344 réponses à ce sujet

[Master Warder Z_]

I misread.

 

By the way, I never stated that I am God. I stated that I'll beat you .

 

God will not vacate his throne on your whim!

[The Elder King]

God will not vacate his throne on your whim!

I don't need to do anything. You already lost your throne .

[Master Warder Z_]

I don't need to do anything. You already lost your throne .

 

Go rot in your cell for a thousand years -_-''

[The Elder King]

Go rot in your cell for a thousand years -_-''

At least I'm still alive. I can't be killed, and I'm still able to screw people .

[LobselVith8]

Lobsel, just curious. So we know you often emphasize the elvish perspective on the non-differentiation between spirits and demons, and you keep emphasizing that view of difference is Andrastian in nature.
 
Well, while the Chantry does put a gloss on it, and claims "spirits are the first children of the Maker," it is interesting Justice says he's never seen or met the Maker, and spirits really aren't sure whether or not he exists (of course, it seems that they just aren't sure, and none of them go near the Black City in the Fade now). So if he DID make them, they are unaware of it. 
 
But anyway, while it may be true the elves don't differentiate, it doesn't seem to solely be an Andrastian/human view, because dwarves and qunari also seem to think spirits and demons are beings of different natures (based on dialogue I can recall from all the games.)

I'd say it's an issue of the dwarves getting their information from Andrastian sources, as they trade their lyrium with the Chantry, and dwarves have no mages for them to attain their own information. As for the Qunari, WoT notes they believe the Fade is the Land of the Dead, and they even claim they don't dream. (page 143)

In Amaranthine, Justice says that the denizens of the Fade are greatly influenced by mortals and their dreams, which explains their personalities. Justice is aware of the Maker, since he asks the Warden-Commander whether or not he believes in the Maker, but he admits that spirits don't know the truth (as you also addressed). Another factor is that, in the Wending Woods, the Dalish are a foreign concept to Justice, and he needs to be informed about them. I think the distinction is more Dalish, since the Alienage elves likely hold the same views that are espoused by the Chantry.

[wcholcombe]

With regards to the dwarves, why on earth would they be expected to accept human beliefs on the darkspawn?  Correct or not, the dwarves wouldn't have been involved in the processes that resulted in entering the Golden City.

 

As far as they were concerned, they were mining lyrium one day and the darkspawn showed up. I doubt the Tevinter Magisters sent out a facebook announcement that they were entering the golden city tomorrow.  The dwarves were probably unaware of it even happening except for possibly a big order of lyrium one day and a great reduction in the number of elven slaves in Tevinter the next.

 

According to the timeline- The first blight begins in 395 ancient.  The darkspawn start attacking the deep roads in 380 ancient.  Also, it says in WoT in 380 the darkspawn use the deep roads to reach the edges of the imperium, which would at least make it sound like the darkspawn originated in the heart of the imperium.

 

On a side note I didn't realize the dwarves closed of the roads from Orzammar in 15 ancient...That means Orzammar has for the most part been the only Dwarven city for  almost a Millenium.  I had somehow failed to notice it had been that long....

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Justice only knows the Maker (as opposed to the general idea of a creator that some spirits believe in) from Kirstoff's memories. He knows nothing about the specific theology behind Andrastianism. His belief in a distinction between spirits and demons is based on his own experience not Andrastianism. Dwarves have traded with humans for much longer than there is a Chantry and even Tevinter had a belief there was a distinction between spirits and demons. But even demons themselves believe there is a difference between spirits and demons. According to Merrill some of them have been around since before the fall of Arlathan, so if they were influenced by mortals it wouldn't have been the Chantry. The belief there is a distinction is absolutely not just Andrastian. In fact the only person who suggests that demons are "just spirits" is Merrill and she uses the word demon in almost every time they are encountered. It's more than just humoring Hawke because at one point she awkardly catches herself from using the word demon, and called it a spirit, which seems to indicate that she knows there's a difference and intentionally trying to use a more palatable word.

