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CQC Adept Run


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#26
a_mouse

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Reave increases your max health … Energy Drain similarly will give a bonus to max shields when you use it.
Since this is ME2 we are talking about, you will regen all of your health, so using it as an available pool to take damage isn't out of the question.  This of course applies the most to the Soldier w/ Hardened AR, but is generalizable to any class.


Interesting - I did NOT know that.  Do you have any numbers on the magnitude of these health and shield boosts, and how long they last?  For example, can you reave an enemy, and then run around with buffed health for some time period after they are dead?
 
Based on your suggestion (and aided by RedCaesar's comments on this thread), I took a look at some vids featuring reave being used for CQC.  Two examples stood out:

 

ScroguBlitzen - Baria Frontiers
Strive - Collector Ship

 
What these guys do is hold back on eliminating enemies during CQC, instead stripping off their protection with shotgun, and finishing them with reave.  Thus reave is used both to immobilize debuffed enemies as well as maintain health while maneuvering in the open.  This ends up being very synergistic, using cool downs quite efficiently to do damage, immobilize, and maintain mobility.  However, these guys maneuver out in the open a lot more than I tend to do, and consequently are in the red A LOT.  With this style, taking reave actually makes a lot of sense because you can benefit much more from the health restoration.  If you are always trying to stay above the shield gate (as I do), you aren't going to benefit nearly as much (perhaps only in emergency situations, such as at 4:35 in my first vid on this thread).  For this reason I much prefer a power that restores shields/barrier than one that restores health.



#27
Fortack

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I recall you can check your health and shield values in the character screen at any time. It might be a bit impractical to hit Esc in the middle of a fight though  ;) 

 

I know the amount of Shep's shield restored depends on how much enemy shields are drained with Energy Drain. Hitting a group of fully shielded enemies (with the AoE version) restores more of your shield than hitting a single target (with only a little of its shield left). Dunno if and how this affects the max shields bonus (same for Reave).

 

The problem with shield powers is that they are basically vastly inferior versions of Tech Armor. Their long cooldown doesn't justify the additional damage your shields can take, on Insanity. They are nice "oh crap" powers - esp Barrier which, unlike the other shield powers, doesn't have a casting animation - but not much else. In my experience, the only times I had to use shield powers during combat was when I messed things up. Anyway, my point is that when your playstyle requires a lot of shield power usage, you're better off playing a Sentinel; and when you only have to use those powers once, or a couple times, during a mission, other bonus powers are likely a more valuable investment.

 

ME2 also has a good checkpoint system, dying a couple times isn't so bad IMO. I always liked killing the enemy with style, no matter the cost. :D


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#28
capn233

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This is stuff from a long time ago, but actually I think Athenau showed that EDrain's bonus to shields actually depended on base EDrain damage multiplied by the number of enemies you hit.  That is to say that it didn't matter if you drain a Geth with only 5HP of health, you get the bonus of whatever the EDrain damage number was.  IIRC he recommended Heavy Drain due to this (since it usually increased the shield number the most), and for some reason 350 is sticking in my mind, but I would need to comb through the old threads in order to get the real number.

 

As for Reave, I agree, the way people use it when running and gunning out of cover is to mainly use your health pool, which is annoying to some people with the red blood vessel animation, but it does work to play it that way.

 

For a pure speed through a mission, I don't know what will end up being the best, since if you were to talk specifically about the DCC platforms then Stasis probably saves more time, just for glitching the Scions, so in that respect Reave might not beat it.  But in missions that are predominantly mooks without the sub bosses, then you do get a lot of mileage out of CCing the mooks and getting your health and regen bonuses.  Object Rho for instance goes pretty well with Reave spam, since there is really only one target (one YMIR) that would be worth using Stasis on.

As an aside, the nice thing about Shepard's Area Reave is that you can get enough bonuses that it can group strip armor from Husks at Level 30 on Insanity, which Samara's cannot do.  Really the only other power that works well for this is Incinerate, but it isn't available to all Shepards.



#29
a_mouse

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The problem with shield powers is that they are basically vastly inferior versions of Tech Armor. Their long cooldown doesn't justify the additional damage your shields can take, on Insanity. They are nice "oh crap" powers - esp Barrier which, unlike the other shield powers, doesn't have a casting animation - but not much else. In my experience, the only times I had to use shield powers during combat was when I messed things up. Anyway, my point is that when your playstyle requires a lot of shield power usage, you're better off playing a Sentinel; and when you only have to use those powers once, or a couple times, during a mission, other bonus powers are likely a more valuable investment.

