344 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

OK, lore and religious arguments aside, I just ask people to note some differences you can see for yourself. 
 
1) There has been no spirit possession that occurred involuntarily. Kristoff was dead and Justice was forced into his body by the Baroness. Justice and Anders' later joining was voluntary, even if it didn't work out so well (producing Vengeance). It appears to me spirits never try and forcibly possess anyone, whereas demons do (particularly mages). (BTW, as I've said, though, I don't think Vengeance was/became a demon, nor did Anders become an abomination.)
 
2) We've encountered several demons. Has there even been a situation where they ever offered "aid" or "assistance" (stat boosts, items, whatever) without trying to get something else in return (like freedom from a magic binding, or something? -- that something often being to the detriment of another person.)
 
Whatever elves or Andastrians do or don't believe, seems to me they both act differently. That's my observation as a player.

I don't think anyone disputes there are differences among the denizens of the Fade (the Beyond). Merrill even points out they are all different, just like humans can differ greatly: "Spirits differ from each other, just as you and Hawke and Isabela are all human. More or less..." It's not as though Merrill argues there are no differences, just that those differences don't change the fact that they are spirits, as well as dangerous.

Even the Chantry says demons are spirits in the codex entry: "History claims they are malevolent spirits, the first children of the Maker, angry at their creator for turning from them and jealous of those creations He considered superior."

There's also no WoG confirmation, one way or another. When this issue came up, Gaider addressed he never said spirits and demons were fundamentally different, instead leaving it ambiguous.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

There's also no WoG confirmation, one way or another. When this issue came up, Gaider addressed he never said spirits and demons were fundamentally different, instead leaving it ambiguous.

I seem to remember him defining demon as "malicious spirit" and saying the two are technically the same species (I think wolves and dogs are a good analogy for this view, notwithstanding that I don't think he ever used it) but I could be wrong.

[LobselVith8]

I didn't mean that Merrill was "lying" as in being intentionally deceitful (demons technically are spirits so she was trying to convince herself or others that her work was less dangerous by using a more neutral word) or that Dalish don't view all spirits as dangerous. I said they still recognize there is a distinction between the sub groups of spirits. In the same way wild animals are all dangerous, but not all of them are carnivores. Not all spirits would be dangerous for the same reason. The concept of a category of spirits with specific traits that means it is classified as a "demon" is something that predates Andraste.

I don't see why you think the Dalish would use the same terms that even the codex entries address are tied to their religious views (and early human norms don't reflect elven views). Merrill not using the term 'demon' makes sense given how the Dalish view all spirits as dangerous, which means they don't see some as beneficial. I don't think she was trying to be disingenuous; she's simply not Andrastian.

As the codex on Spirits reads: "According to the Chantry, the Spirits of the Fade are the First Children of the Maker. He turned His back on them because they lacked a soul - they could twist the Fade to their liking, but lacked the ability to imagine and create, and thus emulate their creator."

However, the codex affirms that Demons are Spirits: "Supposedly, ever since the Maker created His new children, the Spirits of the Fade have watched humanity with curiousity and, in the case of the more malicious Spirits, envy and desire."

Even though Merrill identifies certain creatures of the Fade with certain traits (like sloth), I don't think that means she should see them as Demons. Or that the Dalish should, either.

[Master Warder Z_]

I seem to remember him defining demon as "malicious spirit" and saying the two are technically the same species (I think wolves and dogs are a good analogy for this view, notwithstanding that I don't think he ever used it) but I could be wrong.

 

I do believe i know the quote you are speaking of.

 

Lastly, Gaider implied that spirits and demons are, by nature, different, something which I was never quite clear on. They are not exactly the same thing, despite what Merrill and others would have you believe.

 

http://dragonage.wik...ia_to_a_Fangirl

 

God has spoken!

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I do believe i know the quote you are speaking of.

 

Lastly, Gaider implied that spirits and demons are, by nature, different, something which I was never quite clear on. They are not exactly the same thing, despite what Merrill and others would have you believe.

 

http://dragonage.wik...ia_to_a_Fangirl

 

God has spoken!

Not quite. This plays up the differences, and what I think Gaider was trying to get across was that those differences are almost superficial except insofar as their behavior goes.

 

Edit: Also, I think Gaider discredited that quote, since it doesn't properly describe the degree to which they are similar.

[Master Warder Z_]

Not quite. This plays up the differences, and what I think Gaider was trying to get across was that those differences are almost superficial except insofar as their behavior goes.

 

Edit: Also, I think Gaider discredited that quote, since it doesn't properly describe the degree to which they are similar.

 

It's the only quote by him that i found discussing the subject, feel free to dig for your own.

[LobselVith8]

It's the only quote by him that i found discussing the subject, feel free to dig for your own.

Gaider discredited it here as something that was "misremembered": http://social.biowar...ex/8379461&lf=8

[Master Warder Z_]

Gaider discredited it here as something that was "misremembered": http://social.biowar...ex/8379461&lf=8

 

Alrightie.

 

Well that settles it then.

