344 réponses à ce sujet

[Master Warder Z_]

OK, seriously Lobs whole point with this thread had all of nothing to do with Dalish vs. Chantry or who was actually right or wrong, I am sorry if my initial post contributed to the side tracking.

Anyway, no Lob I don't think WoT means that the dalish will suddenly abandon their point of view on historical occurrences, nor would I expect them to.Dalish inquisitors should still have their cultural view points.

 

Wrong as they may be.

[Grieving Natashina]

And here we go again.  Like a Merry-Go-Round from hell.

 

[Master Warder Z_]

And here we go again.

 

 

Such is any discussion with Lob about the Dalish Master race.

[Grieving Natashina]

Please delete. Not worth it.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Quick question: do we know that WoT is an unbiased, Word Of God work? Or is it something like the Codexes, written by NPCs from their points of view?

 

Edit: This might have been covered previously, but come on... eight pages.

 

 

 

World of Thedas, page 6. Mike Laidlaw, Creative Director introduction to the book: "Races, Politics, nations, it's all here: ruthlessly fact checked, beautifully illustrated, and artfully arranged."

World of Thedas, page 7. Legend of Symbols used in the book and page layout: "Though written in-world, the volume's main text is one, objective, voice. Portions of the text are spotlighted for readers who prefer to browse."

How much more direct does the book have to be regarding the matter of objectivity?

[wcholcombe]

Wrong as they may be.

Z we usually tend to agree, and I have been frustrated in my fair share of discussions with Lob, but he had a legitimate concern in this post.  If WoT stated something that said Templars are wrong and mages should be allowed to run around free through the daisies, I wouldn't want the game to suddenly reflect that in attitude of characters or players, it would be poor game management and design.

 

The idea of who actually started it really doesn't matter in game for a war that was centuries ago.

 

Look at our own modern history; you can't get the Japanese and the Chinese to agree on who did what to whom in WW2, the Germans don't outright deny the holocaust, but don't make a point of talking about it much, as an American I have little interest discussing our imperialism in other countries and more or less domination of the western hemisphere.  Its a natural tendency and I would expect the Dalish, especially since they lost the Dales as a result, to have a very much in the right we were attacked attitude towards it.

[TK514]

And here we go again. Like a Merry-Go-Round from hell.

Mesmerizing.

OK, seriously Lobs whole point with this thread had all of nothing to do with Dalish vs. Chantry or who was actually right or wrong, I am sorry if my initial post contributed to the side tracking.
Anyway, no Lob I don't think WoT means that the dalish will suddenly abandon their point of view on historical occurrences, nor would I expect them to.Dalish inquisitors should still have their cultural view points.

And this says it well. I expect any Inquisitor to be able to make observations and express opinions relevant and appropriate to their background. I would further expect NPCs to be able to do the same. So, for instance, if we run into another Dalish Clan, I suspect they will say the same Dalish things and express the same Dalish views we have seen previously, with a Dalish PC having the option to agree.

[Hellion Rex]

Lobsel, I seriously think your fears are unfounded.

[Master Warder Z_]

Z we usually tend to agree, and I have been frustrated in my fair share of discussions with Lob, but he had a legitimate concern in this post.  If WoT stated something that said Templars are wrong and mages should be allowed to run around free through the daisies, I wouldn't want the game to suddenly reflect that in attitude of characters or players, it would be poor game management and design.

 

As i said the day prior i have nothing against the prospect of the elves who descend from those hillbillies to share their incorrect perspective on history, religion and what have you.

 

I just don't want the game to treat their version as correct however, when it obviously isn't.

 

Nothing more, Nothing less.

[Grieving Natashina]

Mesmerizing.

More so than the fall of the Dales debate. 

[Master Warder Z_]

More so than the fall of the Dales debate. 

...Watching paint dry is more entertaining then going back and forth for several hours.

 

Sad thing is? WOT supports the Chantry conclusion, Should be the end of the debate but it isn't.

[wcholcombe]

...Watching paint dry is more entertaining then going back and forth for several hours.

 

Sad thing is? WOT supports the Chantry conclusion, Should be the end of the debate but it isn't.

But that isn't what Lob is debating.

 

He is debating the fact that an in game character who doesn't have access to Word of God, would still be expected to have his cultural viewpoints and views.  You keep thinking this is a debate about who is right or wrong.

[Grieving Natashina]

But that isn't what Lob is debating.

 

He is debating the fact that an in game character who doesn't have access to Word of God, would still be expected to have his cultural viewpoints and views.  You keep thinking this is a debate about who is right or wrong.

Bingo.  Thank you wchol.

[Master Warder Z_]

But that isn't what Lob is debating.

 

He is debating the fact that an in game character who doesn't have access to Word of God, would still be expected to have his cultural viewpoints and views.  You keep thinking this is a debate about who is right or wrong.

 

 Erm.

 

No i am fairly certain that was what Lob was debating on the premise of WOT not including said perspective.

