No. It is Shepard's thoughts and memories only. It is most certainly not an exact replica.
"You will die. You will control us, but you will lose everything you have"
"You will no longer be organic. Your connection to your kind will be lost, but you will remain aware of their existence"
Not to mention "The man/woman I was used these words."
1) The Catalyst understanding organics is at least half the equation: Organics seek perfection through technology. Synthetics seek perfection through understanding.
2) No. Shepard is dead. The Shepalyst is not, and never was, human. It has no human understanding or perspective. Only the memories and in very broad strokes, the prsonality type, of a dead human
1. So we agree.
2. That's literally what I said. As for the rest, you're intentionally interpreting the Catalyst's statements in the most negative light, which isn't my problem. Yes, Shepard is no longer organic and thus his connection to humans is lost. You've decided this means emotional connection, or whatever supports your view that he goes crazy.
No. It is Shepard's thoughts and memories only. It is most certainly not an exact replica.
"You will die. You will control us, but you will lose everything you have"
"You will no longer be organic. Your connection to your kind will be lost, but you will remain aware of their existence"
'Lose everything you have' - yes, Shepard no longer has the Normandy. No longer has any Credits. The Space-Hamster and the fish no longer belong to Shepard. That's how I take that sentence - Shepard no longer has any of his/her material possessions.
'Your connection to your kind will be lost' - well, Shepard is no longer human. No longer organic. The Commander isn't exactly in a position to go bottle shooting with Garrus, dancing with Jack, or take Ashley out to dinner. Those friendships will be extremely hard to maintain, if at all.
I agree that you can interpret those sentences as meaning that Shepard has lost his/her humanity, but it's not the only way of interpreting it. In any case, humanity is a rather nebulous concept. I've known dogs and cats with some pretty impressive emotional ranges.
cool story......you didn't state anything here that discredits what it means to dissolve your corporeal form by transferring your mind into a digital construct.No. It is Shepard's thoughts and memories only. It is most certainly not an exact replica.
"You will die. You will control us, but you will lose everything you have"
"You will no longer be organic. Your connection to your kind will be lost, but you will remain aware of their existence"
1. So we agree.
2. That's literally what I said. As for the rest, you're intentionally interpreting the Catalyst's statements in the most negative light, which isn't my problem. Yes, Shepard is no longer organic and thus his connection to humans is lost. You've decided this means emotional connection, or whatever supports your view that he goes crazy.
1) If you say so.
2) While I have in the past posited that the Shepalyst can go wonky again (and that it is an entirely valid interpretation), you should notice that this is not what I am arguing in this place and time. Just that the player's Shepard is dead in Control and the Shepalyst is not, in fact Shepard. Do you disagree with this?
cool story......you didn't state anything here that discredits what it means to dissolve your corporeal form by transferring your mind into a digital construct.
He loses everything he has because he is no longer human. All he's ever been is human. His human form is dissolved. Dead. His mind lives on. Like I said, go to the source of the inspiration in order to understand. Otherwise ...well, twist it in your own pessimistic misunderstanding of what occurs. Listing vague explanations by the Catalyst that only support what I've already said....well, that's not getting us anywhere.
I prefer to go to the actual game universe rather than invade someone else's. I like consistent rules.
You know, like the quantum bluebox, which even when uploaded with identical files, will create a different personality each time.
Thoughts and memories *are* Shepard. The best analogy for what's going on seems to be the afterlife. It's Shepard, but a fundamentally changed Shepard who has exchanged their old life for something we can't even conceive of.
Thoughts and memories *are* Shepard. The best analogy for what's going on seems to be the afterlife. It's Shepard, but a fundamentally changed Shepard who has exchanged their old life for something we can't even conceive of.
I don't hold to that. We're more than our thoughts. Legion even described it in ME2, how synthetics are purely software while organics are both hardware and software.