 

Go dig up another quote were he states his position on it.

[EmperorSahlertz]

How come no one even mentions that the Templars are EXTREMELY wary of spirit healers, particularly because they have such clsoe interactions with ANY Fade entity?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I don't see why you think the Dalish would use the same terms that even the codex entries address are tied to their religious views (and early human norms don't reflect elven views). Merrill not using the term 'demon' makes sense given how the Dalish view all spirits as dangerous, which means they don't see some as beneficial. I don't think she was trying to be disingenuous; she's simply not Andrastian.

As the codex on Spirits reads: "According to the Chantry, the Spirits of the Fade are the First Children of the Maker. He turned His back on them because they lacked a soul - they could twist the Fade to their liking, but lacked the ability to imagine and create, and thus emulate their creator."

However, the codex affirms that Demons are Spirits: "Supposedly, ever since the Maker created His new children, the Spirits of the Fade have watched humanity with curiousity and, in the case of the more malicious Spirits, envy and desire."

Even though Merrill identifies certain creatures of the Fade with certain traits (like sloth), I don't think that means she should see them as Demons. Or that the Dalish should, either.

 

Except it's NOT tied to religious views. I've given so many examples of why the distinction isn't tied to Andrastian beliefs. I don't see why this is so hard to understand. The religious views that Anders mentioned to Merrill is about why spirits and demons are different, it is not inherently tied to the belief that there is a distinction at all.

 

Justice says to Anders in Awakening that he doesn't know what makes demons the way they are, but he's very adamant that his kind and their kind are not the same. He doesn't believe in the Andrastian reason but he does believe they are different. And Torpor uses the same terminology to differentiate spirits and demons. Torpor also appears to be quite old given that he recognizes the forgotten magics that brought everyone there.

 

World of Thedas' section on the denizens of the Fade divides spirits into two categories "Demons" and "Beneficial spirits" and it doesn't do this because it's only giving perspective from the Chantry (it doesn't talk about them representing sins or any of them being jealous of humanity), it does this because that's what they are based on basic observation of their behavior. And the fact that the Dalish see all spirits as dangerous doesn't mean they don't acknowledge the concept of demons being a subgroup. At one point Marethari uses the word "demon" while talking to Merrill.

[Lorien19]

How come no one even mentions that the Templars are EXTREMELY wary of spirit healers, particularly because they have such clsoe interactions with ANY Fade entity?

But...but I did! 

[TK514]

Relevant:

Believe I mentioned this before, but once again: if you're an elf, you're Dalish.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

That does simply things quite a lot. I think it's more likely now that Dalish dialogue choices will be sufficiently present and diverse.

[LobselVith8]

Except it's NOT tied to religious views. I've given so many examples of why the distinction isn't tied to Andrastian beliefs. I don't see why this is so hard to understand. The religious views that Anders mentioned to Merrill is about why spirits and demons are different, it is not inherently tied to the belief that there is a distinction at all.

Justice says to Anders in Awakening that he doesn't know what makes demons the way they are, but he's very adamant that his kind and their kind are not the same. He doesn't believe in the Andrastian reason but he does believe they are different. And Torpor uses the same terminology to differentiate spirits and demons. Torpor also appears to be quite old given that he recognizes the forgotten magics that brought everyone there.

World of Thedas' section on the denizens of the Fade divides spirits into two categories "Demons" and "Beneficial spirits" and it doesn't do this because it's only giving perspective from the Chantry (it doesn't talk about them representing sins or any of them being jealous of humanity), it does this because that's what they are based on basic observation of their behavior. And the fact that the Dalish see all spirits as dangerous doesn't mean they don't acknowledge the concept of demons being a subgroup. At one point Marethari uses the word "demon" while talking to Merrill.

We have religious discussions between Anders and Merrill, and even codex entries, that address it's defined by Andrastian religious views. I'm not arguing the inception of the terms in human society, but how they are currently defined.

Merrill and WoT specifically use 'spirits' in addressing how the Dalish view the denizens of the Beyond; neither one uses 'demon', and the dialogue between Anders and Merrill goes out of it's way to repeatedly address the distinction between how Andrastians see Spirits and Demons while the Dalish see spirits.

No where in the Spirits and Demons section of WoT does it say the Dalish share the Andrastian view on the inhabitants of the Fade, or their terminology. It also addresses there are different "cultural views" on the Fade and it's inhabitants. The Qunari, for example, see it as the Land of the Dead.

Given that the Dalish see all spirits as dangerous, I don't see why you think the Elvhen see any spirit as beneficial. They avoid magic that involves spirits precisely because they view all spirits as dangerous. Seeing some spirits as beneficial is why the Chantry has Spirit Healers in the Chantry controlled Circles.

[EmperorSahlertz]

But...but I did! 

Then how come it is being ignored?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Then how come it is being ignored?

It probably got buried in one of the previous pages. As to why none of the rest of us thought of it, nobody can remember all of the lore at once. Though it does make the blurriness of the distinction more obvious.

[Lorien19]

Then how come it is being ignored?

