344 réponses à ce sujet

[Grieving Natashina]

History doesn't matter much when people are starving in the streets and living worse than my Mabari.

You're talking about the city elves.  Yes, they are both elven, but the Dalish are in much better shape.  According to lore, Dalish are in better shape, tend to live longer and have better health.  While there is some speculation that it's because they are, well, Dalish, most evidence points to good ol' fashioned country living as the reason why.

 

History is all the Dalish have left.  And as a player, I want to read more.  

 

If some folks don't want to learn any more about the Dalish, then they can ignore the lore and this thread.  Simple enough.  I predict that there will more volumes of the WoT books down the road, including stories about the Dalish.

[Grieving Natashina]

How it wasn't as i recall topic is about how elves started war so yep it was on topic...

 

3/10?

 

LoL tevinter slavers in alienage? besides im not troll but if you think so you don't have to response it is your call

This thread is about elves not being included in WoT.  It isn't just the war of the Dales, it's about any elven history not making into WoT.  Lob was concerned that would mean we would be forced into playing pointy-eared Andrastains.

 

Yes, I thought you were trolling.  Your attitude, your lack of spacing and your aggression towards the elves made it that way.  And you're using one example, the actions of Arl Howe out of all people, to show that folks don't care about the elves.  Since no one was allowed into the alienage, no one could know what was going on.  No one knew anything except a plague had hit the area.  And when other humans in Denerium found out about the slavers, they were horrified.

 

You might want to replay Origins.  

[Grieving Natashina]

Fair enough. I want to play through more Dalish stuff at least. Not necessarily read it, but something along the lines of Merrill or parts of our DAO Dalish Warden, where you slowly uncover old secrets. That's just my preference though. I like the idea of it kind of being a mystery to be unveiled.. rather than have clear answers handed to me (I don't think World of Thedas says much either way though).

I can see that.  

 

I'm a lore nerd.  If there's a great story/great game world, I want to learn more of it. 

[Grieving Natashina]

Well.. allow me to say that I think the truth may be more complicated on both sides. The Arcane Warrior quest leads me to think that way. Humans and Elves seem to have been closer than either side realizes now. Same with the Dalish origin.. just the fact that those ruins were human built, but with elven artifacts fascinated Tamlen. I think something that has been completely lost about both of their histories.

Thank you!  I'd like your post, but I'm out for the day.  I doubt that we'll ever find out the "truth," but I sure would like to know where those ruins came from.  I think the bitterness runs a lot deeper than just the Dale wars.  

[JoltDealer]

A very interesting post, which will no doubt lend itself to an intriguing discussion.  Unfortunately, I fear the Dalish perspective will often be treated as an "alternate version of the story" rather than the "truth."  From an in-universe perspective, the human version of the tale will always be presented more often because there are more humans.  With the Dalish being nomadic and reclusive -- who would probably rather kill a human than share their lore -- it would be incredibly unlikely that Thedosians would be familiar with their version of history.

 

Regardless, several have speculated that Arlathan will play a role in Dragon Age Inquisition.  If those individuals are right, then we may just learn the truth behind what really happened to the Ancient Elves.  My own personal theory is that Arlathan was built on the Well of Souls, which gave the Ancient Elves immortality due to the waters magical properties and that the war erupted from something regarding that. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

This thread is about elves not being included in WoT.  It isn't just the war of the Dales, it's about any elven history not making into WoT.  Lob was concerned that would mean we would be forced into playing pointy-eared Andrastains.

 

Yes, I thought you were trolling.  Your attitude, your lack of spacing and your aggression towards the elves made it that way.  And you're using one example, the actions of Arl Howe out of all people, to show that folks don't care about the elves.  Since no one was allowed into the alienage, no one could know what was going on.  No one knew anything except a plague had hit the area.

 

But they are included i don't have wot but judging by responses wot is wog they don't have to be included in poitive way deal with it they started war someone had to and thanks for that they started give us answers instead just going and going not explaining anything.

 

If they do rp ascpect correctly it shouldn't be problem if they will handle that like in da 2 you will get something like that. I always have attitude who try to be tough start brawl they lose and then they cry how world is unjust... agression? i would say i was rather opportunistic than agressive as i say i don't care about them as long they aren't on my way.But many peoples became rich because society was racist.Do i have mention that peoples not 1 kill elves in riots?  

[Reznore57]

I'm not too sure what's the problem here .

World of Thedas was a bit lacking when it comes to elves , but ...

If they let people create a Dalish Inquisitor , it means it has relevant Dalish content , no?

