319 réponses à ce sujet

[TheKomandorShepard]

There isn't anything illogical about it. The lore is what the writers make it. If they had decided that the dark ritual with Riordan could capture some shard of the essence of the Old God, there is no 'law' in the game world that says that can't happen.

 

The writers could also have decided in a sequel to leave the OGB's divinity ambiguous, so that it is never truly known whether the Riordan dark ritual managed to produce a reincarnated Old God or just a extremely powerful, but otherwise normal human.

 

 

If you're going to make certain aspects of DA:O's endings canon, I think the OGB makes a lot more sense than canonizing certain epilogues for the Warden and the companions. I'd have left the canonicity of character epilogues determined entirely by the player (like for example where the Warden becomes Chancellor of Ferelden and Leliana remains in Denerim), but Morrigan would conceive a child regardless of whether or not the player character approved of it.

 

It is stupid if soul goes to the child it goes to the child not killing warden if he did ritual if not then soul of archdemon is destroyed and in first place make choice meaninglessness if ritual works that way warden should be dead in every case so still meaninglessness...

 

Da epilogues are rumors not actual truth like we see in game if they would want everything canon they would throw idea of save import so they have make choices at least looking that they matter... 

[Han Shot First]

It is stupid if soul goes to the child it goes to the child not killing warden if he did ritual if not then soul of archdemon is destroyed and in first place make choice meaninglessness if ritual works that way warden should be dead in every case so still meaninglessness...

 

 

I'd have the Riordan ritual only capture a shard of the archdemon's soul. The rest attaches to the Warden (or Alistair or Loghain) and slays them.

 

Or alternatively, I'd have the OGB's divinity be entirely ambiguous in a sequel and thus it would never be truly known whether a Riordan dark ritual produced a reborn old God.

 

 

Da epilogues are rumors not actual truth like we see in game if they would want everything canon they would throw idea of save import so they have make choices at least looking that they matter...

 

The epilogues were canon and until the moment they get retconned by other content. There is really no difference between that and making the OGB canon in all playthroughs. Whether or not you find either one acceptable boils down to personal preference.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I'd have the Riordan ritual only capture a shard of the archdemon's soul. The rest attaches to the Warden (or Alistair or Loghain) and slays them.

 

Or alternatively, I'd have the OGB's divinity be entirely ambiguous in a sequel and thus it would never be truly known whether a Riordan dark ritual produced a reborn old God.

 

 

 

 

 

The epilogues were canon and until the moment they get retconned by other content. There is really no difference between that and making the OGB canon in all playthroughs. Whether or not you find either one acceptable boils down to personal preference.

 

Why? it is asspull and again makes choice pointless...

Avoiding that morrigan can have normal child with the warden or OGB i don't see reason why i should have OGB if sacrificed my pc or other warden to not have ogb just have it and die...

epilogues never were canon i can see working that for your character as well you know blank character in rpg but besides it was rumors devs said it before da 2.

[durasteel]

The way I see the quote is that he might be more likely not to include the OGB if the expectations e sees around the internet become too high, but if the expectations aren't that high he might incorporate it more into the game because there won't be a reaction like in Mass Effect 3 with "my choices don't matter" because the game didn't require major plot arcs to revolve around one choice to meet those expectations.

 

The way I read it was that since many seemed to want an entire game to be based off of that plot thread, it was not likely that the fanbase, collectively, would consider the attention given to the plot thread to be "sufficient."

 

My take-away from that was, to paraphrase, "We're gonna do what we want to, regardless of how much or how little y'all want."

[Han Shot First]

Why? it is asspull and again makes choice pointless...

 

 

No more an 'asspull' than having the Warden disappear, or Leliana surviving all playthroughs even if beheaded by the Warden, or Zevran showing up in Kirkwall even if he remained in Denerim or went to Par Vollen, ect, ect.

 

 

 

 

epilogues never were canon i can see working that for your character as well you know blank character in rpg but besides it was rumors devs said it before da 2.

 

Uh...yes they were. Or at least they were until later content contradicted it.

