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OGB and the alternative choice


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#1
Jerrybnsn

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So as I understand it the OGB will only be addressed in DAI if you did the dark ritual. Which leads to the question of how bioware will handle the alternative to there not being an OGB in the storyline.  Will it be a noticable part that effects the game, or just a minor cameo easter egg, or conversation tidbit that can or cannot be mention. Either way, it will be interesting to see how they handle this.

 

 I have to say that I'm kind of surprised that the OGB was not canon on whether you did the ritual or not.  The moment when you find out that you or any other Grey Warden would die upon killing the arch-demon, and with Morrigan revealing her true intentions and her offer, was the classic twist in a story just before the climax.   For such a momentous revelation and important part of the story development, I just wouldn't expect a major plot point to be dismissed so easily with the decision by the player. I just wouldn't have thought that her "saving something so noble", as she put it, would have been abandoned so easily from the dismissal by the Warden.  Because of all the characters, Morrigan's seemed  beyond the normal character developement of the others in that her character had a bigger purpose, as if she had her own agenda to accomplish and only had need for the Warden so far.

 

The OGB, to me, was such an awesome twist to the story that I figured would be brought forward through the series one way or another.  Especially with Morrigan's sly smile that appears on her face when she leaves after the Warden has turned her down for the Dark Ritual.  That was the "oh, oh!  She's up to something" moment.  Why would the writers have her do that at such a point?  To me, the use of such a common troupe such a sly smile, is to tell the audience something is going to be done by that character,  to be found out at a later part of the story.  Slept with Ridoran?  I don't know.  She didn't say it was impossible for the ritual to succeed with him, just harder.  And what if the saving of the Grey Warden's soul wasn't really part of the saving of the Old God' soul?  What if she was just offering it to the Warden out of compassion, or to sweeten the deal to persuade the Warden to agree?  Through conversations with her, she has admitted that she would lie to get what she wants.  And she accused the Dog of manipulating people to get what he wants, and stated she does it too. So why couldn't she have been lying to the Warden to get what she wants.

 

So anyway, I hope that Morrigan's alternative plan concerning the OGB will be reveled in the next game, and not hand waved over by ignoring it or saying,  "You didn't see any sly smile from Morrigan, and these aren't the droids you're looking for.  Move along."



#2
The Elder King

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....you're forgetting that the Warden died if he didn't do the DR? The reason he died is because the archdemon's soul when tinside him, and he died. If the Urthemiel's soul went into another baby, he wouldn't have died.
Beside, Gaider already said that the OGB will appear only if you made the DR. In US, there won't be any OGB.
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#3
legbamel

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They can't make the OGB canon precisely because it's such a momentous decision in the game. Having that choice rendered moot in a later game would ****** off a lot of fans and wreck the ending of DA:O for people who play DA:I first and then go back for the earlier games.
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#4
Jerrybnsn

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The choice wasn't exactly to save the Old God's soul or not, but whether "you" would help save the old god's soul.  She did state that she didn't need you but was offering it too you.  If it was Ridoran that she used, it was to him that the spell was effected to save and no other Grey Warden.  Which he plummeted to his death after striking the first blow that downed the arch-demon.  And how much of her explanation to get you to agree was she telling the truth?  What was the point of establishing that she would lie and manipulate to get what she wants if they weren't going to use it at some point?

 

So the decision you made not to help with saving the Old God's soul would be respected.  Your player choice was respected; however, that wouldn't have any effect on whether Morrigan was able to carry out her agenda or not through some other means.  You just wouldn't be the father or Loghain or Alistair for that matter.  Of course, how would you know that she carried out her plan.  You wouldn't, until...da da dun!

 

But to ignore Morrigan's agenda weakens her character in my opinion if such an important endeavor is just abandoned when there are alternatives.  It just doesn't seem like Morrigan would give up so easily.


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#5
Jack Druthers

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Must admit, though, I've never looked into the subject.  I am interested what Morrigan does with the non-OGB. Raise it? Kill it? Leave it on the Chantry doorstep? Maybe give it away?  Maybe the couple from the crater want another kid?



