300 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

Thing is, that % is up to the player. JasonShepard's Shepalyst can simulate an organic Shepard with 98.95% accuracy. The other 1.05% he tells people he prefers wine when Shepard actually preferred beer.

 

Point being, this is in the discretion of the player now. If you want to not pick Control because you assert that the Shepalyst will pull another Catalyst, then by all means don't. If you pick it because you believe the data is going to be accurate enough to pick it and avoid killing all synthetics and destroying the Citadel, then do it. This really is in the realm of speculation, so saying the Shepalyst isn't Shepard and will go crazy holds about as much weight to someone who picks Control as telling a Destroyer that synthetics will return and wipe out all organics.

Well, except the trilogy goes out of its way to point out that organics and synthetics think in ways that are fundamentally different.  And even different species of organics process things differently.

 

So a synthetic version of Commander Shepard is going to be a completely different person than an organic Shepard, even if they share the same memories.

[Propelled Rage]

"Your belief is not required."

I found it much harder to believe that shooting a pipe would somehow kill the Reapers when it could have easily sabotaged the Crucible instead, but it does, my beliefs are irrelevant. Same with Control and Synthesis, you may believe one thing but it doesn't matter, what the Catalyst says will happen, happens.

 

Does it now? Okay.

 

And I wasn't arguing about the semantics required to achieve those paths, not at this instance. Its a separate thing as to how you achieve your preferred choice. Fair enough you might feel shooting a tube sounds stupid but I was talking more about the core choice. I don't trust anything coming from reapers, their collective consciousness or whatever, I (and I'm talking about my character here) have seen one too many examples & only know one way to defeat them.

[Xilizhra]

Well, except the trilogy goes out of its way to point out that organics and synthetics think in ways that are fundamentally different.  And even different species of organics process things differently.

 

So a synthetic version of Commander Shepard is going to be a completely different person than an organic Shepard, even if they share the same memories.

Differences may exist, but I'd find it baffling as to why you'd want to roleplay your Shepard as turning on the galaxy afterward, and utterly insulting to claim that it'll happen in other peoples' playthroughs.

[Iakus]

Differences may exist, but I'd find it baffling as to why you'd want to roleplay your Shepard as turning on the galaxy afterward, and utterly insulting to claim that it'll happen in other peoples' playthroughs.

 

That's just it though:  It's not my Shepard.  It's not anyone's Shepard.  It's a facimile, and completely outside my control. 

 

My Shepard would be that dead lump of charcoal lying by the control rods.

 

If you want to imagine that in your playthrough everything works out fine, please be my guest.  I'm just pointing out that this isn't your Shepard anymore. 

[Xilizhra]

That's just it though:  It's not my Shepard.  It's not anyone's Shepard.  It's a facimile, and completely outside my control. 

 

My Shepard would be that dead lump of charcoal lying by the control rods.

 

If you want to imagine that in your playthrough everything works out fine, please be my guest.  I'm just pointing out that this isn't your Shepard anymore. 

All right, my Shepard-Catalyst if you prefer. Who's still under the player's control, given that you can determine its dialogue at the end.

[AresKeith]

All right, my Shepard-Catalyst if you prefer. Who's still under the player's control, given that you can determine its dialogue at the end.

 

For now

[CronoDragoon]

Well, except the trilogy goes out of its way to point out that organics and synthetics think in ways that are fundamentally different.  And even different species of organics process things differently.

 

So a synthetic version of Commander Shepard is going to be a completely different person than an organic Shepard, even if they share the same memories.

 

And this synthetic version of Commander Shepard is completely different from the synthetics you've encountered previously, so you really don't have much basis to determine how it will act. Bringing up how organics think differently strengthens this point. There's no reason to believe Shepard-AI will act or think like the geth or EDI or even the Catalyst, since the way in which the Catalyst was programmed has nothing to do (as far as we know) with how Shepard becomes the Catalyst.

[Iakus]

All right, my Shepard-Catalyst if you prefer. Who's still under the player's control, given that you can determine its dialogue at the end.