2) While I have in the past posited that the Shepalyst can go wonky again (and that it is an entirely valid interpretation), you should notice that this is not what I am arguing in this place and time. Just that the player's Shepard is dead in Control and the Shepalyst is not, in fact Shepard. Do you disagree with this?
You're right, it is a valid interpretation, and I have not suggested otherwise; only that it isn't the interpretation.
It actually is what you are arguing, since this argument began when I asserted there is reason to believe the Shepalyst will behave like Shepard when you said there was no reason to believe that. This led to the discussion about the Catalyst's ability (or rather the Crucible's ability) to accurately translate an organic mind to a synthetic one.
I've already said several times that I don't think the Shepalyst is exactly Shepard. Shepard the human is dead.
You're right, it is a valid interpretation, and I have not suggested otherwise; only that it isn't the interpretation.
It actually is what you are arguing, since this argument began when I asserted there is reason to believe the Shepalyst will behave like Shepard when you said there was no reason to believe that. This led to the discussion about the Catalyst's ability (or rather the Crucible's ability) to accurately translate an organic mind to a synthetic one.
I've already said several times that I don't think the Shepalyst is exactly Shepard. Shepard the human is dead.
The only thing I have asserted here thus far is that the Shepalyst is not Shepard, and there is every reason to believe that it won't act like Shepard. I do not believe the Crucible/Catalyst can accurately recreate Shepard. There is absolutely nothing in Mass Effect lore that suggests a synthetic can accurately mimic an organic. In fact, synthetics can't even perfectly mimic other synthetics.
Even if it was an accuracte re-creation, the obvious changes -- immortality, no human body, and so forth -- would necessitate that the new being would be somewhat different, wouldn't they?
(Assuming that identity is anything more than a convenient fiction in the first place, of course)
cool. Me too.I prefer to go to the actual game universe rather than invade someone else's. I like consistent rules.
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absolutely. But to say that they're nothing more than a mere archive of his thoughts is false.Even if it was an accuracte re-creation, the obvious changes -- immortality, no human body, and so forth -- would necessitate that the new being would be somewhat different, wouldn't they?
cool. Me too.
What exactly do you think the Catalyst means when it says: 'you' will control us.
Did you think it was talking about the guy behind you? Or was it talking about the 'you' who isn't even you? Hmm...
He was referring to the Shepalyst, and the Catalyst doesn't understand organics or organic identity.
You know, being the guiding intelligence of all the Reapers, which are themselves some sort of bizarre uploading of millions of beings.
At least, that's the impression I got. A lot of what the Catalyst says is pretty nonsensical.
Even if it was an accuracte re-creation, the obvious changes -- immortality, no human body, and so forth -- would necessitate that the new being would be somewhat different, wouldn't they?
(Assuming that identity is anything more than a convenient fiction in the first place, of course)
By becoming an AI wouldn't Sheplyst lose his understanding of Organics (or whatever) that apparently is the cause of a lot of this tension between Organics and Synthetics? It does seem to be tied down to DNA or something physical which Sheplyst would lose when Shepard is destroyed.
By becoming an AI wouldn't Sheplyst lose his understanding of Organics (or whatever) that apparently is the cause of a lot of this tension between Organics and Synthetics? It does seem to be tied down to DNA or something physical which Sheplyst would lose when Shepard is destroyed.
The tension between Organics and Synthetics isn't DNA or anything like that. It's the rate of advancement. Synthetics are capable of complete self-modification. They have an innate understanding of Mathematics. In combination, they can self-improve at a much faster rate than any Organic. Which means, eventually, they'll overtake us and stay ahead. Eternally.
And once we're past that point, any Organic war with Synthetics would result in Synthetic victory.
Of course, the problem is solved if the super-advanced Synthetic is unwilling to go to war with Organics, and is willing to let them develop at their own pace. Like, say, I don't know... a Paragon Shepard-AI?
The tension between Organics and Synthetics isn't DNA or anything like that. It's the rate of advancement. Synthetics are capable of complete self-modification. They have an innate understanding of Mathematics. In combination, they can self-improve at a much faster rate than any Organic. Which means, eventually, they'll overtake us and stay ahead. Eternally.