 

And that said if that was his intent i ultimately have no problem if it, i just don't want the game to treat it as automatically correct to soothe the elven ego.

 

I believe i have been clear on both points the entire thread.

[Grieving Natashina]

Not the point of his thread though, a fact you keep choosing to ignore.  

 

As far as the whole Chantry/Elf mess...

 

 

and to each their own.

[dragonflight288]

I'm interested in learning more about the ancient Dalish or the elves of Arlathan. It would be fascinating if we found ruins of a community that had elves and humans living freely and side-by-side, and maybe even if humans helped the elves against Tevinter, but their aid was lost in the passage of time. 

 

Or maybe a Dalish clan that actually has written records that go back that far, journals, chronicles of the war, and maybe see some Orlesian records of that war in codex form or something, like the account of a Chevalier during the war itself. 

 

All I want is more information. Perspectives on people and groups can change with more information.

 

Slightly off topic here, but I'm hoping I can tie in my meaning by using him as an example. Loghain. Before I let him live and took him back to Ostagar with Wynne and heard their debate about the battle and play the blame game, listened to his banter with my companions and so on, and spoke with him, the only perspective of him I actually had was Alistair's opinion (which is filled with blame and survivor's guilt,) and in-game scenes like him hiring the Crows per the advice of Howe, and the gossipers telling me how progress with the war was going. 

 

By sparing him, talking to him, I gained a perspective I previously lacked, and actually saw that his Regency, his call for arms (even if it was done poorly) were all legitimate. His daughter was the queen and she did appoint him as the regent. She had been queen for five years. Everything he did up to that first Landsmeet was legitimate. Then the civil war started and then things started going south for him and all of Ferelden. I also got to hear him chew Wynne out for being a hypocrite about Ostagar as she pretty much accuses him of being a traitor for doing the exact same thing she did. 

 

He's still pretty dang ruthless and probably deserves death for things like hiring a blood mage to poison eamon, selling elves into slavery and so on, but the new information gave me a new perspective and I gained a healthy respect for the man despite the fact that I didn't like him.

 

Now back on topic. I would love more information on the elves, their background, and the war between the Dales and Orlais as I feel more information can add perspectives we currently lack. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

But that isn't what Lob is debating.

 

He is debating the fact that an in game character who doesn't have access to Word of God, would still be expected to have his cultural viewpoints and views.  You keep thinking this is a debate about who is right or wrong.

And that is a ludicrous conclusion to reach, or fear to cultivate, from the fact that WoT doesn't really address EITHER faction's viewpoint, but it objectively states what happened.

We as the readers of WoT are told what happened, but the world of Thedas (the game world) does not know, so why would the knowledge we as players hold, translate into the game world?

[wcholcombe]

I'm interested in learning more about the ancient Dalish or the elves of Arlathan. It would be fascinating if we found ruins of a community that had elves and humans living freely and side-by-side, and maybe even if humans helped the elves against Tevinter, but their aid was lost in the passage of time. 

 

Or maybe a Dalish clan that actually has written records that go back that far, journals, chronicles of the war, and maybe see some Orlesian records of that war in codex form or something, like the account of a Chevalier during the war itself. 

 

All I want is more information. Perspectives on people and groups can change with more information.

 

Slightly off topic here, but I'm hoping I can tie in my meaning by using him as an example. Loghain. Before I let him live and took him back to Ostagar with Wynne and heard their debate about the battle and play the blame game, listened to his banter with my companions and so on, and spoke with him, the only perspective of him I actually had was Alistair's opinion (which is filled with blame and survivor's guilt,) and in-game scenes like him hiring the Crows per the advice of Howe, and the gossipers telling me how progress with the war was going. 

 

By sparing him, talking to him, I gained a perspective I previously lacked, and actually saw that his Regency, his call for arms (even if it was done poorly) were all legitimate. His daughter was the queen and she did appoint him as the regent. She had been queen for five years. Everything he did up to that first Landsmeet was legitimate. Then the civil war started and then things started going south for him and all of Ferelden. I also got to hear him chew Wynne out for being a hypocrite about Ostagar as she pretty much accuses him of being a traitor for doing the exact same thing she did. 

 

He's still pretty dang ruthless and probably deserves death for things like hiring a blood mage to poison eamon, selling elves into slavery and so on, but the new information gave me a new perspective and I gained a healthy respect for the man despite the fact that I didn't like him.

 

Now back on topic. I would love more information on the elves, their background, and the war between the Dales and Orlais as I feel more information can add perspectives we currently lack. 

While interesting it is doubtful.  The elves of Arlathan were enslaved for 1000 years by Tevinter and their culture was so destroyed that they even lost their language.  That said, no one has ever really explained where the dalish "records" and such come from.  The references to Arlathan's destruction vary from it was destroyed to it was buried/sunk into the earth.  While I wouldn't think we would discover something that has been lost for at least 2 milennia, I guess it is possible.  The do keep referring to Arlathan as the "lost city of Arlathan" which in RPG rules, referring to something as Lost almost always means it will be found...

