123 réponses à ce sujet

[von uber]

I could occasionally pick renegade responses with my Paragon Shepard (sabotage the genophage cure, kill Petrovsky, etc.), and the game didn't "punish" me for no apparent reason

Yes, by far the biggest improvement in me3.

[DeinonSlayer]

Their actions are inseparable from their mode of being, though. When I look at the ME series I see a host of reasons why the hive-mind failed, and those reasons didn't start with ME3. Did they need to suggest that the geth weren't "alive" pre-code or EDI pre-Synthesis? No. But I'm also fine with discarding the specific manifestation of "otherness" that the geth inhabited.

I had a greater appreciation for what they were pre-Reaper code. I preferred EDI in the form of "I am the ship" over Joker asking Mordin what it would take to have sex with her (do you think she'd need to sit on the heat register for a few minutes beforehand? 8|). That's just me.

How are their actions "inseparable," and how is that any excuse to sweep them under the rug instead of examining what, why, and how to deal with it? It seems the writers wanted it both ways; to treat the Geth as mindless beasts who couldn't be held accountable for anything they've done (stimulus-response-stimulus-response, "you forced them to rebel, you forced them to join the reapers"), yet somehow warranted moral equivalency to other living beings who are expected to take responsibility for their actions (as they should be).

@Xil, not at all. I'm not saying the option should be excluded, I'm saying the full picture (consistent with what was previously established) should have been put out there so people would make informed decisions. I fail to see how outright contradicting previous lore (going even further than they did) is an improvement over avoiding repeat mention of it for the benefit of the uninitiated.

[Xilizhra]

I had a greater appreciation for what they were pre-Reaper code. I preferred EDI in the form of "I am the ship" over Joker asking Mordin what it would take to have sex with her (do you think she'd need to sit on the heat register for a few minutes beforehand? 8|). That's just me.

How are their actions "inseparable," and how is that any excuse to sweep them under the rug instead of examining what, why, and how to deal with it? It seems the writers wanted it both ways; to treat the Geth as mindless beasts who couldn't be held accountable for anything they've done (stimulus-response-stimulus-response, "you forced them to rebel, you forced them to join the reapers"), yet somehow warranted moral equivalency to other living beings who are expected to take responsibility for their actions (as they should be).

They began as the former and evolved into the latter. And then devolved into the former again when such a large reserve of their racial intelligence was destroyed by the quarians, which is the whole reason they needed the upgrade.

 

As for EDI... I enjoy the challenge she gives to anyone squicked out by AI growing close to humans.

[jtav]

I think the most honest thing to do is just side with the quarians. I liked the geth as they were in ME2. Either way, they cease to exist over Rannoch. But people are at least sad about it, and I don't have to put up with quite so much Pinnochio syndrome.

[AlanC9]

How are their actions "inseparable," and how is that any excuse to sweep them under the rug instead of examining what, why, and how to deal with it? It seems the writers wanted it both ways; to treat the Geth as mindless beasts who couldn't be held accountable for anything they've done (stimulus-response-stimulus-response, "you forced them to rebel, you forced them to join the reapers"), yet somehow warranted moral equivalency to other living beings who are expected to take responsibility for their actions (as they should be).

I suppose you could just go all the way and say that no one's ever responsible for anything; organic or synthetic, it's all just stimulus and response.

[Xilizhra]

I think the most honest thing to do is just side with the quarians. I liked the geth as they were in ME2. Either way, they cease to exist over Rannoch. But people are at least sad about it, and I don't have to put up with quite so much Pinnochio syndrome.

How is that "honest?"

 

It's also not Pinnochioesque, it's just a necessity for survival.

[CronoDragoon]

How are their actions "inseparable," and how is that any excuse to sweep them under the rug instead of examining what, why, and how to deal with it? It seems the writers wanted it both ways; to treat the Geth as mindless beasts who couldn't be held accountable for anything they've done (stimulus-response-stimulus-response, "you forced them to rebel, you forced them to join the reapers"), yet somehow warranted moral equivalency to other living beings who are expected to take responsibility for their actions (as they should be).

