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[LobselVith8]

There was a discussion in a thread previously where the contrasting views about the fall of the Dales was discussed, and I thought I'd bring it up, since it might reflect the hypothetical Dalish Inquisitor.

 

In Origins, there are two accounts to the fall of the Dales: the human version, where the humans viewed the elves as the instigators for an attack on the town of Red Crossing, and the Dalish version, where the People (and even the elven Warden in conversation) can express that the war started because the elves wouldn't capitulate to the Chantry and convert.

 

Some posters felt that World of Thedas was an example of the developers saying that the human version was true over the Dalish version, because the text addressed the attack on Red Crossing was the inception of the war, while others (including myself) disagreed, because WoT didn't get into the schism between there being two versions of this historical conflict.

 

To be perfectly clear: I don't think we're given enough information to say with absolute certainly whether one historical account is correct over the other (although I know posters have their preferences).

 

I don't think the omission is necessarily a reflection that the developers were making a choice between the two versions, since WoT doesn't really delve that much into the Dalish cultural and religious perspective. For example, it doesn't get into the nuances of how the Dalish don't share the same views as Andrastians about the Fade (the Beyond) and Spirits and Demons (spirits), which we know about from conversations between Merrill and Anders:

 

Act I -

 

Anders: Maybe you don't really understand the difference between spirits and demons.

 

Merrill: Did I ask you?

 

Anders: Spirits were the first children of the Maker, but He turned his back on them to dote on His mortal creations. The ones who resented this became demons, driven to take everything mortals had and gain back the Maker's favor.

 

Merrill: Your "Maker" is a story you humans use to explain the world. We have our own stories. I don't need to borrow yours.

 

Act II -

 

Anders: Do Dalish honestly not recognize the difference between demons and beneficial spirits?

 

Merrill: We've never thought of the Fade as the home of our gods. It is another realm, another people's home. No different or more foreign than, say, Orzammar.

 

Varric: You can say that again.

 

Anders: But have you never studied the types of demons? They break down very clearly into different sins--

 

Merrill: Spirits differ from each other, just as you and Hawke and Isabela are all human. More or less...

 

There is a line about the Dalish and their view of spirits as dangerous in WoT, but it's not elaborated on for the uninitiated; you need to be familiar with the religious discussions between Merrill and Anders to even understand it's context.

 

Given that, I don't necessarily think that it means that the developers made a choice between the two historical accounts. With Inquisition still in development, I'm honestly hoping that the Dalish Inquisitor isn't simply a re-skinned Andrastian, but that he's a culturally (and potentially religiously) different person. A protagonist who says 'the Beyond' instead of the Fade, who sees 'spirits' instead of 'Spirits and Demons', who was taught a different historical account about the fall of the Dales than the humans and the elves in Andrastian lands, and who might revere Shartan while Andrastians revere Andraste.

 

As someone who is interested in the prospect of playing as one of the Elvhen, part of my interest is in the fact that they are different than their Andrastian counterparts. Their view of spirits, the Beyond, their faith in the Creators, their struggle to build a future and maintain a heritage that was nearly lost to slavery and invasion, and surviving on a continent where their faith in their religion alone is criminalized in human lands (not to mention the existence of free mages in the clan). Their different historical account about the fall of the Dales was interesting as well, and I'm hoping that the different points of view and cultural heritage is maintained for the Dalish Inquisitor.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

The dalish started the war by attacking 1st, they might have been annoyed about chantry missionaries in the dales but they struck the 1st blow by attacking Red Crossing.

[Xilizhra]

I think all we can really do is, having gotten them to put in new racial options (and with their revelations about elven PCs seemingly mostly focused on Dalish), keep on hoping and letting them know it's what we want.

[Cainhurst Crow]

I think the world of thedas is more about giving bare bones facts then in depth accounts. Red crossing was sacked, it was the starting point in which everyone recognized there was a full blown war occurring. There could, or could not, have been border skirmishes before then, but that is all it was, skirmishes that didn't reflect the attitudes of the ruling power. There isn't evidence to support the Templars or missionaries did any sort of violent actions against the dalish, but there is evidence the dalish sacked a human city.

[EmissaryofLies]

It would definitely be a mistake, an egregious one at that. 

 

What would even be the point of a so-called "Dalish" elf if you make him/her a reskinned Andrastian?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The attack on Red Crossing was mentioned in Dragon Age: Origins too. But not in any of the Dalish accounts of the war. I don't see why it would necessarily be any different this time around. Besides, the real issue the Dalish should have with humans is how the war ended, not how it began.