[LobselVith8]

Justice only knows the Maker (as opposed to the general idea of a creator that some spirits believe in) from Kirstoff's memories. He knows nothing about the specific theology behind Andrastianism. His belief in a distinction between spirits and demons is based on his own experience not Andrastianism. Dwarves have traded with humans for much longer than there is a Chantry and even Tevinter had a belief there was a distinction between spirits and demons. But even demons themselves believe there is a difference between spirits and demons. According to Merrill some of them have been around since before the fall of Arlathan, so if they were influenced by mortals it wouldn't have been the Chantry. The belief there is a distinction is absolutely not just Andrastian. In fact the only person who suggests that demons are "just spirits" is Merrill and she uses the word demon in almost every time they are encountered. It's more than just humoring Hawke because at one point she awkardly catches herself from using the word demon, and called it a spirit, which seems to indicate that she knows there's a difference and intentionally trying to use a more palatable word.

Between the religious conversations between Merrill and Anders, and WoT noting that the Dalish "believe all spirits are dangerous" (page 104, which echoes precisely what Merrill said on the subject), I'm disinclined to believe your theory that Merrill is lying on the subject.

[Lorien19]

Between the religious conversations between Merrill and Anders, and WoT noting that the Dalish "believe all spirits are dangerous" (page 104, which echoes precisely what Merrill said on the subject), I'm disinclined to believe your theory that Merrill is lying on the subject.

 

Although the Dalish do distinct spirits as malevolent and non-malevolent,they just don't use the same terminology as the Chantry.
So yes they recognize that spirits have distinctive personalities and some are more dangerous that others,but don't trust either nevertheless.Though they might use the term demon occasionally,particularly when they discuss with an Andrastian character like Hawke.

So In that particular case, It wouldn't bother me that much,if my Dalish quizzy referred to a malevolent spirit of the fade as "demon" since they are more likely to interact with Andrastian humans most of the time.On the other hand I'd like to see the Dalish inquisitor to use more dalish terminology about other subjects.

[The Hierophant]

lobselVith8 reread Jedi Master of Orion's post. It pokes holes in the notion that all spirits are the same while the concept of distinctions between spirits might predate the Chantry. JMoO (lol) makes no statement that the spirits named after virtues aren't dangerous like the spirits of sin.

[LobselVith8]

lobselVith8 reread Jedi Master of Orion's post. It pokes holes in the notion that all spirits are the same while the concept of distinctions between spirits might predate the Chantry. JMoO (lol) makes no statement that the spirits named after virtues aren't dangerous like the spirits of sin.

When Merrill encounters Torpor, she warns Hawke that it's a creature of sloth. I don't doubt the Dalish know that all spirits exhibit different traits, but since they view all spirits as dangerous, there's no divide between beneficial and malevolent, or between the First Children of the Maker and the ones who turned their backs on the Maker in jealousy over humanity.

I really don't see why some find it necessary for the Dalish to have the same views as Andrastians, especially when WoT goes the extra step of pointing out that the Dalish prohibit the use of schools of magic that involve spirits.

[Mistic]

Although the Dalish do distinct spirits as malevolent and non-malevolent,they just don't use the same terminology as the Chantry.
So yes they recognize that spirits have distinctive personalities and some are more dangerous that others,but don't trust either nevertheless.Though they might use the term demon occasionally,particularly when they discuss with an Andrastian character like Hawke.

So In that particular case, It wouldn't bother me that much,if my Dalish quizzy referred to a malevolent spirit of the fade as "demon" since they are more likely to interact with Andrastian humans most of the time.On the other I'd like to see the Dalish inquisitor to use more dalish terminology about other subjects.

 

^This

 

The so often mentioned conversation between Merrill and Anders was a conversation between scholars, more or less. They understand the subtle details of Demonology, so to speak. When talking to Andrastians (the vast majority of the people we're going to encounter), or Dwarves, or Qunari, I don't think the Dalish Inquisitor will be so nitpicky as to correct everyone who says "demons" instead of "spirits that are more malevolent than other spirits, so that's why a lot of people who aren't Dalish call them 'demons'".

 

The Dalish Warden sometimes mentioned that Dalish call the Fade "the Beyond", but otherwise didn't have any problem at saying "Fade" or "demons" like everyone else.

[Allan Schumacher]

It isn't my opinion, it is WORD OF GOD. You can fight it all you want, I do jsut so dearly wish you would stop flodding the forums with your Dalish master race propaganda. It gets extremely tiring having to shoot you down every damn time.

 

I'll take this moment to remind posters that the new forum has significantly improved ignore functions.

 

Now, if you're concerned that ignoring a poster that you find aggravating will allow said poster to "spread propaganda and convince others that his perspective is correct" I also take a moment to remind people:

 

1) It's a video game lore.

2) People possibly aren't changing their opinions on anything anyways.

