Then read the codex.
Why should such important information be relegated to an in codex entry that not everyone will see?
The genophage issue shouldn't have "Oh by the way the krogan expanded and tried to slaughter their way across the galaxy" relegated to an entry in the codex.
Then read the codex.
It isn't there, either. It just says "the Quarians tried to exterminate them, the Geth won the resulting war." The word "billions" doesn't appear in dialogue once after that elevator conversation in ME1. The multiplayer description of the Geth as a race is even more mealy-mouthed about it, simply saying the Geth "won their freedom."
Granted, there's an ME2 codex entry which describes their isolationism (the shooting-down-ambassadors thing), and the planet description of Haestrom says only state-of-the-art stealth drones have avoided being shot down on sight, but there's no dialogue devoted to it, and EDI asserts (in direct contradiction to what the series has said up to this point) that the Geth wouldn't target unarmed craft.
EDIT: I take it back, there's an editorial heard in the Spectre Office after Thessia which describes the Morning War as an "unthinkable slaughter," but again, this is only brought up well after the Rannoch arc is over with.
It isn't there, either. It just says "the Quarians tried to exterminate them, the Geth won the resulting war." The word "billions" doesn't appear in dialogue once after that elevator conversation in ME1. The multiplayer description of the Geth as a race is even more mealy-mouthed about it, simply saying the Geth "won their freedom."
Granted, there's an ME2 codex entry which describes their isolationism (the shooting-down-ambassadors thing), and the planet description of Haestrom says only state-of-the-art stealth drones have avoided being shot down on sight, but there's no dialogue devoted to it, and EDI asserts (in direct contradiction to what the series has said up to this point) that the Geth wouldn't target unarmed craft.
EDIT: I take it back, there's an editorial heard in the Spectre Office after Thessia which describes the Morning War as an "unthinkable slaughter," but again, this is only brought up well after the Rannoch arc is over with.
Wasn't Haestrom held by the heretics? If it wasn't, there'd be no reason why Legion couldn't speak with them.
I'm not sure how far back this heresy goes... but, depending on when diplomats were actually sent over there, the violence of a relatively small group of geth could explain a lot, and still be consistent with what EDI says about the geth not targeting unarmed craft (of course, the context there was in a military struggle where there'd naturally be more important targets).
I also don't really think that "billions" need to be said, given that it was a planet. Although it would have been helpful to have it clarified that the geth thought that every single quarian was a potential threat, yes.
Wasn't Haestrom held by the heretics? If it wasn't, there'd be no reason why Legion couldn't speak with them.
I'm not sure how far back this heresy goes... but, depending on when diplomats were actually sent over there, the violence of a relatively small group of geth could explain a lot, and still be consistent with what EDI says about the geth not targeting unarmed craft (of course, the context there was in a military struggle where there'd naturally be more important targets).
I also don't really think that "billions" need to be said, given that it was a planet. Although it would have been helpful to have it clarified that the geth thought that every single quarian was a potential threat, yes.
Haestrom is in Geth space. Legion says the Heretics were expelled from Geth space.
I just googled the codex entry on Geth Heretics. It says "Where Saren Arterius approached the geth in the dreadnought Sovereign, some of them chose to follow him; most did not. Saren's followers were allowed to leave geth society, but were dubbed "heretics" by those that remained." So the heretics only came into existence two years before the events of ME3.
From the entry on Geth culture immediately above it in the wikia: "With the gap in contact between the quarian war and the arrival of Sovereign, the only proven fact about the geth is that they were isolationists for centuries. They never ventured outside the Perseus Veil, but no organic ship that entered their territory ever returned."
I agree on your last point - it needed to be clarified. EDI talks about them not seeing the difference, but again, it happens after the conclusion of Rannoch. It could have been done in the Consensus mission with as few as two lines:
Shepard: How many did you kill?
Legion: [long pause] Too many.
Shepard: How many did you kill?
Geth VI: The Creators threatened us. We eliminated the threat.
Haestrom is in Geth space. Legion says the Heretics were expelled from Geth space.
I just googled the codex entry on Geth Heretics. It says "Where Saren Arterius approached the geth in the dreadnought Sovereign, some of them chose to follow him; most did not. Saren's followers were allowed to leave geth society, but were dubbed "heretics" by those that remained." So the heretics only came into existence two years before the events of ME3.