 

Also, since you brought it up again, you're wrong about the Dalish perspective on spirits. Both Merrill and Marethari use the word "demon" many many times over the course of the game. At one point Merrill even says "I summoned the...  spirit" as if the word "demon" was the word that she mos naturally uses but caught herself. That implied she's aware of the difference but also of the inherently negative connotations of the word and is intentionally trying to disassociate her work from it.

 

Merrill's not called a "Dalish Pariah" for nothing. Her views on the denizens of the Fade is not typical of the Dalish at all. In fact given her eagerness to treat with them it's essentially the exact opposite.

 

The belief in a distinction between spirits and demons is not religious in nature. Not only Andrastians believe there is one. People and beings who don't believe or worship the Maker acknowledge a difference. Even Spirits and Demons themselves believe there is one.

 

It's also worth noting that World of Thedas doesn't cover any of the Andrastian theology behind Spirits and Demons either, so it's not like it goes out of it's way to ingore the Dalish perspective on the Beyond.

[Blank-Slate-Blues]

All this talk about who started what reminds me that I need to do a bit of research for my Dalish Inquisitor

[LobselVith8]

The dalish started the war by attacking 1st, they might have been annoyed about chantry missionaries in the dales but they struck the 1st blow by attacking Red Crossing.

 

That's certainly the Chantry version about the inception of the war with the Dales, but the Dalish version differs in saying there was human incursion on their sovereign territory. That's my point: there are two versions about the fall of the Dales, and even the elven Warden can express the alternative to the one espoused by the Chantry by saying the Dales was invaded because the elves refused to convert.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

That's certainly the Chantry version about the inception of the war with the Dales, but the Dalish version differs in saying there was human incursion on their sovereign territory. That's my point: there are two versions about the fall of the Dales, and even the elven Warden can express the alternative to the one espoused by the Chantry by saying the Dales was invaded because the elves refused to convert.

I think the Dalish misinterpreted the Templars traveling with the missionaries as the armed incursions. I mean, what else would they think when men and women dressed head to toe in plate armor and armed to the teeth move around your territory?

[EmissaryofLies]

All this talk about who started what reminds me that I need to do a bit of research for my Dalish Inquisitor

 

Personally, it reminds me of third grade. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Dalish codex does not say there was a templar invasion before the war started. It only says there were templars fighting there during the war before the Fall of Halmshiral.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

That's certainly the Chantry version about the inception of the war with the Dales, but the Dalish version differs in saying there was human incursion on their sovereign territory. That's my point: there are two versions about the fall of the Dales, and even the elven Warden can express the alternative to the one espoused by the Chantry by saying the Dales was invaded because the elves refused to convert.

Sounds like a excuse to attack Orlais, the dales built up their forces & kept out of the blight then invaded a weakened orlais going so far as to sack the capital, seems like there was alot of planning beforehand.

[LobselVith8]

The attack on Red Crossing was mentioned in Dragon Age: Origins too. But not in any of the Dalish accounts of the war. I don't see why it would necessarily be any different this time around. Besides, the real issue the Dalish should have with humans is how the war ended, not how it began.

 

I'm not putting doubt into the attack on the town of Red Crossing, but if it was an elven attack in retaliation to human incursion into their independent kingdom, then that doesn't make the attack unprovoked. I'm simply pointing out that there are two versions to the historical account.

 

Also, since you brought it up again, you're wrong about the Dalish perspective on spirits. Both Merrill and Marethari use the word "demon" many many times over the course of the game. At one point Merrill even says "I summoned the...  spirit" as if the word "demon" was the word that she mos naturally uses but caught herself. That implied she's aware of the difference but also of the inherently negative connotations of the word and is intentionally trying to disassociate her work from it.

 

Merrill's not called a "Dalish Pariah" for nothing. Her views on the denizens of the Fade is not typical of the Dalish at all. In fact given her eagerness to treat with them it's essentially the exact opposite.

 

The belief in a distinction between spirits and demons is not religious in nature. Not only Andrastians believe there is one. People and beings who don't believe or worship the Maker acknowledge a difference. Even Spirits and Demons themselves believe there is one.

 

Marethari and Merrill invoke the term 'demon' in the presence of Andrastians like Hawke (and his eclectic entourage of fellow Andrastians), who expresses confusion when Marethari mentions the Beyond instead of the Fade.