#6
Herr Uhl

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The choice wasn't exactly to save the Old God's soul or not, but whether "you" would help save the old god's soul.  She did state that she didn't need you but was offering it too you.  If it was Ridoran that she used, it was to him that the spell was effected to save and no other Grey Warden.  Which he plummeted to his death after striking the first blow that downed the arch-demon.  And how much of her explanation to get you to agree was she telling the truth?  What was the point of establishing that she would lie and manipulate to get what she wants if they weren't going to use it at some point.

 

So the decision you made not to help with saving the Old God's soul would be respected.  Your player choice was respected; however, that wouldn't have any effect on whether Morrigan was able to carry out her agenda or not through some other means.  You just wouldn't be the father or Loghain or Alistair for that matter.  Of course, how would you know that she carried out her plan.  You wouldn't, until...da da dun!

 

But to ignore Morrigan's agenda weakens her character in my opinion if such an important endeavor is just abandoned when there are alternatives.  It just doesn't seem like Morrigan would give up so easily.

But in that case your warden, Loghain or Alistair died of placebo.


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#7
Jerrybnsn

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But in that case your warden, Loghain or Alistair died of placebo.

I don't understand.  Could you explain a bit on that?



#8
Spectre slayer

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There is no alternative plan for the ogb, she will not sleep with Riordan as he's to tainted or any other warden and she has no alternative way of making the ogb since when you refuse the ritual Urthemeil's soul enters the warden that took the final blow via the taint and the clash destroys both souls.

Also Gaider already shot all of these down, if you refuse the ritual there is no ogb, she has no alternative of doing so, the ogb can't and won't ever become canon.

Lol and no to your second post aswell, she wasn't lying and Gaider refuted all that sorry.

David Gaider
May I put this to rest?

If the player didn't do the Dark Ritual, or didn't get Alistair or Loghain to do it, then it wasn't done.

Had Morrigan figured out some way to otherwise do it, then nobody would have died when the Archdemon was slain.

If she had some way to go about getting the Archdemon's soul without resorting to the Dark Ritual as she proposed it, then why did she go through all the trouble?

David Gaider
I'm not sure where the "but even if they refuse, the other Grey Wardens of the world may not have the same resolve..." comes from.

Speculation on the part of the article writer, perhaps? Regardless, if the player refused the Dark Ritual then it was refused.

There is no Old God Baby


David Gaider
The problem here is that people have a strange idea of what "canon" means-- almost a paranoia, really.
We have a default canon, which applies if you import nothing.

So if someone comes to DAI with no import of previous games, they get a certain set of previous decisions being presumed-- and those tend to be ones that don't promise future content.

The Warden of DAO is dead, because why would someone who's importing no save (and is possibly a brand new player) care about their Warden still being alive and involved in the plot?

There is no OGB, because why would that person care about Morrigan having a child from some game they possibly never even played?

As for things which don't involve future content, like the sex and race of the Warden, yes-- those we just decided on at some point.

So the default Warden who died was a female Dalish elf.

A default should not concern you in the slightest, however, if you intend on importing-- which I assume everyone who's hanging around on these forums a year before release likely is.

How we'll do that importing is the subject of a future reveal, it's true, but I'm uncertain why a fan would be concerned about the default settings of a version of the story they'll never use.

And if your version of the definition of canon is "it overrides my previous story", then rest assured that will not happen.

The story may not go exactly as you want/expect (as in Leliana being alive, if you killed her in DAO), but that's not the same as those previous actions being treated as if they never happened at all.

If we ever decide to move Dragon Age over to one canonical story in-between games, I'm almost positive we would give lots of advance notice to allow fans time to rend garments, burn effigies, and send cupcakes.

Until that point, just wait for news on the import feature.


David Gaider
There are some people saying on the forums that they expect the Dark Ritual to be the focus of an entire game, like "Oh, I think I should be playing the Old God baby and everything should revolve around that."