And once we're past that point, any Organic war with Synthetics would result in Synthetic victory.
Of course, the problem is solved if the super-advanced Synthetic is unwilling to go to war with Organics, and is willing to let them develop at their own pace. Like, say, I don't know... a Paragon Shepard-AI?
I get that that is the generic reason for AI beating up organics in sci-fi, but the whole spiel for why Synthesis leads to peace is where I'm getting the DNA thing from. I know it's not absolute, as nothing about Synthesis is really grounded in common sense, but it seems like the only reason Synthesis is a solution to the problem is because it some how fixes Synthetics (who only get the DNA change).
I don't hold to that. We're more than our thoughts. Legion even described it in ME2, how synthetics are purely software while organics are both hardware and software.
I agree with this... but see it as a plus for Control rather than a negative.
Remove the body, and you remove a lot of individual (read: selfish) wants and needs from the equation, making the resulting "entity" far less corruptible than he otherwise would be. I'm not saying it's fool-proof, mind you, just preferable to an organic in the same position. A giver, not a taker.
To that end, we all know the biggest fear with Control is the new Catalyst taking after its predecessor, but... how helpless is the galaxy against this threat, really? They already conquered it once, by virtue of the Crucible and the Control outcome, and it's not like the galaxy will be cut off from each other for long in this ending because the Citadel is intact and relays get rebuilt by guess-who. Whatever point in time the new Catalyst turns hostile, the galaxy will be that much more/better equipped to fight it than they were last time. It may even lead to building a Crucible they actually understand and has a much more user-friendly interface.
And if this is a Shepard that chooses Control expressly to avoid killing AI ... at his own expense, no less... why should an AI imprinted with this same personality value its self-preservation so highly as to threaten the whole galaxy? Sounds to me like if the galaxy rebels, this AI would just bend over and take it.
Differences may exist, but I'd find it baffling as to why you'd want to roleplay your Shepard as turning on the galaxy afterward, and utterly insulting to claim that it'll happen in other peoples' playthroughs.
It is inevitable. If you think about it, technology of the galaxy will continue to improve and eventually it will surpass that of the reapers. Shepalyst becomes obsolete, and is no longer in control. How does Shepard maintain control and watch over the many? To prevent being surpassed and regulating AIs Shepalyst must use indoctrination to prevent technological advancement beyond that of the reapers. If Shepalyst fails to do that, then chaos results and Shepalyst can no longer protect the many. Do you not see? Either a constant indoctrination of the galaxy must be made, or another harvest is inevitable.
Otherwise, the galaxy will surpass Shepalyst and his/her reapers, and suppose they create the synthetic that wipes out all organic life? You see, at some point you're going to have to oppress either by force or by brainwashing.
I don't hold to that. We're more than our thoughts. Legion even described it in ME2, how synthetics are purely software while organics are both hardware and software.
That's why Shepard's hardware as well as software was cut and compressed, otherwise bodily disintegration wouldn't have been necessary.
The only thing I have asserted here thus far is that the Shepalyst is not Shepard, and there is every reason to believe that it won't act like Shepard. I do not believe the Crucible/Catalyst can accurately recreate Shepard. There is absolutely nothing in Mass Effect lore that suggests a synthetic can accurately mimic an organic. In fact, synthetics can't even perfectly mimic other synthetics.
There was nothing in ME lore that suggested before that a synthetic could spray green gunk all over the galaxy that magically transformed all life into something new, but, well.
It is inevitable. If you think about it, technology of the galaxy will continue to improve and eventually it will surpass that of the reapers. Shepalyst becomes obsolete, and is no longer in control. How does Shepard maintain control and watch over the many? To prevent being surpassed and regulating AIs Shepalyst must use indoctrination to prevent technological advancement beyond that of the reapers. If Shepalyst fails to do that, then chaos results and Shepalyst can no longer protect the many. Do you not see? Either a constant indoctrination of the galaxy must be made, or another harvest is inevitable.