 

Anders makes it explicitly clear that Spirits are viewed as the First Children of the Maker, and Demons as Spirits who turned their backs on the Maker in jealousy over humanity, representing a myriad of "sins". I highly doubt the Dalish share these views with Andrastians when the People see the Beyond as a plane with dangerous spirits, and purposefully avoid schools of magic that involve spirits.

 

Merrill is a pariah for being a blood mage and building an Eluvian in express opposition to what Keeper Marethari desired. I also don't see how her religious views are atypical. If the Dalish don't believe in beneficial spirits, the Elvhen aren't going to see a distinction between Spirits and Demons, not to mention the religious rhetoric tied to those distinctions.

 

As for others who also use the distinction (like the dwarves), they use terms invoked by the society who established them (Andrastian humans).

[wcholcombe]

No, I don't think it means the Dalish Perspective will be abandoned.  I think what it does mean is the dalish view from DAO is inaccurate as is common with oral histories.

 

Are there things the Dalish are right about, I am sure.

 

What I find amazing is the refusal that the Dalish could be wrong on this.  No one is debating the attrocities committed to the Dalish by Tevinter or any other dalish accounts, but this one thing that shows the Dalish in the wrong on something is unbearable to some of you is amazing to me.

 

The dalish aren't saints.  They are just as capable of being in the wrong or committing attrocities as any other race on Thedas.

Humans-we have many

Qunari-again many

Dwarves-if nothing else they destroyed a Thaig for hiding escaped elves because they didn't want to make the Magisters mad.

[Cainhurst Crow]

I think the Dalish misinterpreted the Templars traveling with the missionaries as the armed incursions. I mean, what else would they think when men and women dressed head to toe in plate armor and armed to the teeth move around your territory?

 

That is most certainly true, and there is a good reason the Templars were travelling with the missionaries. Most like thanks to the blight orlais was in a bit of disarray, so I doubt the normal law enforcement that guarded the countryside and borders of orlais would have been as strong as it used to be. Bandits and other unsavory sorts would look at the missionaries as easy targets if not for their armed escorts. And even the dales themselves are dangerous, since the dalish had made it quite clear when the blight was raging that they were no friends to the humans. I certainly wouldn't send anyone near the dales without at least some highly trained and armored protection.

 

It's, I think, one of the tragedies of history. That what could have been a simple misunderstanding was allowed to escalate into a full scale war, because neither side trusted the other to have any sort of goodwill within them. Though the fact that there are dalish accounts that would omit how they took over orlisian territory in the war is troubling to say the least.

[LobselVith8]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I remember that even the Hahren in the Dalish origin admitted they attacked that human village/city first. Which was all the reason the Chantry needed to call on the Exalted Marches.

 

It's said by Hahren Paivel the humans were resentful towards the elves, and the elven protagonist mentions how the humans wouldn't let them be, followed by Paivel stating: "They were resentful because we would not worship their god, and because we put our people first. Over the years, their nations grew cold to us. In their eyes, we were blasphemers and cruel tyrants."

 

I haven't sat down to really read WoT yet, but isn't it supposed to be mostly written from Brother Genetivi's perspective? Would make sense why there aren't much on the Dalish lore there, as they keep their history and lore mostly to themselves. Same for why Merrill doesn't discuss it much with the others. It'd be like betraying all of the Dalish if she did.

 

Which is disappointing about WoT, since I rather like elven culture, and would have preferred to get more insight into the culture of the People. Some posters have expressed that they feel the elven aspect is rather marginalized in WoT.

 

Anyways, with the high probability of visiting the Dales in DA: I, we might find out more about their version of the history and their perspective on certain things. Specially if we're dalish ourselves.

 

I certainly hope so.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Anders does talk about Andrastian theology regarding spirits and demons. But the belief that they are the children of the Maker is not inherently tied up in the notion that they are different. That belief is just Andrastians' attempts to explain why they are different.

 

The distinction existed long before Andraste. The ancient Imperium acknowledges the existence of demons.

 

But as I said, even the beings in question agree there is a difference and they do not share the Andrastian beliefs about the Maker.

 

The Rage demon in the Denerim Alienage said: "There is no Maker. There is no Golden City. But there are demons."

 

Justice said "My kind and this have been opposed since the beginning of time" about Torpor and talks extensively about why he and demons are different in both games. And Torpor himself even refers to Justice as a spirit and to his rivals as demons.