Again, with that we have to make a completely different game for the person who did the Dark Ritual or didn't do the Dark Ritual, and we can't do that.

So if you did the Dark Ritual, if and when we brought Morrigan back, you should get something extra for having done the Dark Ritual, for having imported it, and it affects your game in some important facet.

It may not be as important as some people like, but it can be important, and provided we have the time to create the content...ideally there would be unique content, as much of it as possible for these variations.


David Gaider
If Morrigan had a child, then any involvement of Morrigan in the plot would need to take that child into account.

And, yes, that would have to be more than an off-hand mention by her of having a child stowed away in some extra-dimensional cupboard.


David Gaider
Hmm. How can I put this?

The results of the Dark Ritual, if it occurred in DAO, will have more than a passing reference in DAI.

Beyond that, you shall have to wait and see


David Gaider
"While I won't discuss how the Dark Ritual decision will affect future games, I can say (and have said) that the choice won't be ignored-- it's pretty fundamental.

So Morrigan will have a son only if she either romanced a male Warden or if the Dark Ritual was performed... and in only the latter case will that son be the so-called OGB.

David Gaider
Whether how the Dark Ritual affects future games is considered sufficient is a different matter completely. Considering that some people have expressed that the existence of the OGB should be the entire plot around which such a game revolves, it's perhaps unlikely.

That kind of expectation can't be helped. Regardless, the choice will neither be ignored nor made into a footnote".

David Gaider
Loose plot threads do not constitute an entire story, short of those people who feel their personal plot thread of "I had a child with Morrigan" or "I'm ruling Ferelden at Alistair's side" should be the basis for an entire game, regardless of whatever anyone else did

David Gaider
If you mean the so-called "Old God Baby" will exist, regardless of whether the player took the Dark Ritual decision in DAO or not-- I can categorically say that this assumption is incorrec

As you can now see those are all from Gaider, there seems to be a limited amount of quotes you can have in your posts anyway here's a link where some quotes from Gaider I posted previously.

http://social.biowar...2817/4#17551213

The ogb isn't going to be all that important and his position as a main character rests solely on the timeline which is 10-11 years and if you choose to do the ritual, the other child will be factored in but he won't have much of a role either.
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#9
TK514

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Yeah, no getting around the fact that the Warden dies of soul overdose if you don't perform the DR. So no Old God soul to fill up Morrigan's baby husk.
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#10
Kali073

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I can understand why the old god baby isn't canon but I really wish it was. I find the old Tevinter gods very interesting and I would love to see what happened to the old god reborn as an untainted human, however, because it isn't canon it probably won't receive the attention I want it to get in DA:I.


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#11
Herr Uhl

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I don't understand.  Could you explain a bit on that?

The reason that you die when killing the archdemon is that the archdemon soul is absorbed into your own body and both souls are destroyed in the process. So what killed you if you didn't absorb the soul?



#12
Master Warder Z_

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Yeah, no getting around the fact that the Warden dies of soul overdose if you don't perform the DR. So no Old God soul to fill up Morrigan's baby husk.

 

Excellent way of explaining it.



#13
Uccio

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OGB should be canon.
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#14
Master Warder Z_

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OGB should be canon.

 

That's your perspective.

 

And i am glad Bioware doesn't share it.

 

Given i have never created that abomination to begin with; Would be pissed with that choice just being casually overridden.


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#15
Jack Druthers

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I just thought: We've gone through all these games worried about one body having two spirits - possession.  At one stage you were falling over possessed things and people, and now then it turns out that the soul overdose kills! It twists the melon slightly.   Is it possible for two bodies to only have one spirit?



#16
Master Warder Z_

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I just thought: We've gone through all these games worried about one body having two spirits - possession.  At one stage you were falling over possessed things and people, and now then it turns out that the soul overdose kills! It twists the melon slightly.   Is it possible for two bodies to only have one spirit?

 

I honestly don't know.

 

I doubt it personally.

 

Abominations in the traditional sense seem to be singularly controlled by Demons, their spirit literally controlling their husk from the fade.

