he is, what are the grounds for believing that shooting the tube won't kill you but grabbing the control rods will? 

 

And even on your premises, why is shooting the tube better than doing nothing?

 

Essentially, the shooting of the tube probably does nothing, people chose this option simply because they would not take any other option

 

Well, shooting the tube is like vandalizing reaper property, some view this as an act of defiance, some view this as a last stand to produce some positive result no matter how feeble it is

[Iakus]

Essentially, the shooting of the tube probably does nothing, people chose this option simply because they would not take any other option

 

Well, shooting the tube is like vandalizing reaper property, some view this as an act of defiance, some view this as a last stand to produce some positive result no matter how feeble it is

 

Defiance:  http://www.youtube.c...h?v=bApdjLFcVUk 

[Vigilant111]

Defiance:  http://www.youtube.c...h?v=bApdjLFcVUk 

Hmm, a little off topic here, but when Iiara spoke of "mistake", what was she referring to? That Shepard was a mistake? Or the Crucible?

[AlanC9]

Well, shooting the tube is like vandalizing reaper property, some view this as an act of defiance, some view this as a last stand to produce some positive result no matter how feeble it is

So it's a kind of doublethink, eh. Shepard doesn't believe the option's real, so he shoots the tube, and the player's OK with it because he wants Destroy anyway.

Convenient. It's a good thing shooting the tube doesn't trigger Synthesis, or you guys would need a different rationale.

[AlanC9]

Getting it to cease all hostile actions while you play twenty questions would be a nice first step. Allied ships and their crews are visibly dying for every second Shepard is dicking around in there.

Even if he could, would he? His best option is still blowing up the Crucible.