 

 

Take part in the debate because you enjoy taking part in it.  Not because you think someone is wrong and you have to protect the others from thinking what he says is true.

[LobselVith8]

^This

The so often mentioned conversation between Merrill and Anders was a conversation between scholars, more or less. They understand the subtle details of Demonology, so to speak. When talking to Andrastians (the vast majority of the people we're going to encounter), or Dwarves, or Qunari, I don't think the Dalish Inquisitor will be so nitpicky as to correct everyone who says "demons" instead of "spirits that are more malevolent than other spirits, so that's why a lot of people who aren't Dalish call them 'demons'".

The Dalish Warden sometimes mentioned that Dalish call the Fade "the Beyond", but otherwise didn't have any problem at saying "Fade" or "demons" like everyone else.

I'm not aiming for Dalish Inquisitor trying to impose his views on others, I'm simply interested in having the protagonist being able to express his own. It would be nice if the non-Andastian main character didn't have to curtail his language or cultural views to accommodate an Andrastian mindset.

[The Hierophant]

When Merrill encounters Torpor, she warns Hawke that it's a creature of sloth. I don't doubt the Dalish know that all spirits exhibit different traits, but since they view all spirits as dangerous, there's no divide between beneficial and malevolent, or between the First Children of the Maker and the ones who turned their backs on the Maker in jealousy over humanity. 

 

I really don't see why some find it necessary for the Dalish to have the same views as Andrastians, especially when WoT goes the extra step of pointing out that the Dalish prohibit the use of schools of magic that involve spirits.

The only difference between the Chantry and Dalish is that the latter views spirits of virtue as equally dangerous. After Justice happened i wouldn't be surprised if the Chantry and Templars adopted a similar view. But the distinction between both spirit types is that one is predatory while the other isn't.

 

Plus i think the writers used Andrastian terminology instead for simplicity and convenience.

[LobselVith8]

The only difference between the Chantry and Dalish is that the latter views spirits of virtue as equally dangerous. After Justice happened i wouldn't be surprised if the Chantry and Templars adopted a similar view. But the distinction between both spirit types is that one is predatory while the other isn't.
 
Plus i think the writers used Andrastian terminology instead for simplicity and convenience.

Your last point is precisely why I'm hoping that this isn't done to the non-Andrastian Inquisitor, since it dilutes their unique cultural traits to make the character little more than a re-skinned Andrastian. Their should be differences between the Andrastian and non-Andrastian Inquisitor, besides their appearance.

[Lorien19]

I'm not aiming for Dalish Inquisitor trying to impose his views on others, I'm simply interested in having the protagonist being able to express his own. It would be nice if the non-Andastian main character didn't have to curtail his language or cultural views to accommodate an Andrastian mindset.

I understand what you mean,and personally I'd like to know more about the dalish mindsdet and views as well.
But considering the fact that our inquisitors are going to find themselves in Andrastian territory,they will probably refer to some subjects with Andrastian terminology in most occasions, so that the rest can understand what they're talking about.
Though I hope that we will have the opportunity to explain our views on some topics.
For example we could state that we don't use the terminology for malevolent spirits as humans, or that we call the fade the beyond,that we worship the creators etc...We did have this opportunity in several occasions in DA:O though,and I'd like to see it happening more often in Inquisition.Same with the Dwarfquisitor,can't say for sure about the Vashoth quizzy's views,since they don't follow the Qun.

[Mistic]

I'm not aiming for Dalish Inquisitor trying to impose his views on others, I'm simply interested in having the protagonist being able to express his own. It would be nice if the non-Andastian main character didn't have to curtail his language or cultural views to accommodate an Andrastian mindset.

 

In that case, I think the problem is the dialogue system itself. Because no protagonist can really discuss any matter or give a deep explanation; they can only say some lines in a conversation.

 

There are many threads about mages, templars, religion, past events and their consequences, law, freedom, lore, many of them with lengthy reasons for or against a given position. However, the protagonists never say much about it.

 

So for simplicity's sake, I guess we'll have to accept that the Inquisitor won't think much about it, the same everybody understands when someone says "Francis was elected Pope in 2013" despite not being Catholic or not using the Gregorian calendar (yes, there are more calendars out there).

[The Hierophant]

Lob i agree. I hope there's variation and dynamism amongst all the Inquisitors' dialogue options that highlight cultural viewpoints as most of what we know of each cultures' viewpoints like philosophy, terminology, language and myths is sparse. Plus it'll give people wiggle room to craft culturally distinct characters without there being too much overlap in povs.