 

You don't actually.  It's determined only by base blue/red scores.  With a little variation based on the fate of the krogan.  There are zero dialogue options for the player.

 

Though I do give Bioware props for at least providing different lines for paragon/renegade versions.

 

You have zero control over the Shepard/Catalyst.

[Iakus]

And this synthetic version of Commander Shepard is completely different from the synthetics you've encountered previously, so you really don't have much basis to determine how it will act. Bringing up how organics think differently strengthens this point. There's no reason to believe Shepard-AI will act or think like the geth or EDI or even the Catalyst, since the way in which the Catalyst was programmed has nothing to do (as far as we know) with how Shepard becomes the Catalyst.

 

you left Shepard off your list

[AlanC9]

It's OK to say that the Sheplyst is something of a crapshoot, though, since in advance we don't know the accuracy of the process. But Destroy is also a crapshoot, since for all we know the Catalyst could have been completely right about everything. I suppose someone can come up with a bad hypothetical for Synthesis too.

[CronoDragoon]

you left Shepard off your list

 For good reason, because there actually is reason to believe Shepard-AI will act like Shepard, given that everything - all the information contained in Shepard's brain - is being translated into data and incorporated into a new synthetic personality. I'm not someone who's going to claim that Shepard-AI IS Shepard: it's an AI copy, but a sufficiently advanced AI with enough processing power to crunch numbers on the firing of neuron clusters and whatever else you want to stipulate is unique about organics can simulate an organic perfectly. That is my belief anyway, which necessarily includes the belief that the Catalyst has sufficient knowledge about organic brains from uploading minds to Reapers for millions of years to accurately translate the personality.

 

And since no one currently really knows how the brain works, neither you nor I can dispute this notion.

[AlanC9]

That's just it though: It's not my Shepard. It's not anyone's Shepard. It's a facimile, and completely outside my control.

My Shepard would be that dead lump of charcoal lying by the control rods.

If you want to imagine that in your playthrough everything works out fine, please be my guest. I'm just pointing out that this isn't your Shepard anymore.

While it's true that we don't control the Sheplyst, I don't see whether we have control as being all that significant. I don't control what my Bhaalspawn does after the final interaction in BG2: TOB either, even though there is content for the character whether ascended or not.

[Daemul]

*cough*

http://masseffect.wi...i/Virtual_Alien

[jtav]

There's always a point where one relinquishes control of a character. I don't have any control over what the Spirit Monk does after Li dies. And Control does give the player a great deal of agency over what Shepalyst is like. After that is fanfic. As it should be.

[von uber]

I suppose someone can come up with a bad hypothetical for Synthesis too.

What, you mean everything about synthesis?

[Iakus]

 For good reason, because there actually is reason to believe Shepard-AI will act like Shepard, given that everything - all the information contained in Shepard's brain - is being translated into data and incorporated into a new synthetic personality. I'm not someone who's going to claim that Shepard-AI IS Shepard: it's an AI copy, but a sufficiently advanced AI with enough processing power to crunch numbers on the firing of neuron clusters and whatever else you want to stipulate is unique about organics can simulate an organic perfectly. That is my belief anyway, which necessarily includes the belief that the Catalyst has sufficient knowledge about organic brains from uploading minds to Reapers for millions of years to accurately translate the personality.

 

And since no one currently really knows how the brain works, neither you nor I can dispute this notion.

If that was true then Synthesis would be a non-issue, as the Catalyst (and by extension the Reapers) would have already achieved "perfect understanding" of organics.

[Derpy]

Completely 100%.

 

No more Shepard hes a ******.

[Iakus]

While it's true that we don't control the Sheplyst, I don't see whether we have control as being all that significant. I don't control what my Bhaalspawn does after the final interaction in BG2: TOB either, even though there is content for the character whether ascended or not.

The Bhaalspawn is your character though.  Granted at some point the game ends and the story concludes. 