 

 

I didn't say we should sweep them under the rug, but many of the missteps they have made are because of their particular synthetic make-up. For example, their increased stupidity after the quarian attack leading to them joining the Reapers: crap like that is eliminated by Legion's upgrade. My point with this was approving of their development in ME3 that eliminated all the dead-ends the hivemind was leading them towards.

 

  Your assertion that the writers don't hold them accountable also doesn't gel with what Legion actually says when Shepard confronts him about lying. I'm not going to argue that ME3 undersells the geth's atrocities in the Morning War, but the whitewash isn't as extreme as what you are making it out to be.

[DeinonSlayer]

They began as the former and evolved into the latter. And then devolved into the former again when such a large reserve of their racial intelligence was destroyed by the quarians, which is the whole reason they needed the upgrade.

As for EDI... I enjoy the challenge she gives to anyone squicked out by AI growing close to humans.

Even if I accepted that argument, what's their excuse for the intervening centuries? Killing everyone who attempted peaceful contact with them, wrapping the star that keeps Rannoch alive in a Dyson bubble, twiddling their thumbs for two years of heretic attacks without even sending a message to the galaxy denying involvement?

These things shouldn't have been kept quiet. We should have been able to ask these questions, and they should have had answers for them. Like I said earlier, I'd have liked similar Q&A for Gerrel and Wrex, get their perspectives even if you can't change their minds.

[Xilizhra]

Even if I accepted that argument, what's their excuse for the intervening centuries? Killing everyone who attempted peaceful contact with them, wrapping the star that keeps Rannoch alive in a Dyson bubnle, twiddling their thumbs for two years of heretic attacks without even sending a message to the galaxy denying involvement?

These things shouldn't have been kept quiet. We should have been able to ask these questions, and they should have had answers for them. Like I said earlier, I'd have liked similar Q&A for Gerrel and Wrex, get their perspectives even if you can't change their minds.

There should have been time to ask these questions... in ME2, to Legion. None of it is relevant anymore in the present situation by ME3.

Also, Dyson spheres don't block out all solar output, and only a small fraction of a star's total light is required for a planet to maintain its status quo.

[Argolas]

The whole mess on Rannoch could have been avoided if the Quarians had not taken stupid pills and attacked the Geth in the middle of a Reaper invasion.

 

It's not stupid, the timing makes sense to me.

[Anubis722]

The whole mess on Rannoch could have been avoided if the Quarians had not taken stupid pills and attacked the Geth in the middle of a Reaper invasion.

We'll if the Geth have not taken their stupid pills first and spend 3 centuries killing anyone who try to make peace with them and letting Heretics be their embassdor to galaxy then mess could have being avoided.

[CronoDragoon]

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[Argolas]

Do you honestly believe that it makes sense to instigate hostilities with a faction that has openly stated its desire to cooperate with the Quarians at a critical time when unity among the species of the galaxy is more valuable than ever?

 

Are you justifying the selfish and opportunistic decision of the Quarians to retake their homeworld while the Council is preoccupied with the Reaper invasion? 

 

Sometimes a little selfishness is needed to survive. Rannoch is the only possible homeworld for the Quarians, and the Geth have been sitting there for ages, killing anyone who came near it. Now that the Reapers are here, the Quarians desperately need their planet back or a single Reaper attack on their fleet would wipe them out. Also, once they got their civillians save back on Rannoch, they can commit their full fleet, including the lifeships, to the war effort without endangering their civillians. Justifying is one thing, but I can understand the Quarians, to say the least.

[CronoDragoon]

Are you justifying the selfish and opportunistic decision of the Quarians to retake their homeworld while the Council is preoccupied with the Reaper invasion?

 

Are you justifying the geth killing anyone who comes close to Rannoch while telling Shepard they want reconciliation with the creators?

 

Geth: We are maintaining Rannoch until the quarians return.