Has your opinion on Barrier evolved since 4 years ago on this thread?  Or are you just saying that if you are going to use a shield power, be a Sentinel?
 
Anyway, the way I look at these various choices is as follows.  When it comes to CQC, non-soldier hybrid classes do not have an explicit mobility power (AR, cloak, charge), so they must achieve mobility in other ways.  These ways follow roughly two basic strategies:  1) enhanced protection or leaching power to absorb fire while maneuvering, or 2) controlling protected enemies while maneuvering.  And then there is everything in between.  
 
At one end of this spectrum, for example, would be a Sentinel with ED/Reave (respeced according to mission).  At the other an Engineer or Adept with Stasis.  In the middle is a Stasis Sentinel, which brings together the best protection power with one of the best control powers in the game, and allows a more mixed and adaptable approach to CQC than the two endpoints of this spectrum.
 
So I guess what I'm really trying to explore and understand here are other builds that fall in this middle zone.  Hence the Adept with Barrier.  But based on both yours and cap233's comments about the shield/health boost ED/reave (which I did not realize), I am curious try these out on an Adept and Engineer, and see what happens!



#30
Fortack

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My opinion hasn't changed I suppose. I do like to point out that the introduction of Stasis changed my point of view about Adept bonus powers. Pre-Stasis, it was perhaps my favorite one - mostly cuz for the sake of role-playing I liked to pick a biotic bonus power for my Adept (Reave has too much in common with Warp, Slam with Pull / Throw, and Warp Ammo technically isn't a biotic power and ammo powers in general add little damage anyway). Barrier not only suits the Adept and has a nice looking visual effect, but it adds something the other bonus powers did not > survivability.

 

Stasis changed everything for me, and it should have been a power of the Adept from the start (not a bonus power). Stasis gives its user instant CC, something the Adept doesn't have by default (all powers arc towards their targets, which takes some time during which Shep is vulnerable to counter-fire). Stasis also works against enemies who are immune to Singularity. Just like Barrier added something new and useful, so did Stasis. Difference is that Stasis suited my view on how to play the Adept - as a controller, not a tank - hence why I prefer it over Barrier.

 

The real issue I have with shield powers is that the strength of Shep's shield has hardly any impact on survivability (a shame IMHO). Shield-gate is what matters in ME2, and it's the reason why an Assault Sentinel is almost unkillable, why Charge works, and why Energy Drain is godlike on Geth missions (Reave is good too if you can stand the visual effect).

 

When you use, say, Heavy Barrier, when you're out in the open and taking fire, it will give you less than one second before your shields break again plus a shield-gate. All in all that's between 1 and 2 seconds of added survivability - not much considering the 7-12 second cooldown. Furthermore, I cannot remember a section in ME2 were my Adept needed a shield power (or that having one would have been a big advantage). When everything went nice and smooth, my Adept hardly had to worry about getting hit at all which makes having a shield power sorta obsolete.

 

Don't get the wrong idea, though. I still believe Barrier to be an excellent choice as an Adept bonus power and it is useful without doubt. However, when I watch you play ME2 I don't think you really need an emergency button. Stasis, Reave, or Energy Drain (if you don't mind using a tech power on the biotic specialist) are definitely better suited for someone with your level of skill. 



#31
a_mouse

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Don't get the wrong idea, though. I still believe Barrier to be an excellent choice as an Adept bonus power and it is useful without doubt. However, when I watch you play ME2 I don't think you really need an emergency button. Stasis, Reave, or Energy Drain (if you don't mind using a tech power on the biotic specialist) are definitely better suited for someone with your level of skill. 

Ha!  Perhaps I should have saved more footage of epic fails to illustrate the benefits of barrier!  It's role is definitely more subtle - not always obvious in the vid when it is doing something or even being used.  But here is a comparison vid showing what I am taking about.  The first example is more of a pure control approach.  The second is a blend of protection and control.  If I attempt the double tackle (shown at the beginning of the second example) without Barrier, I dip into health every time, and die more than half the time.  So it's not *just* an emergency button.  It definitely allows me to do certain things that I would otherwise not be able to do.  So does Stasis, but its a different set of things.  