They already have the city elves afterall , and circle mages.

 

From what I've gathered races won't matter all the time , you won't get into a debate over Dalish culture at every corner.

But Mike Laidlaw said there is going to be some plot point where it matters , such as Qunari having big trouble with some quests.

We're probably going to go to the Dales , and one of the very first artwork was a Dalish camp .

So I wouldn't worry too much about Dalish culture.

The letdown might be when dealing with Chantry npc , you probably won't be able to go all "I don't care about your religion , filthy human " all the time.But like in DA:O , we'll probably have a couple of options depending on our pc background.

[Heimdall]

This is for Palidane as well as you, Lord.  I had a response typed for you Pali, but the Forum Gods saw fit to eat it.
 
If you have a problem with Lob, then that's your business.  I'm here to discussion the inclusion of elven lore in future EU material.
 
I read exactly what he said, so I'm not sure why you are asking me to read again.  Let me try this again: the devs will never reveal that anyone is right or wrong when it comes to the Dales.  Period.  Why are you so certain that another perspective will somehow make one group right or wrong?  I want to hear the other side of the story.  You fail at history forever if you think hearing the other side of the story is going to make one side right or wrong.  It's naive to think that and I've got no clue why you are insisting on this.
 
Oh and in this thread, Lob has never said that he thinks the elves are 100% right.  I don't know and i don't care what his views are in other places, I'm talking to him here and now.  He wants to see the other side, which is fine.
 
You're so eager to jump to the defense of your friend that you obviously ignored my post.

I read your post. The problem is, your post had nothing to do with the one you responded to. Nobody was saying that elaborating on the Dalish perspective would render the situation less grey. He was saying that revealing one perspective to be correct would, two separate things. I don't even know Palidane, but that much was clear to me.

My experience with Lob is that he will doubt every detail that doesn't conform to the elven perspective and vilify the chantry long before he'll concede to the possibility of any wrongdoing on the part of the elves. I speak only from that experience.

[Grieving Natashina]

But they are included i don't have wot but judging by responses wot is wog they don't have to be included in poitive way deal with it they started war someone had to and thanks for that they started give us answers instead just going and going not explaining anything.

 

If they do rp ascpect correctly it shouldn't be problem if they will handle that like in da 2 you will get something like that. I always have attitude who try to be tough start brawl they lose and then they cry how world is unjust... agression? i would say i was rather opportunistic than agressive as i say i don't care about them as long they aren't on my way.But many peoples became rich because society was racist.Do i have mention that peoples not 1 kill elves in riots?  

Without getting too deep into it, I'll just say that the Chantry could very well be lying.  We have one side of the story and it's the human one.  It's been shown time and time again that the Chantry favored human history and shuns anything that contradicts it.  They even took out the Canticle of Shartan, probably due to it's words about freedom.

 

 

 

 

 

Shartan 10 

 

At Shartan's word, the sky

Grew black with arrows.

At Our Lady's, ten thousand swords

Rang from their sheaths,

A great hymn rose over Valarian Fields gladly proclaiming:

Those who had been slaves were now free.

 

-Shartan 10:1, Dissonant Verse

 

 

Sorry, but any group that does that I'm not going to trust.  There's more to this story.

 

 

Plenty of elves in the riots were killed.  Again, you might want to replay the game.  Not only do the NPCs talk about how many people died due to the Rebellion, so does wiki:

 

 

 

Denerim Alienage, a filthy and dilapidated place. Many of its inhabitants were cut down during a rebellion in 9:30 Dragon.

 

 

Oh and you're still not on topic.  How does your post have to do with a player requesting to learn more about Dalish lore?

[TheKomandorShepard]

Without getting too deep into it, I'll just say that the Chantry could very well be lying.  We have one side of the story and it's the human one.  It's been shown time and time again that the Chantry favored human history and shuns anything that contradicts it.  They even took out the Canticle of Shartan, probably due to it's words about freedom.

 

Yep but now we know they didn't i won't talk about how chantry is clean but they aren't.But many said that wot is from devs prespective so you can't rly aruge with that they wrote there because it isn't chantry book or dalish book.Yep chantry is favoring humans is that rly that suprising but in that case they were right as they were when it comes that mages caused blight. It is good that devs started provide answers on certain topics instead holding players in dark...

[Grieving Natashina]

I read your post. The problem is, your post had nothing to do with the one you responded to. Nobody was saying that elaborating on the Dalish perspective would render the situation less grey. He was saying that revealing one perspective to be correct would, two separate things. I don't even know Palidane, but that much was clear to me.