[CybAnt1]

My position is the DA Wiki is neutral, if not perfectly objective (those are two different things) like Wikipedia itself; it's a collaborative project by fans and players (some of which are here now) based on codices, World O' Thedas, dev posts, and other sources. It isn't meant to only reflect the Chantry/Andrastian view. 

 

It states that spirits and demons are two different kinds of entities. It also notes that spirits aren't often that "benevolent" because most are basically indifferent to humanity. They really do NOT correspond to the Western concept of helpful, guardian "angels". I also think it would be both fair and correct to note that the Dalish view is different - and, BTW, AFAICT, also unique to the Dalish (not so much other cultures), and not held universally by all elves. 

 

And yes, thanks for Allan reminding us that at the end of the day, there should not be that much stake put into arguing over fictional lore about a fictional world/setting created for purposes of playing a video game (and, maybe, also some other media, like novels, tabletop games, and films.  ) It does kind of remind me of people arguing whether their conjugation of Klingon verbs is correct. 

 

(P.S. this is why at the end of the day I maintained some distance from the k-word debates that raged here not too long ago. My main interest is because some peoples' arguments against use of the k-word were based on some bad real-world examples/arguments. That, and as I said, I have a problem with pointless linguistic taboos.) 

[Heimdall]

How much do we actually know about the Chantry's policy about spirits? I mean, I know they don't throw them in with demons and say they embody virtues, but do they really trust them? I don't think they really see that much distinction in practice...

[CybAnt1]

OK, lore and religious arguments aside, I just ask people to note some differences you can see for yourself. 

 

1) There has been no spirit possession that occurred involuntarily. Kristoff was dead and Justice was forced into his body by the Baroness. Justice and Anders' later joining was voluntary, even if it didn't work out so well (producing Vengeance). It appears to me spirits never try and forcibly possess anyone, whereas demons do (particularly mages). (BTW, as I've said, though, I don't think Vengeance was/became a demon, nor did Anders become an abomination.)

 

2) We've encountered several demons. Has there even been a situation where they ever offered "aid" or "assistance" (stat boosts, items, whatever) without trying to get something else in return (like freedom from a magic binding, or something? -- that something often being to the detriment of another person.)

 

Whatever elves or Andastrians do or don't believe, seems to me they both act differently. That's my observation as a player. 

[Heimdall]

OK, lore and religious arguments aside, I just ask people to note some differences you can see for yourself. 
 
1) There has been no spirit possession that occurred involuntarily. Kristoff was dead and Justice was forced into his body by the Baroness. Justice and Anders' later joining was voluntary, even if it didn't work out so well (producing Vengeance). It appears to me spirits never try and forcibly possess anyone, whereas demons do (particularly mages). (BTW, as I've said, though, I don't think Vengeance was/became a demon, nor did Anders become an abomination.)
 
2) We've encountered several demons. Has there even been a situation where they ever offered "aid" or "assistance" (stat boosts, items, whatever) without trying to get something else in return (like freedom from a magic binding, or something? -- that something often being to the detriment of another person.)
 
Whatever elves or Andastrians do or don't believe, seems to me they both act differently. That's my observation as a player.

I agree, I'm just curious about Andrastrian beliefs.

[Lorien19]

How much do we actually know about the Chantry's policy about spirits? I mean, I know they don't throw them in with demons and say they embody virtues, but do they really trust them? I don't think they really see that much distinction in practice...

I'd say that their attitude towards spirits is different from that of the Dalish. After all the spirit healer specialization which requires the assistance of spirits from the fade and is freely practised by circle mages,proves that the unlike with demons,that the chantry isn't as distrustful towards non malevolent spirits.Otherwise such practises would be frowned upon,like it happens with the use of blood magic,which requires the assistance of demons.
Although spirit healers are usually watched by the templars more closely,than practitioners of any other school of magic due to their interaction with the fade.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I didn't mean that Merrill was "lying" as in being intentionally deceitful (demons technically are spirits so she was trying to convince herself or others that her work was less dangerous by using a more neutral word) or that Dalish don't view all spirits as dangerous. I said they still recognize there is a distinction between the sub groups of spirits. In the same way wild animals are all dangerous, but not all of them are carnivores. Not all spirits would be dangerous for the same reason. The concept of a category of spirits with specific traits that means it is classified as a "demon" is something that predates Andraste.