 

There is nothing wrong with preferring that the OGB not be canon in all playthroughs. That all boils down to personal preference. Its your argument against it on the basis that it would render choices meaningless that leaves me scratching my head, as you are seemingly okay with Bioware establishing a default canon with other choices.

 

In fact throwing out some of the epilogues renders choices meaningless to a greater degree, as making the OGB choice canon in all playthroughs does not discard a player choice. It merely makes Morrigan act independently of the player character. In contrast having the Warden disappear for example, discards a player choice to rule as Chancellor of Ferelden or the First Elven Bann of the Denerim Alienage. Having Leliana return as the Agent of the Divine potentially retcons the death of a character slain by the Warden. Ect, Ect, so on and so forth.

[TheKomandorShepard]

No more an 'asspull' than having the Warden disappear, or Leliana surviving all playthroughs even if beheaded by the Warden, or Zevran showing up in Kirkwall even if he remained in Denerim or went to Par Vollen, ect, ect.

 

 

 

 

 

Uh...yes they were. Or at least they were untl later content contradicted it.

 

There is nothing wrong with preferring that the OGB not be canon in all playthroughs. That all boils down to personal preference. Its your argument against it on the basis that it would render choices meaningless that leaves me scratching my head, as you are seemingly okay with Bioware establishing a default canon with other choices.

 

Warden disappear because he was as i said blank protagonist and possible that they wanted to now have show him and explain why they don't (at least i hope that is in case).About leliana you never cut her head it was gameplay do you think that she could survive fire balls into her face and fight further with me it was animation? 

 

It was 7 years after but i hate those cameos in da 2 and i doubt that he would be gladly welcome in par vollen and if you romance him in daa you got letter explaining that same with leliana...

 

Where they said that epilogues were canon i renember that they said it was rumors long before da 2.

 

With what other choices i don't like when i chose something and then puf they ignore that making that same if you ask about that i want important choices to be important and have meaning behind them  simple if i choose not have child with morrigan and die for it i don't want child and die simple that what i killed my pc or another character if i did ritual on other hand i did it for survival and it left me with future consequences that doesn't look very nice...

[SleepyBird]

Oops double post, sorry

Modifié par SleepyBird, 11 mars 2014 - 05:37 .

[SleepyBird]

The player should only have control over what the player character does. Morrigan is her own person, and should be outside the control of the player. Sometimes NPCs should defy player characters.

This is true. However, by this reasoning, the writers could choose to completely end the old god baby storyline by saying "Morrigan miscarried, no baby for anyone." Would you be satisfied with that? If your answer is "no" than you must alo see how unreasonable it would be to force the baby into games where the warden made the unlimate sacrifice.

[Bob from Accounting]

I don't understand. They might do less with it because people expect more? That makes no sense.

I expect some medium-level stuff. The only technical limit is that it can't be a required plot element. That leaves some pretty big possibilities, but I don't expect "really big" because the bigger it is, the more it might require a replacement plot element for those who didn't do the DR. I do expect a significant, medium-level divergence though, one that isn't limited to one or two lines of dialogue. For a choice acknowledged as "pretty fundamental", I think that's a reasonable expectation.

The most disappointing possibility is that they'll implement a medium-level divergence, but it ends up being irrelevant. That I find rather likely, unfortunately, since this kind of implementation has been a pattern in both ME and DA.

 

...You seem to have answered your own question.

 

By your own admission, the 'most disappointing possibility' is that they implement an 'irrelevant' medium-level divergence. So if the developers feel that players are expecting too much out of it and their current ideas aren't up to scratch, they might well decide to cut their losses and avoid a topic entirely instead of addressing a topic in a way players will hate.

 

Whereas if they feel players didn't expect as much, they might go ahead and implement what they have.

[Taleroth]

Player agency is more important than fan-conjecture about how awesome some plot element sounds.

[Ieldra]

...You seem to have answered your own question.
 