 

Wynne and Ander's however suffered something worse in my eye.

 

Their personalities, their spirits actually merged with their fade spirits. End result you have the ending of that person and the creation of whatever the spirit wants it be.



#17
Jerrybnsn

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They can't make the OGB canon precisely because it's such a momentous decision in the game. Having that choice rendered moot in a later game would ****** off a lot of fans and wreck the ending of DA:O for people who play DA:I first and then go back for the earlier games.

What would ***** off the fans more?  Having Morrigan carry out her own agenda despite your decision not to get involved?  Or having such an important part of the story, the twist before the climax, have no impact at all on future iterations?  Making the OGB nothing more than a small cameo appearance; or ignoring the plot point of Morrigan's sly smile after being refused seems to be the worst option.

 

The player choice would be respected either way.  You are not the father, nor Alistair or Loghain.  How are you being disrespected?  Are you going back to all your old girlfriends who have children and say, "How could you?" as well?


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#18
Master Warder Z_

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What would ***** off the fans more?  Having Morrigan carry out her own agenda despite your decision not to get involved?  Or having such an important part of the story, the twist before the climax, have no impact at all on future iterations?  Making the OGB nothing more than a small cameo appearance; or ignoring the plot point of Morrigan's sly smile after being refused seems to be the worst option.

 

The player choice would be respected either way.  You are not the father, nor Alistair or Loghain.  How are you being disrespected?  Are you going back to all your old girlfriends who have children and say, "How could you?" as well?

 

Ultimately Bioware has decided that if it didn't occur, it didn't occur.

 

Respect their viewpoint.

 

Besides maybe they have something different planned for the souls of the archdemons and they may need that one.



#19
Artemis Leonhart

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The choice wasn't exactly to save the Old God's soul or not, but whether "you" would help save the old god's soul.  She did state that she didn't need you but was offering it too you.  If it was Ridoran that she used, it was to him that the spell was effected to save and no other Grey Warden.  Which he plummeted to his death after striking the first blow that downed the arch-demon.  And how much of her explanation to get you to agree was she telling the truth?  What was the point of establishing that she would lie and manipulate to get what she wants if they weren't going to use it at some point?

 

So the decision you made not to help with saving the Old God's soul would be respected.  Your player choice was respected; however, that wouldn't have any effect on whether Morrigan was able to carry out her agenda or not through some other means.  You just wouldn't be the father or Loghain or Alistair for that matter.  Of course, how would you know that she carried out her plan.  You wouldn't, until...da da dun!

 

But to ignore Morrigan's agenda weakens her character in my opinion if such an important endeavor is just abandoned when there are alternatives.  It just doesn't seem like Morrigan would give up so easily.

No, the dark ritual, if performed saves any warden who kills the archdemon, not only the warden who did the ritual. Proof of this is if the warden is either female or a male who doesn't want to di the ritual himself for whatever reason and makes Alistair/Loghain do it: once the ritual is done and it's time to slay the archdemon, the warden could leave Alistair/Loghain at Denerim's gates, thus leading to the warden personally striking the archdemon. Guess what? The warden stays alive. If what you said was true, then the warden should have died, because he/she wasn't the one who performed the ritual, Alistair/Loghain was the one.
So no, the dark ritual, if performed saves the life of any warden who gives the killing strike to the Archdemon.


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#20
Jack Druthers

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Another thing that I've been thinking about is Cailan.  Why would the "state" of Cailan's body be a factor that is imported.  Is there any  other evidence apart from Leandra of soul transfer.  I assume that's what happened with her.



#21
Jerrybnsn

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The whole point of asking why you would just hand wave Morrigan's agenda of you decided not to do the DR, is that that twist was one of the most memorable in gaming history.  And it was, imo, just to good of a plot to pass up for future iteration.  If they want to just forget it fine, but I think they could have had an epic story with that alone instead of turning it into a small cameo appearance.

 

But the whole "my player choice was not recognize" if she succeeds without you doesn't have any foundation.