[LobselVith8]

The Dalish codex does not say there was a templar invasion before the war started. It only says there were templars fighting there during the war before the Fall of Halmshiral.

 

It reads that templars followed the expulsion of the missionaries from the Dales, but even the elven Warden can state that the Dales was invaded because the elves wouldn't convert. Regardless, there is more than one version to the war between the humans and the elves.

[LobselVith8]

No, I don't think it means the Dalish Perspective will be abandoned.  I think what it does mean is the dalish view from DAO is inaccurate as is common with oral histories.

 

Are there things the Dalish are right about, I am sure.

 

What I find amazing is the refusal that the Dalish could be wrong on this.  No one is debating the attrocities committed to the Dalish by Tevinter or any other dalish accounts, but this one thing that shows the Dalish in the wrong on something is unbearable to some of you is amazing to me.

 

The dalish aren't saints.  They are just as capable of being in the wrong or committing attrocities as any other race on Thedas.

Humans-we have many

Qunari-again many

Dwarves-if nothing else they destroyed a Thaig for hiding escaped elves because they didn't want to make the Magisters mad.

 

The Dalish have oral and written history. They have a storyteller, like hahren Paivel, and written texts. Some Dalish codex entries are addressed as being written.

 

You also seem to be confusing my contention that there's more than one side to the story for something else entirely, as though my statement is somehow an argument about one historical version being correct, and another being incorrect. It's not, because I don't think anyone knows the truth, and that may not change unless one of the developers says otherwise.

 

My point is that I don't see why the Dalish Inquisitor can't express a viewpoint that matches with one that belongs to the Elvhen, whether it's a perspective of spirits and the Beyond, or one about the fall of the Dales.

[Lorien19]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I remember that even the Hahren in the Dalish origin admitted they attacked that human village/city first. Which was all the reason the Chantry needed to call on the Exalted Marches.

 

I haven't sat down to really read WoT yet, but isn't it supposed to be mostly written from Brother Genetivi's perspective? Would make sense why there aren't much on the Dalish lore there, as they keep their history and lore mostly to themselves. Same for why Merrill doesn't discuss it much with the others. It'd be like betraying all of the Dalish if she did.

 

Anyways, with the high probability of visiting the Dales in DA: I, we might find out more about their version of the history and their perspective on certain things. Specially if we're dalish ourselves.

Who also happens to be a devoted Andrastian...I'm not saying that the Dalish are saints and incapable of committing hostilities,but I think we should take every source of information with a grain of salt depending on where it comes from(like RL history ).Even If they did attack the Red crossing first,we don't know their motivation behind the attack.

Though I believe the exalted march would happen eventually whether the Dalish attacked or not.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Who also happens to be a devoted Andrastian...I'm not saying that the Dalish are saints and incapable of committing hostilities,but I think we should take every source of information with a grain of salt depending on where it comes from(like RL history ).Even If they did attack the Red crossing first,we don't know their motivation behind the attack.

Though I believe the exalted march would happen eventually whether the Dalish attacked or not.

 

OK except the book says at the start that the main text is objective. The out of character part.

 

It reads that templars followed the expulsion of the missionaries from the Dales, but even the elven Warden can state that the Dales was invaded because the elves wouldn't convert. Regardless, there is more than one version to the war between the humans and the elves.

Yeah, it reads templars followed the expelled missionaries and what followed that is the Fall of Halamshiral. It's talking about the war.

 

The Dalish perspective is that the Chantry attacked because the Dales wouldn't convert. They believe the Exalted March was what happened because they banished the Chantry's missionaries.

[Veruin]

Who also happens to be a devoted Andrastian...I'm not saying that the Dalish are saints and incapable of committing hostilities,but I think we should take every source of information with a grain of salt depending on where it comes from(like RL history ).Even If they did attack the Red crossing first,we don't know their motivation behind the attack.

Though I believe the exalted march would happen eventually whether the Dalish attacked or not.

Genitivi also admits his bias and will point things out that the chantry denies.  I'd say he's one of the least possible biased people we have.

[Shadow Fox]

I just hope I can be a City Elf...

[LobselVith8]

Genitivi also admits his bias and will point things out that the chantry denies.  I'd say he's one of the least possible biased people we have.

 

His denigration of the Dalish for following their own gods instead of the Maker, and his proclamation that humans are the rightful masters of Thedas (which comes across as blatantly racist when non-humans live on Thedas) force me to respectfully disagree.