Otherwise, the galaxy will surpass Shepalyst and his/her reapers, and suppose they create the synthetic that wipes out all organic life? You see, at some point you're going to have to oppress either by force or by brainwashing.
That implies that the Reapers won't also be upgraded, that purely synthetic Reapers can't be built operating under new technology that'll be able to keep up and just be ahead of the curve, etc.
But I'm really not all that concerned about a synthetic apocalypse anyway. I figure this period of guardianship is transitional, while the galaxy is still recovering from the war, and perhaps to a point where the weak no longer need protection from the strong (if ethics and such advance along with technology); either way, staying forever isn't necessary.
Otherwise, the galaxy will surpass Shepalyst and his/her reapers, and suppose they create the synthetic that wipes out all organic life? You see, at some point you're going to have to oppress either by force or by brainwashing.
I get that that is the generic reason for AI beating up organics in sci-fi, but the whole spiel for why Synthesis leads to peace is where I'm getting the DNA thing from. I know it's not absolute, as nothing about Synthesis is really grounded in common sense, but it seems like the only reason Synthesis is a solution to the problem is because it some how fixes Synthetics (who only get the DNA change).
It also upgrades organics' body such that they could compete in an arms race with synthetics.
so, you use statements it makes to try and support your perspective, but when it doesn't support it you say "a lot of what the Catalyst says is nonsensical" ? Right...He was referring to the Shepalyst, and the Catalyst doesn't understand organics or organic identity.
You know, being the guiding intelligence of all the Reapers, which are themselves some sort of bizarre uploading of millions of beings.
At least, that's the impression I got. A lot of what the Catalyst says is pretty nonsensical.
I wonder if there is a correlation between religious beliefs and ending choice.
I've seen a couple polls.
The non-religious outnumbered the religious (well whatever, that happens in the nerd demographics).
The non-religious more clearly picked Destroy, but still had some in Control, and almost none in Synthesis.
The religious less clearly picked Destroy, but it was still a very high number (Destroy in itself had a high majority). They had more in Control and Synth than the non-religious, but for Control it was still closer to even, while for Synthesis it was an actually noticeable number compared to the non-religious.
Basically, they were more spread out than the non-religious, even though they still had a distinct majority for Destroy.
Almost no one picked Refuse. (To me it appears that Refuse exists just as a protest choice and not one that most people ultimately went with, even if many were petitioning for the chance to defy the Catalyst and even shot it)
Obviously this is a super broad summary and not to be used as evidence in anything.
For the record, I am an agnostic atheist with acceptance for spirituality.
It's OK to say that the Sheplyst is something of a crapshoot, though, since in advance we don't know the accuracy of the process. But Destroy is also a crapshoot, since for all we know the Catalyst could have been completely right about everything. I suppose someone can come up with a bad hypothetical for Synthesis too.
Citadel DLC covers this.
Destroy, Silver Coast Casino - Gamble, all or nothing but may get highest actual payout
Control, Castle Arcade - Gaming for high score but get a prize of some sort either way, either of physical or virtual nature
Synthesis, Tiberius Apartments - Always a star in your ecosystem and existing with your loved ones, but little actual prize except the feels
(Armax Arena is Yellow, the color of the overall struggle and conflict that all the characters, Red/Blue/Green/etc are going through anyway)
Anyway, what I'm saying is that all the ending choices are a crapshoot/gamble in their own ways. It's just that while Destroy is one of the more definite nature (a literal gamble for the player who doesn't account for EMS and just stays immersed into the story), Control is of the more ambiguous nature (a virtual gamble for the player that will just have to hope everything will turn out alright for this cycle). Synthesis is more of an outright leap of faith that the decision made will work out well for the whole galaxy - let alone the factions/persons close to Shepard or Shepard himself.
It also upgrades organics' body such that they could compete in an arms race with synthetics.
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