By your own admission, the 'most disappointing possibility' is that they implement an 'irrelevant' medium-level divergence. So if the developers feel that players are expecting too much out of it and their current ideas aren't up to scratch, they might well decide to cut their losses and avoid a topic entirely instead of addressing a topic in a way players will hate.
 
Whereas if they feel players didn't expect as much, they might go ahead and implement what they have.

I don't think it is particularly hard to make a medium-level divergence which doesn't end up being irrelevant. I don't even need to see the ultimate consequences, actually, I only need to know that they're there and what they are, and that they won't become a victim of the "status quo is king" principle.

One of my main criticisms of the ME trilogy was the fact that the consequences of decisions of past games appeared to be inversely proportional to their importance: small decisions made for a great deal of on-screen difference and sometimes made a small difference for the story, bigger decisions were fobbed off with two or three lines of dialogue which changed nothing about the story.

What I'm asking for is to follow a general principle: create diverging outcomes commensurate with the importance of the decisions if at all possible. Most of all, avoid the impression that the personal is everything and the big picture is nothing which is created by the kind of implementation used by ME. I find it very much preferable to have a bigger divergence I'm only told about but never see personally than to have an on-screen divergence of an important decision that's contrived to be irrelevant except on the personal level.

[Xilizhra]

One of my main criticisms of the ME trilogy was the fact that the consequences of decisions of past games appeared to be inversely proportional to their importance: small decisions made for a great deal of on-screen difference and sometimes made a small difference for the story, bigger decisions were fobbed off with two or three lines of dialogue which changed nothing about the story.

Can you elaborate on what was like this? Aside from the Collector base decision.

[Bob from Accounting]

I don't think it is particularly hard to make a medium-level divergence which doesn't end up being irrelevant.

Okay, that's nice, but my point was that doing less when players expect more can make sense.

 

But so long as we're on the topic, let me get this straight. You claim that both Dragon Age and Mass Effect have done 'medium-level divergence' poorly. You claim that choices from past games shouldn't become victim to a supposed 'status quo is king' principle. Now, since BioWare games are the only games I know of that use or have ever used an import mechanic (I've heard the Witcher does it, but not particularly well), that would mean that literally no game has ever done medium-level divergence for choices in past games well.

 

But yet, according to you, it's 'not particularly difficult.' It's 'not difficult,' but literally no video game has ever done it for some reason.

 

Is that about right?

 

What would be a theoretical 'medium level divergence choice' done well, exactly? Why don't you give an example from one of the Mass Effect or Dragon Age games of how a choice could have worked out?

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Okay, that's nice, but my point was that doing less when players expect more can make sense.

But yet, according to you, it's 'not particularly difficult.' It's 'not difficult,' but literally no video game has ever done it for some reason.

 

Is that about right?

 

 

 

David have you gotten to the point that you are no longer pretending to be Bob from accounting? or are you still smugly attempting to maintain the illusion?

 

I'm fine with either option but I'd think you would want to be more honest about your exploits.

[Lotion Soronarr]

What I'm asking for is to follow a general principle: create diverging outcomes commensurate with the importance of the decisions if at all possible.

 

As a general rule, yes.

But I want to see exceptions and unpredictable outcomes. Those happen.

[Ieldra]

As a general rule, yes.
But I want to see exceptions and unpredictable outcomes. Those happen.

Yes, they do. As a rule I don't have a problem with that, but I think final choices of previous games should never be made irrelevant this way if the sequel can be played in the same world-line. Bad Examples: ME1 ME2 DA2.

@Xilizhra:
There were two big-picture-affecting decisions in ME2 which had suitable consequences in ME3. The thing is, those, while big, were only peripherally related to the main plot. The final choices in particular, which were written and felt as the most important ones, made almost no difference at all. Which actually supports my statement that the more significant a decision was, the less effect it had. One of the least important decisions gave us almost 10 minutes of extra content.
And now enough with the OT.

[Reznore57]

I would get rid of the OGB during Inquisition.

He doesn't exist for some players , so he won't have any "destiny" as a being.

I'd use him as a power source to close the breach in the fade , or Morrigan could absorb his power and become Flemeth equal.