Quarians: Cool, we're ready to return.

Geth: ...

Quarians: ....?

Geth: ....

Quarians: ....

 

What the geth say and what they do is often at odds. Legion himself says the geth are not an honest group of peeps.

[Steelcan]

I kill the geth because I am a neo-luddite genocide fetishist who gets his kicks by torturing puppies and toasters

[Barquiel]

Sometimes a little selfishness is needed to survive. Rannoch is the only possible homeworld for the Quarians, and the Geth have been sitting there for ages, killing anyone who came near it. Now that the Reapers are here, the Quarians desperately need their planet back or a single Reaper attack on their fleet would wipe them out. Also, once they got their civillians save back on Rannoch, they can commit their full fleet, including the lifeships, to the war effort without endangering their civillians. Justifying is one thing, but I can understand the Quarians, to say the least.

 

The only reason the quarians attacked the geth was because of Xen's weapon, but they underestimated the enemy's ability to adept. I mean, Rannoch is everything but save. Your civilians are trapped on it...and they are completely defenseless. At least their lifeships can try to escape.
 

[Steelcan]

The only reason the quarians attacked the geth was because of Xen's weapon, but they underestimated the enemy's ability to adept. I mean, Rannoch is everything but save. Your civilians are trapped on it...and they are completely defenseless. At least their lifeships can try to escape.
 

 

Right when Victory is within their grasp? 

[Argolas]

The only reason the quarians attacked the geth was because of Xen's weapon, but they underestimated the enemy's ability to adept willingness to ally with the Reapers. 
 

 

Fixed.

[DeinonSlayer]

.

Do you honestly believe that it makes sense to instigate hostilities with a faction that has openly stated its desire to cooperate with the Quarians at a critical time when unity among the species of the galaxy is more valuable than ever?

Are you justifying the selfish and opportunistic decision of the Quarians to retake their homeworld while the Council is preoccupied with the Reaper invasion?

That's Paragon Shepard word-for-word, but thankfully we aren't compelled to think that way (Para!Shep being the same idiot who chews out Raan over an arms limitation treaty the Quarians aren't even subject to). That was one area where the writers covered all bases pretty fairly.

Legion severed communication with them before they invaded (because, as we later see, his buddies were strapping him into the Reaper cage). Negotiation was off the table. I've yet to see anyone provide an alternative course of action for the Quarians (suggestions usually amount to pulling a previously-unknown dextro world suitable for colonization out of their collective asses or "You have reached the Citadel Council, please hold"). Koris' stated alternative to reclaiming Rannoch is to drift in space, neither offering nor receiving assistance from the other species and hoping the Reapers won't find them. I could go into more detail, but we've already veered way off topic (for which I apologize).

[Barquiel]

Fixed.

 

As Admiral Koris put it "We drove the Geth straight into the Reapers arms." But that's what I meant, yes

 

The quarians knew, or should have known, that the geth weren't alligned with the reapers at the time that they attacked. It would have taken them decades or centuries to adapt to Rannoch anyway. They could have dropped their 17 million civilians on any colony, or better a couple of different colonies. The support of their fleet would have made them more than welcome.

[DeinonSlayer]

re:
Barquiel, hold on... *shuffling papers*

Talking point 7: What Turian colony (singular or plural) is not already under attack, not overwhelmed by their own refugees, and willing and able to take in seventeen million refugees with finicky diets? The Citadel itself is running out of food. If you go to the Citadel before the end of Priority: Rannoch, instead of coordinating the evacuation of a Turian colony, Tali is asking for (and being denied) Turian aid.

[Barquiel]

What about Elcor colonies? They can obviously colonize the same worlds, and they get attacked late in the war (around the same time that the asari are attacked, and some of their worlds were still unattacked at the end of the war).

[Steelcan]

What about Elcor colonies? They can obviously colonize the same worlds, and they get attacked late in the war (around the same time that the asari are attacked, and some of their worlds were still unattacked at the end of the war).

 

Elcor aren't dextro amino acid based