#32
a_mouse

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Well, it looks like I have to eat (at least some) of my words.  Based on the discussion above, I tried Reave as a protection power on an Adept for CQC.  And, I admit, it’s actually pretty good.  Also, with Reave instead of Warp, it leaves points to level-up Throw, which is always fun (as demonstrated below...).  Enjoy.
 

(video revised May 2014 so as not to crop telemetry at top and bottom of 16x10 aspect screen)
 
Comments:
 
First, I did some testing just to verify the magnitude and duration of the health boost.  Sure enough, with Heavy Reave (and Bastion passive), if you hit anything with a red health bar, max health more than doubles (from 340 to 720 according to the stat screen).  And this boost lasts a very long time after the power duration ends (or the enemy dies) - I estimate about 30 seconds (based on how long it takes the 720 to drop back down to 340 on the stat screen). 
 
As I understand it, Shep’s red health bar represent % of max health (rather than absolute level), so this health boost effectively reduces incoming damage (below the shield gate) by about 50%.  Furthermore, during the power duration (about 5 seconds), there is a leaching effect that continuously refills % health at some prescribed rate.  In many situations this counterbalances incoming damage, causing health to fluctuate up and down at about the 40-50% level when under heavy fire.  Except for heavy weapons, Shep is basically immune during this time period.  This affords as much (or more) mobility that a heavy shield power, but with a shorter cool down and a simultaneous benefit of damaging and/or immobilizing the leaching target. 
 
For an Adept, this has an added benefit of allowing Shep to use Reave in place of Warp for dealing direct damage to armor or barriers. This means that instead of leveling up both Warp *and* Barrier by mid-game, Warp can be left at level 2, and the rest of the points put into Throw.  This adds significantly to Sheps midrange options, while still allowing very aggressive CQ that would otherwise be impossible without protection.
 
The downsides of this approach are 1) you don’t have the health boost in advance (you first need to strip and leach a target), and 2) during CQC you end up working in the middle of your health pool rather than above the shield gate (much like a Soldier sometimes does).  This means you don’t get the advantage of the shield gate, and must also put up with the annoying blood vessel animation and Shep’s grunting.
 
However, what I found in practice is that it is not too difficult (with the relatively short cool down) to insert a leaching step into a multi-enemy takedown.  Also, if you are constantly using Reave for immobilizing targets as well as for protection, it will constantly be refilling your health, so the net amount of time you spend in the red is much less than you might imagine.
 
Anyway, take a look at the vid, and judge for yourself.  Credits to capn233 and MrB/Fortack for the inspiration.
 
Here’s the build (level 20):
 
3: Warp
6: Throw
10: Singularity
1: Pull
10: Bastion
10: Heavy Reave
1: unassigned
 
Locust SMG and Evi Shotgun.  Jacob and Miranda as squaddies.



#33
a_mouse

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Now that I have more experience with both Adept and the Collector Ship, I decided re-run the Barrier Adept through the DCS mission level.  Here's the revised vid, which I think does better justice to Barrier as a bonus power (and has visible heads-up display so you can see the cool down use).  Sorry, I was too lazy to also revise the music…

 

 

I rearranged the missions before this one so as to get to level 21, unlocking Throw (which I think is beneficial for any Adept build).  Otherwise the build is the same as the OP.  Unlike the last vid, here I do a better job staying entirely above the shield gate, working mostly from the 2x Barrier pool (occasionally extended to 4x by recasting Barrier under fire).  The emergency shield upgrade also kicked in a couple of times, restoring the Barrier without recasting.

 

If you pay close attention to the cool down display, you'll see when I am recasting the barrier so as to avoid conflicts with other powers.  The basic idea is to 1) use calm interludes to precast the barrier so its cool down is complete before needing other powers, 2) avoid recasting the barrier in cover or other situations where it is not really needed, and 3) insure squad mates with disabling powers are fully cooled down before you recast so that their powers are available when Shep is on cool down.  With this approach, cool down conflicts between protection and control are fairly minimal (not significantly worse than with Reave/ED in my opinion).

 

Anyway, there's a few funny Collector tosses in the platform sequence - enjoy.  

 

(4 classes down - 2 to go.)