 

The Shepalyst is not, and never was, your character.  Sure you can dream up what happens next, just as you can for any other story.  But I'm just pointing out that you are not imagining what happens to Shepard next.  Shepard is dead.

[CronoDragoon]

If that was true then Synthesis would be a non-issue, as the Catalyst (and by extension the Reapers) would have already achieved "perfect understanding" of organics.

 

The Catalyst flat-out tells you he failed because organics weren't ready, and because he didn't have the Crucible.

[Iakus]

The Catalyst flat-out tells you he failed because organics weren't ready, and because he didn't have the Crucible.

 

Which makes no sense if the Catalyst is capable of a perfect simulation of an organic mind, with all the organic electrochemical emotional squishiness that goes with it.

 

In fact, the Catalyst outright says that this copy will not have any of Shepard's humanity.

 

Anyway, to get this back on topic:

 

Yes, Bioware made a mistake in tying Shepard's survival to one ending.  It's blatantly obvious that while some like the "heroic sacrifice" ending, or were at least at peace with it, a fair number of people did not want their Shepards to die.  Bioware should have respected that wish and allowed them an ending that

 

a) Didn't punish the player for wanting that and

Was more than a charred torso gasping in rubble.

[CronoDragoon]

Which makes no sense if the Catalyst is capable of a perfect simulation of an organic mind, with all the organic electrochemical emotional squishiness that goes with it.

 

In fact, the Catalyst outright says that this copy will not have any of Shepard's humanity.

 

1. The Catalyst understanding organics and organics being ready for Synthesis are not the same thing. If this isn't what you meant please explain.

 

2. Correct, Shepard is no longer human.

[Iakus]

1) The Catalyst understanding organics is at least half the equation: Organics seek perfection through technology.  Synthetics seek perfection through understanding.
 

2) No.  Shepard is dead.  The Shepalyst is not, and never was, human.  It has no human understanding or perspective.  Only the memories and in very broad strokes, the prsonality type, of a dead human

[Mcfly616]

I assume I will incur some wrath of simplistic & naive viewpoint when I say this, but I find it very hard to believe.

you're asserting that those who believe the Catalyst's logic is sound, are in fact "simplistic and naive"?

[Mcfly616]

2) No.  Shepard is dead.  The Shepalyst is not, and never was, human.  It has no human understanding or perspective.  Only the memories and in very broad strokes, the prsonality type, of a dead human

uhh..not quite. It is an exact replication of who Shepard is, his mind, his thought-processes. Shepard's corporeal form is dead. But who he was, his mind....lives on. Not broad strokes at all. Think of it as a carbon copy (well, in digital form).

To have a better understanding of this, you should look up some info on Calvin Sylveste from the novel Revelation Space. Or actually pick the book up if you're looking for some good sci fi literature. One which had a heavy influence on many aspects of Mass Effect. The Reapers, Dark Energy, transhumanism, dissolving one's corporeal form....so on and so forth. But be warned, the MEU would seem like a utopia compared to the RS universe. It's dark, brutal, with some noire vibes and somewhat gothic overtones.

[Iakus]

uhh..not quite. It is an exact replication of who Shepard is, his mind, his thought-processes. Shepard's corporeal form is dead. But who he was, his mind....lives on. Not broad strokes at all. Think of it as a carbon copy (well, in digital form).

To have a better understanding of this, you should look up some info on Calvin Sylveste from the novel Revelation Space. Or actually pick the book up if you're looking for some good sci fi literature. One which had a heavy influence on many aspects of Mass Effect. The Reapers, Dark Energy, transhumanism, dissolving one's corporeal form....so on and so forth. But be warned, the MEU would seem like a utopia compared to the RS universe. It's dark, brutal, with some noire vibes and somewhat gothic overtones.

 

 

No.  It is Shepard's thoughts and memories only.  It is most certainly not an exact replica.

 

"You will die.  You will control us, but you will lose everything you have"

"You will no longer be organic.  Your connection to your kind will be lost, but you will remain aware of their existence"