That I cannot answer...

 

I'd say that their attitude towards spirits is different from that of the Dalish. After all the spirit healer specialization which requires the assistance of spirits from the fade and is freely practised by circle mages,proves that the unlike with demons,that the chantry isn't as distrustful towards non malevolent spirits.Otherwise such practises would be frowned upon,like it happens with the use of blood magic,which requires the assistance of demons.

Although spirit healers are usually watched by the templars more closely,than practitioners of any other school of magic due to their interaction with the fade.

Here it is though...Feels weird quoting myself...

[Jedi Master of Orion]

We have religious discussions between Anders and Merrill, and even codex entries, that address it's defined by Andrastian religious views. I'm not arguing the inception of the terms in human society, but how they are currently defined.

Merrill and WoT specifically use 'spirits' in addressing how the Dalish view the denizens of the Beyond; neither one uses 'demon', and the dialogue between Anders and Merrill goes out of it's way to repeatedly address the distinction between how Andrastians see Spirits and Demons while the Dalish see spirits.

No where in the Spirits and Demons section of WoT does it say the Dalish share the Andrastian view on the inhabitants of the Fade, or their terminology. It also addresses there are different "cultural views" on the Fade and it's inhabitants. The Qunari, for example, see it as the Land of the Dead.

Given that the Dalish see all spirits as dangerous, I don't see why you think the Elvhen see any spirit as beneficial. They avoid magic that involves spirits precisely because they view all spirits as dangerous. Seeing some spirits as beneficial is why the Chantry as Spirit Healers in the Chantry controlled Circles.

 

Alright perhaps I didn't explain myself as clearly as I could have. I'm not trying to say the Dalish don't believe all spirits are dangerous. I'm saying they believe there is a difference between demons and "benevolent" spirits but that both are still dangerous.

 

I made a small mistake, WoT uses the word "benevolent" instead of "beneficial," but the point is the distinction is not just the Andrastian perspective, it's a fairly universal perspective. It's the only one mentioned and nowhere does it say that the Dalish have different terms for them. Especially since "spirits" is the same word that everyone uses across cultures in the games anyway. And the word can apply to either all inhabitants of the fade or the non demonic ones.

 

The section on different cultural interpretations of the Fade does not say anything about the Dalish view on spirits. It only talks about their lore on Fen'Harel and their words for the Fade and the Black City.

[LobselVith8]

Alright perhaps I didn't explain myself as clearly as I could have. I'm not trying to say the Dalish don't believe all spirits are dangerous. I'm saying they believe there is a difference between demons and "benevolent" spirits and that both are still dangerous.

I made a small mistake, WoT uses the word "benevolent" instead of "beneficial," but the point is the distinction is not just the Andrastian perspective, it's a fairly universal perspective. It's the only one mentioned and nowhere does it say that the Dalish have different terms for them. Especially since "spirits" is the same word that everyone uses in the games anyway.

The section on different cultural interpretations of the Fade does not say anything about the Dalish view on spirits. It only talks about their lore on Fen'Harel and their words for the Fade and the Black City.

Considering that Gaider went out of his way to address that a fan "misremembered" in saying there was a conclusive dichotomy between Spirits and Demons, I'm not inclined to agree with you.

As for the WoT mention about Dalish and spirits, "Unlike other spellcasters, Dalish mages do not use any magic involving spirits, as they believe all spirits are dangerous." (page 104) It follows the same line of thought that's expressed by Merrill, who says all spirits are dangerous, and chastises Anders by saying there's no such thing as a good spirit.

[CybAnt1]

Dunno. Seems to me like an Animal Farm situation.

 

All spirits are dangerous, but some spirits (demons) are more dangerous than others. 

 

Dogs and wolves is a good analogy. Any dog can be dangerous. I think one could be more worried about wolves, though. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Technically the chance to be attacked by a dog far outstrips the chance of being attacked by a wolf 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Technically the chance to be attacked by a dog far outstrips the chance of being attacked by a wolf 

Yes, but we don't know that the analogy works that well.

[Peer of the Empire]

The two accounts can be reconciled very easily.  The elves are upset at human domination of the world, and attack at Red Crossing

[Mistic]

As for the WoT mention about Dalish and spirits, "Unlike other spellcasters, Dalish mages do not use any magic involving spirits, as they believe all spirits are dangerous." (page 104) It follows the same line of thought that's expressed by Merrill, who says all spirits are dangerous, and chastises Anders by saying there's no such thing as a good spirit.

 

No Spirit spells for Dalish mages!

 

Kiddding, kidding. Since no one gave a damn about your blood mage specialization (not even a spell, a whole specialization) in past games, I doubt there will be any kind of restriction for Dalish mages. After all, people can roleplay their characters however they want.

 

I'm more interested about a possible Keeper specialization, and if so, if there would be differences for Dalish and non Dalish mages trying to get it. Developers said that they would try to make specialization feel more important.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

It would make sense, in this context, for Dalish mages to be unable to start with Spirit spells. Being unable to learn them wouldn't make quite as much sense.