#22
Spectre slayer

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What would ***** off the fans more? Having Morrigan carry out her own agenda despite your decision not to get involved? Or having such an important part of the story, the twist before the climax, have no impact at all on future iterations? Making the OGB nothing more than a small cameo appearance; or ignoring the plot point of Morrigan's sly smile after being refused seems to be the worst option. The player choice would be respected either way. You are not the father, nor Alistair or Loghain. How are you being disrespected? Are you going back to all your old girlfriends who have children and say, "How could you?" as well?


That's your opinion and viewpoint based on nothing that you cling to despite the overwhelming evidence against it including everything the devs and Gaider have said some of which are in my post, he won't ever become canon and if we ever have canon story it will not be the dark ritual it will be the ultimate sacrifice which is what their own canon is.

#23
Jaulen

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What would ***** off the fans more?  Having Morrigan carry out her own agenda despite your decision not to get involved?  Or having such an important part of the story, the twist before the climax, have no impact at all on future iterations?  Making the OGB nothing more than a small cameo appearance; or ignoring the plot point of Morrigan's sly smile after being refused seems to be the worst option.

 

The player choice would be respected either way.  You are not the father, nor Alistair or Loghain.  How are you being disrespected?  Are you going back to all your old girlfriends who have children and say, "How could you?" as well?

 

Well.....considering that the only GWs in Ferelden and Denerim at the time are your Warden, Riordan, and Alistair/Loghain.....I'd be MORE pissed as a fan if BW decided, "Hey, we gave you this HUGE decision to make....but it really didn't matter."

 

And after Morrigan telling you to the only way to survive killing the archdemon was to get her pregnant on that very night.....what do you think most Wardens would do who turned her down......only to kill the archdemon and still be alive? My wardens that opted to not do the DR for various reasons would hunt Morrigan and her demon-spawn to the ends of the world and back again to kill her and the child.

 

And WHY does every single game have to be about Morrigan? People were having the same spazzes with DA:II....."Why isn't Morrigan around....why isn't the OGB mentioned?" Why would Hawke, who wasn't even in Ferelden at the time of the DR, and who had never met Morrigan or Alistair/Warden up to that point, even care or even get the significance of the OGB or the DR choice? Same with the Inquisitor.....and what......yes Morrigan is in DA:I.....our Inquisitor will meet her.....Do you just expect her to say "Hey Inquisitor...I have a demon baby!"


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#24
nightscrawl

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No, the dark ritual, if performed saves any warden who kills the archdemon, not only the warden who did the ritual. Proof of this is if the warden is either female or a male who doesn't want to di the ritual himself for whatever reason and makes Alistair/Loghain do it: once the ritual is done and it's time to slay the archdemon, the warden could leave Alistair/Loghain at Denerim's gates, thus leading to the warden personally striking the archdemon. Guess what? The warden stays alive. If what you said was true, then the warden should have died, because he/she wasn't the one who performed the ritual, Alistair/Loghain was the one.
So no, the dark ritual, if performed saves the life of any warden who gives the killing strike to the Archdemon.

 

Heh the best example is the Warden being female, for obvious reasons.

 

 

Another thing that I've been thinking about is Cailan.  Why would the "state" of Cailan's body be a factor that is imported.  Is there any  other evidence apart from Leandra of soul transfer.  I assume that's what happened with her.

 

I'm sure some things will get larger reference than others. It is not reasonable to expect that all choices get a heavy reference or impact the story of the new game. Perhaps something like this will just a line or two, while another choice might have a whole quest chain resulting from it. Also, the Keep is meant be a permanent repository of our Dragon Age choices. It might be that some of the choices we input won't be called until DA4 or 5, or some other future game in the series.


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#25
Ferretinabun

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Another thing that I've been thinking about is Cailan.  Why would the "state" of Cailan's body be a factor that is imported.  Is there any  other evidence apart from Leandra of soul transfer.  I assume that's what happened with her.

 

How do you know it will be imported?