My experience with Lob is that he will doubt every detail that doesn't conform to the elven perspective and vilify the chantry long before he'll concede to the possibility of any wrongdoing on the part of the elves. I speak only from that experience.

Um, yeah it was straight to him.   It has been requested that we learn more about the elves, and that there is another side to the story.   He immediately got into "right and wrong."   That by learning the elven side of the story, it'll be in black and white.

 

I don't think either of them is right.  I think there is a lot more than just two sides to this story.  However, I'd like to hear what the elves have to say.  Here's Palidane's comment.

 

 

 

Only one of them can be right, and if they ever resolved it, it would instantly make a morally grey, ambiguous issue black-and-white, which I don't think Bioware wants.

 

 

Again, I don't care about your beef with Lob.  That's your business.  He has not done that in this thread.  If it bothers you so much, then just stick him on ignore and be done with it.

[Grieving Natashina]

Yep but now we know they didn't i won't talk about how chantry is clean but they aren't.But many said that wot is from devs prespective so you can't rly aruge with that they wrote there because it isn't chantry book or dalish book.Yep chantry is favoring humans is that rly that suprising but in that case they were right as they were when it comes that mages caused blight. It is good that devs started provide answers on certain topics instead holding players in dark...

And this is why there is a request to learn more.  I'm not going to be satisfied with just one perspective and it's a fair request to see more Dalish lore in the EU.  I'm not sure why you have an issue with players wanting more information.  Considering that the WoT book has "Volume 1" written next to it, it's more than a safe assumption that we'll have more books in that series.

 

 Oh and shut up about the mages already.  That's off topic, inflammatory and using codex and opinion to claim fact.   Please don't bring up the mages right now.  No one has in this thread, except for you.  

[Heimdall]

Um, yeah it was straight to him.   It has been requested that we learn more about the elves, and that there is another side to the story.   He immediately got into "right and wrong."   That by learning the elven side of the story, it'll be in black and white.
 
I don't think either of them is right.  I think there is a lot more than just two sides to this story.  However, I'd like to hear what the elves have to say.
 

 
 
Again, I don't care about your beef with Lob.  That's your business.  He has not done that in this thread.  If it bothers you so much, then just stick him on ignore and be done with it.

This what he wrote:

I don't think they will ever tell us how the Exalted March started, because I think it's purpose is to be a source of friction between humans and elves.
"You knife-ears attacked us, unprovoked, even after we gave you your own nation!"
"Lies! You shemlen sent soldiers first, to try and force your religion on us! Why can't you leave us alone?"
 
Only one of them can be right, and if they ever resolved it, it would instantly make a morally grey, ambiguous issue black-and-white, which I don't think Bioware wants.

At no point did he say this would be the result of an expanded elven perspective. That is something your assigning to him. He was saying that we will likely never know which one is more accurate or accurate at all because knowing what really happened would reduce the moral ambiguity. Personally, I disagree, since I too doubt that either is 100% accurate, but he certainly isn't saying that expanding the elven perspective would cause this.

If you don't care, I'm not sure why you commented on it. I brought up Lob to explain why people seem to be arguing against expanding the elven perspective. Most of them aren't. They just don't like the default position some like Lob have to consider the Chantry the least trust worthy of all available sources where it disagrees with the elven narrative.

[TheKomandorShepard]

And this is why there is a request to learn more.  I'm not going to be satisfied with just one perspective and it's a fair request to see more Dalish lore in the EU.  I'm not sure why you have an issue with players wanting more information.  Considering that the WoT book has "Volume 1" written next to it, it's more than a safe assumption that we'll have more books in that series.

 

 Oh and shut up about the mages already.  That's off topic, inflammatory and using codex and opinion to claim fact.   Please don't bring up the mages right now.  No one has in this thread, except for you.  

 

Well perhaps i said it wrong from what i heard WoT is about facts dalish attacked orlais , tevinter attacked ferelden or orlais attacked ferelden.It wasn't about what chantry or dalish think it was about what happened that facts are on chantry benefit it is another matter.You saw both prespective in games and presented by characters but simple when elf says "humans started war" he is wrong someone has to be. 

 

About mages it was an exaple before legacy it was only bedtime story that chantry was telling you could say that was lie but finally they asnwered if chantry version was correct at least part of it same with elves starting war. I don't mind answering questions about events in-universe and even want it but someone have to be right or wrong even partly.So it wasn't about mages it was about exaple that happened be mages.

 

Simple it is hard find another example because to that point games and da products never provide answer on much topics in da history. 