I mostly see him as a game changer between Morrigan and Flemeth.

They both wanted the soul afterall.

Flemeth didn't have it so she's probably working on some plan B.

But I think the fact that Morrigan is now a mother , who gets in a more human place ...facing Flemeth who taught her everything about being a cold b**** (I guess Flemeth had her reasons^^)and who wants her kid for something?

I can imagine many interesting drama .

[Eveangaline]

 

He doesn't exist for some players , so he won't have any "destiny" as a being.

 

He has the destiny to have lots of forum topics made about him.

[atum]

Thing is, the OGB is an interesting bit of story.  Whether or not somone chose the 'ultimate sacrifice' is not particularly interesting.  And because of this choice from Origins, both the OGB and the Warden can only end up a footnote in DA:I, especially after the uproar over Leliana and Zeveran.

 

So you have a lot of folks who would like to know more about these plot lines and are expecting we'll get a letter or codex entry (or something similarly unfullfilling) as the only cameo. 

 

You could say such is the nature of choice in these games, but you either mostly ignore interesting plotlines and let them fizzle out into nothing, or retcon and enrage some (vocal) portion of players. 

 

The only way to make everyone happy would be to somehow write two rather different versions of possibly "major" parts of DA:I. 

[Clockwork_Wings]

I think all three stories should be equally valid.  I hope that not romancing Morrigan or doing the ritual doesn't result in a vaccuum of content, which is why I've never denied recruiting my party members.  Hopefully we'll get one branch for not having her son, one for her son being normal, and a third for having done the ritual.

[Eveangaline]

Thing is, the OGB is an interesting bit of story. 

 

Eh that's debatable. I never thought it was interesting. I always saw the dark ritual as just an obvious gimmie thrown in by the game that said "we know some people will be super pissed and loud if we make their character die so here's an out". Like, to me it just screamed GAME MECHANIC TO AVOID FAN WHINING, so I never really cared about the baby. It wasn't an interesting future plot or super cool story, it was just a don't let my character die button to push.

[MrMrPendragon]

I think the mindset for those who chose the DR was more of a

"I want to know more about the mystery of the Old Gods" rather than "I don't want to die".

Because you can just have Alistair or Loghain die in your place. That's the way I was looking at it when I chose the DR. I don't mind dying if my death means and contributes something to the overall plot of the series, meaning I was ready to make the Ultimate Sacrifice, but since the game presented me with an alternate choice that not only could save me, but also give me the opportunity to explore the lore, well the choice was pretty clear to me. As soon as the DR was presented to me, I instantly thought that Dragon Age has a few more stories to tell, and the OGB is one of them.

I think the developers should consider this mindset while making content for the OGB as I'm sure I'm not the only one who thought like this while tackling the DR choice in the first game.

[BlueMagitek]

Having thought about it, I've come to the (very likely) controversial conclusion that any Warden who takes the DR option isn't truly a Grey Warden because they're not ending the threat; you kind of just kicked it down the road - or worse, you've given it a form that is easier to blend in with the rest of the world.

 

That's not even considering who is offering the Dark Ritual and would raise the result of it.

[MrMrPendragon]

Having thought about it, I've come to the (very likely) controversial conclusion that any Warden who takes the DR option isn't truly a Grey Warden because they're not ending the threat; you kind of just kicked it down the road - or worse, you've given it a form that is easier to blend in with the rest of the world.
 
That's not even considering who is offering the Dark Ritual and would raise the result of it.

True. Being a Grey Warden has always been about sacrifice. It's right in the motto of the Wardens "In Death. Sacrifice". This is sort of why I went through the Eluvian with Morrigan. I'd like to think the Warden would have some sort of influence on the boy.

[BlueMagitek]

True. Being a Grey Warden has always been about sacrifice. It's right in the motto of the Wardens "In Death. Sacrifice". This is sort of why I went through the Eluvian with Morrigan. I'd like to think the Warden would have some sort of influence on the boy.

And I hope this works out for you, I just don't want it to be the "golden" choice, if you understand me.