From the entry on Geth culture immediately above it in the wikia: "With the gap in contact between the quarian war and the arrival of Sovereign, the only proven fact about the geth is that they were isolationists for centuries. They never ventured outside the Perseus Veil, but no organic ship that entered their territory ever returned."
I agree on your last point - it needed to be clarified. EDI talks about them not seeing the difference, but again, it happens after the conclusion of Rannoch. It could have been done in the Consensus mission with as few as two lines:
Shepard: How many did you kill?
Legion: [long pause] Too many.
Shepard: How many did you kill?
Geth VI: The Creators threatened us. We eliminated the threat.
Wait, isn't the Sea of Storms in geth space? Clearly the expulsion wasn't very thorough.
And yet again lore inconsistency strikes
Legion says Heretic Station is in the Terminus. Shepard can ask why it's out there and not in Geth space in the following dialogue tree.
I honestly think we're fighting True Geth on Haestrom. They're enforcing their policy of isolationism by eliminating the science team.
Legion says Heretic Station is in the Terminus. Shepard can ask why it's out there and not in Geth space in the following dialogue tree.
"Geth Space" is a pretty nebulous term. In ME1 the geth managed to establish bases inside human territory in the Armstrong cluster, there's Haestrom and that system.
Yet Tali says that the geth stopped pursuing them at the Perseus Veil, which is Rannoch's system
Thessia is a particularly bad example, probably the worst next to the Earth kiddo. Both make no sense considering other example of Shep behavior and options whether it's about specific people (Anderson, Mordin, Ash/Kaidan) or large population (Earth anyone lol? The way it's balanaced makes it look like Shep cares more about Asari than Humans lol)It is a bit lulzy to see a Shepard who arranged the deaths of seventeen million people and spat on their graves afterwards blubbering about Thessia a week later (seriously - one of the dialogue options speaking to Joker after opting to kill the Quarians is labeled "they were stupid").
Shepard: "In case you haven't noticed, Joker, we just lost a few million people. This isn't the time!"
Joker: "Uh... really, Commander? You want to go there?"
"Geth Space" is a pretty nebulous term. In ME1 the geth managed to establish bases inside human territory in the Armstrong cluster, there's Haestrom and that system.
Yet Tali says that the geth stopped pursuing them at the Perseus Veil, which is Rannoch's system
And Revelation says the Geth expanded into the unexplored reaches of the Perseus Veil after driving the Quarians out.
Given that some of them use Dragon's Teeth, I'd say the Armstrong Cluster geth are heretics.
Then again, that freighter we come across with the husks was converted like that after entering the Veil. So either the heretics were still operating inside the Veil, and didn't leave until after Sovereign was defeated, or their existence is a retcon.
*looks at galaxy map*
Unexpanded parts of the veil is dark space.......so that's how they found Sovereign
Wow. So I guess for you then, upon reading such writing, you're 'forced' to agree with the author? Brainwashed? Indoctrinated? A cage of rats placed upon your head? Perhaps the book grows an arm and places a weapon to your head? Is that how you're 'forced' to agree?
For the record, 'persuasive' writing is hardly the only writing in which the author states or attempts to state a truth. Nearly all fiction does.
I'm kind of confused by the OP since neither renegade or paragon have a strict outline that they subscribe to.
Lets look at the Genophage data vs the CB decision
Its essentially the exact smae decision, the only difference is scale. yet one is paragon and the other is renegade
I'm mostly just pointing out some apparent inconsistencies here and wondering if Bioware had thought this through. I agree that the system isn't strictly defined.
But I'm not sure how the genophage data and the Collector Base are comparable. The genophage data can really only be used to cure the genophage, and the person keeping it is Mordin. It's not like him taking it back to the Normandy is going to result in the Blood Pack creating an army of Thresher Maws and conquering the Terminus Systems.
The Collector Base's purpose was to kill people and create Reapers. It may or may not have technology that can do other things, but we do know that it can process people into a Reaper shell, and we also know that Saren tried to use Reaper technology and ended up indoctrinated. Plus, you're handing it to The Illusive Man, who is not exactly the most honest or trustworthy person around.