[Grieving Natashina]

@Aesir You just dedicated your entire last paragraph talking about the OP.  Why haven't you put him on ignore?

 

If I misunderstood Palidane's post, then my apologizes.  I just wonder how he went from reading "We need an elven perspective" to "someone has to be right."

 

@Komander:  Well, that's your opinion.  We don't have any real information about the elves, and we haven't gotten their perspective.  Truthfully, they've barely mentioned the fall of the Dales at all, only that it's gone.  

 

Both sides could be wrong about this, Komander.  Without another witness, we might never know the truth.  I just want the other story.  Shoot, we know more about the dwarves than we do the elves!

 

About the "confirmation by the devs" about the mages, feel free to PM me with your source.   Please send me a link that directs me to where a dev said that the mages caused the Blights and it's 100% true.  Let's keep that part to PM.  It's off topic.

 

Well, I think I've said my piece.  I support your request, Lob.  Down the road, I'm hoping for a book on the Qunari and one on the dwarves.  Take care all.

[TEWR]

@Lob: No, not really.

[Heimdall]

@Aesir You just dedicated your entire last paragraph talking about the OP. Why haven't you put him on ignore?

Because occasionally I actually agree with him (And I do want an expansion on the elven side of the lore) it just isn't usually when he's talking about elves and the chantry.

[Grieving Natashina]

Because occasionally I actually agree with him (And I do want an expansion on the elven side of the lore) it just isn't usually when he's talking about elves and the chantry.

Eh, fair enough.  

[TheKomandorShepard]

@Komander:  Well, that's your opinion.  We don't have any real information about the elves, and we haven't gotten their perspective.  Truthfully, they've barely mentioned the fall of the Dales at all, only that it's gone.  

 

Both sides could be wrong about this, Komander.  Without another witness, we might never know the truth.  I just want the other story.  Shoot, we know more about the dwarves than we do the elves!

 

About the "confirmation by the devs" about the mages, feel free to PM me with your source.   Please send me a link that directs me to where a dev said that the mages caused the Blights and it's 100% true.  Let's keep that part to PM.  It's off topic.

 

Well, I think I've said my piece.  I support your request, Lob.  Down the road, I'm hoping for a book on the Qunari and one on the dwarves.  Take care all.

Hmm we don't what about 2 dalish clans and alienages add to that elven companions? We got a lot of elven perspective when not rly much from chantry perspective on that matter (about elves) outside codex thats all i can recall.1 fact is on chantry advantage i don't see problem i doubt that many that scream how horrible move it was would have problem if they wrote that chantry was 1 who attacked first... 

 

So who attacked first dales it seems and it isn't something that chantry , dales or other character in-universe said it is from guys that are creating da universe or at least was accepted by them.If dg said that petrice was previously prostitute we would have to accept it .

 

Well it was said by corrypheus magister that went to the fade and become darkspawn and that is last thing guy renember... even anders who was opposing idea that mages caused blights and it was chantry propaganda had to say they were right in that matter.

[LobselVith8]

I think Elves need to be dealt with more on present issues. Not past ones. What does history matter? They can't even attain present equality. Let alone past superiority.

And by this I mean, I'd like to see Elves progress to a better foothold with lands and political say-so. Something that actually transfers from game to game, and is reflected in the world, unlike the "boons" of DAO.

There are factors that contribute to the nomadic lifestyle of the Elvhen. The Dalish follow a religion that has been criminalized in Andrastian lands by the Chantry, the People have free mages among them who practice non-Circle sanctioned magic; aside from Merrill noting that templars pursue the clans (which is why Ariane protected her clan from a templar), some Andrastians want to convert the "heathens" because they think it's the only way to bring back the Maker, which is why the Sabrae clan dealt with threats of violence and intimidation against them for following the Creators.

Trying to establish political ties with kingdoms that view you as a criminal for your religion alone is easier said than done. The current situation with the Orlesian civil war and the Mage-Templar War may allow for the opportunity to change all that. I think progressive leaders like Anora and Alistair would be more than willing, especially with some in Orlais wanting to reclaim their "former province"; they can use all the allies they can get.

[wcholcombe]

OK, seriously Lobs whole point with this thread had all of nothing to do with Dalish vs. Chantry or who was actually right or wrong, I am sorry if my initial post contributed to the side tracking.

Anyway, no Lob I don't think WoT means that the dalish will suddenly abandon their point of view on historical occurrences, nor would I expect them to.Dalish inquisitors should still have their cultural view points.