[wcholcombe]

And that is a ludicrous conclusion to reach, or fear to cultivate, from the fact that WoT doesn't really address EITHER faction's viewpoint, but it objectively states what happened.

We as the readers of WoT are told what happened, but the world of Thedas (the game world) does not know, so why would the knowledge we as players hold, translate into the game world?

While lob admittedly has a VERY pro dalish outlook on the game, his true concern in all this was stated in his first posts, I am as guilty as others of honing in on what else he mentioned, and well the fact that it is Lob and we all have our natural reactions to each other at this point, to the exclusion of his true question:

 

"Given that, I don't necessarily think that it means that the developers made a choice between the two historical accounts. With Inquisition still in development, I'm honestly hoping that the Dalish Inquisitor isn't simply a re-skinned Andrastian, but that he's a culturally (and potentially religiously) different person. A protagonist who says 'the Beyond' instead of the Fade, who sees 'spirits' instead of 'Spirits and Demons', who was taught a different historical account about the fall of the Dales than the humans and the elves in Andrastian lands, and who might revere Shartan while Andrastians revere Andraste.

 

As someone who is interested in the prospect of playing as one of the Elvhen, part of my interest is in the fact that they are different than their Andrastian counterparts. Their view of spirits, the Beyond, their faith in the Creators, their struggle to build a future and maintain a heritage that was nearly lost to slavery and invasion, and surviving on a continent where their faith in their religion alone is criminalized in human lands (not to mention the existence of free mages in the clan). Their different historical account about the fall of the Dales was interesting as well, and I'm hoping that the different points of view and cultural heritage is maintained for the Dalish Inquisitor."

 

His true question was indeed regarding a concern that the dalish viewpoint would be changed by what was reflected in WoT.

[Cainhurst Crow]

But that isn't what Lob is debating.

 

He is debating the fact that an in game character who doesn't have access to Word of God, would still be expected to have his cultural viewpoints and views.  You keep thinking this is a debate about who is right or wrong.

 

Why bring up world of thedas if his concern has nothing to do with what's actually printed in the book, and only about in character opinions?

[Heimdall]

Why bring up world of thedas if his concern has nothing to do with what's actually printed in the book, and only about in character opinions?

He thinks WoT tells only half the story. I don't understand why he would think that indicates the Dalish version of events would evaporate in DAI though.

[wcholcombe]

Why bring up world of thedas if his concern has nothing to do with what's actually printed in the book, and only about in character opinions?

 

 

He thinks WoT tells only half the story. I don't understand why he would think that indicates the Dalish version of events would evaporate in DAI though.

 

He was concerned if this meant a shift in gameplay presentation.  It was a concern he had, it isn't any more unlikely a concern than "why isn't Allistare married yet" or "My warden's LI better not be married to someone else or I will have a hissy fit" concerns.

[frankf43]

Personally I don't see the Chantry and its Templars getting involved in a boarder war between two sovereign states, heck they wouldn't even join the fight against the blight in Origins if you allow the mages to live. But I can see them starting an 'Exalted March' because the Dalish  were refusing to follow the Andrastian religion and more importantly allowed mages to wonder freely.

 

Given that I am more inclined to come down on the side of the Dalish point of view on the start of the war.

[LobselVith8]

He thinks WoT tells only half the story. I don't understand why he would think that indicates the Dalish version of events would evaporate in DAI though.

It's mostly an issue of the brevity of the Dalish views, from the condensed account of the fall of the Dales to the view of the Dalish seeing all spirits as dangerous being relegated to a single line: "Unlike other spellcasters, Dalish mages do not use any magic involving spirits, as they believe all spirits are dangerous." (page 104) The nuances concerning the differences in how the Dalish see spirits is addressed in the religious discussions between Anders and Merrill, but it's omitted from a book that's supposed to showcase the World of Thedas and it's inhabitants.

Even the section on the Elven Religion is even oddly interrupted by the sudden inclusion of the Chantry hierarchy in mid-sentence about the Creators.

Most of the information about the fall of the Dales is omitted as well, as you can tell from the condensed description of the fall of the Dales:

"Relations with the humans remained hostile, and the elven rejection of the Maker became cause for Chantry ire. The elves founded a legion, known as the Emerald Knights, to protect their land from human intrusion. Tensions mounted, and when a small elven raiding party attacked the human village of Red Crossing, the Chantry called an Exalted March to crush the elven people and conquer the Dales in a series of brutal battles." (page 28)

This is why I made the thread. I understand the likely difficulties that went into making the book, but I was just hoping the sparse information wasn't reflective of the Dalish Inquisitor's views being diluted to accommodate multiple voiced protagonists and an expansive trek from Ferelden to Orlais, since I know Andrastian human is the default. For example, it would be nice if the Dalish Inquisitor called it 'the Beyond', instead of calling it 'the Fade'.