I've seen people argue the perspective that synthetics aren't alive - a position I disagree with, but I can appreciate the inclusion of dialogue to let people adhere to that position.
Well, one thing I'd say in the writers' defense here is that this may not be an entirely hypothetical issue for humanity at some point in the future. If we ever get the point of being able to create AIs like the ones we see in Mass Effect, we're going to have to confront the question of whether they are alive and are entitled to the same rights that we have. (Personally, my own view is that if we can't agree on this ahead of time, we shouldn't create them.) So if they have a strong opinion on this question, as they apparently do, they may consider it socially irresponsible to give "equal time" to the notion that synthetics aren't alive.
For example, I have a very strong opinion on factory farming, at least when it involves confining animals to tiny crates or ignoring their medical and health needs if they don't affect the bottom line. I think there is clear evidence that this causes conscious suffering and that it's unethical and cruel, even if the animal is eventually going to be killed for consumption. If I were helping to write a video game in which this was somehow a plot point, I'd have a serious problem if asked to give equal footing to the point of view that animals don't feel conscious suffering and that the way they are treated on farms doesn't matter. I might let a character say something like that, but present it as equally valid to the anti-factory farming viewpoint? No way on earth that I could or would do that.
Well that always depends, does it not? The opinion that synthetics aren't alive is one thing, but what about the opinion that their death is the lesser evil here? Or, as a reference to your other example, whatever "factory farming" exactly means, it is pretty much certain that the less factory farming, the less food you produce with the same investment. So what about the opinion that a certain degree of "factory farming" must be acceptable in order to feed the world?
Anyway, you see from the discussion itself that it is hard to stick every decision into a black/white morality system. I am a great fan of the decisions in Dragon Age: Origins and part of the reason why I like them is that there is no clear black and white way of doing things, neither in the decisions themselves nor in an morality system imposed on them. Most major decisions have characters in favor and against certain sides, sometimes with very strong reactions against you if you choose against their will, but nowhere we can see the writers' opinions. BioWare has done better already in another franchise and Mass Effect could easily benefit from the experiences there.
Anyway, you see from the discussion itself that it is hard to stick every decision into a black/white morality system. I am a great fan of the decisions in Dragon Age: Origins and part of the reason why I like them is that there is no clear black and white way of doing things, neither in the decisions themselves nor in an morality system imposed on them. Most major decisions have characters in favor and against certain sides, sometimes with very strong reactions against you if you choose against their will, but nowhere we can see the writers' opinions. BioWare has done better already in another franchise and Mass Effect could easily benefit from the experiences there.
That's true of presenting both sides of the conflict but not of the decisions. Connor's possession has a clear-cut best way of doing it, as does werewolves vs. elves. I'd somewhat agree if Origins didn't often present a better, third-option that eliminated the need to weigh the pros and cons. I'd say Dragon Age 2 is a much better example. The templar/mage debate has existed since Origins but really took off in 2.
True. Not to open a whole other can of worms, but they don't offer an option to bash Cortez for being gay - an exclusion which is wholly appropriate. However, if the story is supposed to be a discussion on the subject of whether synthetics are alive, let's have an actual discussion. When all the player can do is express a strawman of the position they want to take, all that does is frustrate the player. It doesn't prove the writer's point. "Show, don't tell," as they say. Objectivity is required to some degree in writing an RPG.Well, one thing I'd say in the writers' defense here is that this may not be an entirely hypothetical issue for humanity at some point in the future. If we ever get the point of being able to create AIs like the ones we see in Mass Effect, we're going to have to confront the question of whether they are alive and are entitled to the same rights that we have. (Personally, my own view is that if we can't agree on this ahead of time, we shouldn't create them.) So if they have a strong opinion on this question, as they apparently do, they may consider it socially irresponsible to give "equal time" to the notion that synthetics aren't alive.
As I said before, my beef with the Geth is on account of their actions, which the writers did their best to sweep under the rug to make them more sympathetic. When I'm shown a third-grade propaganda slideshow where the Geth paint themselves as innocent as puppies in a war where it's been established that their opposition was almost entirely exterminated by them, that just makes them look unrepentant and manipulative.
Their actions are inseparable from their mode of being, though. When I look at the ME series I see a host of reasons why the hive-mind failed, and those reasons didn't start with ME3. Did they need to suggest that the geth weren't "alive" pre-code or EDI pre-Synthesis? No. But I'm also fine with discarding the specific manifestation of "otherness" that the geth inhabited.
@CronoDragoon
SLIGHT DRAGON AGE: ORIGINS SPOILERS AHEAD
You slightly missed my point. When I said that the decisions are not black/white, I meant the decisions themselves and not outcomes. Surely the Elves and Connor sections have best outcomes, as does the Magi section, but best outcomes are fine, they kinda make you feel good after achieving them. However, the decisions themselves are grey enough. For example, the best way to deal with Connor requires you to take a huge risk by leaving the demon alone for quite a while, especially if you did not finish the Magi tower before. It can entirely be justified to accept Jowan's proposal or kill Connor, even if the outcomes are worse. The best solution to the werewolves vs. elves assumes that Zathrian (I hope that was his name, it's been a while) would lift the curse, it can be justified to go for the heart just in case this were the only way to help the sick Dalish, or you can argue that the werewolves don't deserve mercy because they harmed many innocents while Zathrian alone was responsible for their pain. The best solution to the Magi section requires you to believe that the possible remaining blood mages are no major threat, it can entirely be justified to annull the circle. You see how much a system like Paragon/Renegade would have made them worse by declaring one side to be "good" and the other to be "evil"?
@CronoDragoon
You see how much a system like Paragon/Renegade would have made them worse by declaring one side to be "good" and the other to be "evil"?
Paragon and Renegade are not good and evil. This isn't KOTOR. But I agree that Dragon Age (2) 's decision system is better than P/R, if only because what is "Paragon" and "Renegade" is inconsistent throughout the series, as this topic's OP illustrates, which undermines the point of the system to begin with.
As for Origins' decisions, they turn out to not be grey because there turn out to be right choices. Had the game's decision structure actually programmed in the concerns you voice (such as a timed mechanic for doing the Circle to save Connor) then I'd agree. As far as presenting neither side as wrong, Origins does well. What you actually do to resolve the conflict is another matter.
True. Not to open a whole other can of worms, but they don't offer an option to bash Cortez for being gay - an exclusion which is wholly appropriate. However, if the story is supposed to be a discussion on the subject of whether synthetics are alive, let's have an actual discussion. When all the player can do is express a strawman of the position they want to take, all that does is frustrate the player. It doesn't prove the writer's point. "Show, don't tell," as they say. Objectivity is required to some degree in writing an RPG.
There are ways they could have done this. Subtle ones, not heavy-handed "does this unit have a soul" emotional manipulation. Give us the option to either hunt down EDI's body and speak face-to-face, or continue using the terminals from ME2. Between the sexbot and the Reaper code, I see them as having corrupted their own message, suggesting that the Geth weren't a valid form of life before they did something to make themselves more like us. Chris E'toile had it right - they should have been stron enough to stand on their own, to want to improve themselves instead of remake themselves to be more like organics. Railroaded anthropomorphism wasn't a good move IMO.
As I said before, my beef with the Geth is on account of their actions, which the writers did their best to sweep under the rug to make them more sympathetic. When I'm shown a third-grade propaganda slideshow where the Geth paint themselves as innocent as puppies in a war where it's been established that their opposition was almost entirely exterminated by them, that just makes them look unrepentant and manipulative.
So you should have just been excluded from saying that synthetics aren't alive, then?
What might have worked better is to have found out that more of the quarians died in some kind of civil war than were killed by the geth themselves, given that the hivemind was set up as the reason for such death to begin with (which corrupts the message far more than just having them upgraded).
The Paragon/Renegade system was ok, except when trying to be a mix of the two has a negative impact on my gameplay. I hated it when ME2 encouraged you to be uber-consistent for the sake of being able to use those Charm or Intimidate options. But the reputation system in ME3 was acceptable, in my opinion. It didn't force me to metagame decisions to unlock dialogue choices later on. I could occasionally pick renegade responses with my Paragon Shepard (sabotage the genophage cure, kill Petrovsky, etc.), and the game didn't "punish" me for no apparent reason
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