319 réponses à ce sujet

[wcholcombe]

I see no reason to believe that Morrigan would do anything leading to the destruction of the world.

 

 

If you're using that to make moral judgments, you'd have to distrust everyone except Sten and, to an extent, Oghren. And if you refuse the offer, you basically say that you don't need her anyway.

 

 

Morrigan specifically says "I doubt she will truly be dead even then" even beforehand if you ask her the right things.

We don't have any reason to believe Flemeth will either. Except for Morrigan's comment in witch hunt, which considering the efforts Morrigan seems to be going to to build her own power base-OGB, eluvians, Orlais, etc I don't see any reason to trust Morrigan more than Flemeth.  While flemeth has twice saved my character's life, has also saved King Maric's, warned him of the oncoming blight, warned him of Loghains betrayal, and has only asked me to deliver something in exchange or take her "daughter" with me. Meanwhile Morrigan has asked me to kill her "mother" and give her a god for a baby without explaining why.

[Xilizhra]

We don't have any reason to believe Flemeth will either. Except for Morrigan's comment in witch hunt, which considering the efforts Morrigan seems to be going to to build her own power base-OGB, eluvians, Orlais, etc I don't see any reason to trust Morrigan more than Flemeth.  While flemeth has twice saved my character's life, has also saved King Maric's, warned him of the oncoming blight, warned him of Loghains betrayal, and has only asked me to deliver something in exchange or take her "daughter" with me. Meanwhile Morrigan has asked me to kill her "mother" and give her a god for a baby without explaining why.

Morrigan, meanwhile, has been fighting by my side this whole time and we've saved each others' lives numerous times.

[BlueMagitek]

Morrigan specifically says "I doubt she will truly be dead even then" even beforehand if you ask her the right things.

 

I wasn't aware of that.

 

Still, the request is "Go kill the person who saved your life & saved the documents that are being used to save Ferelden because this book, which only I can read, predicts bad things for me."

 

As for Morrigan saving your life over the course of the adventure... she really doesn't.  Not in any way that's recognized by dialog or the plot.  Which throws it in the air, because it's entirely possible to leave her stewing at the camp.

[wcholcombe]

Morrigan, meanwhile, has been fighting by my side this whole time and we've saved each others' lives numerous times.

Yes fighting by your side in DAO under her mother's orders, and against her will, then summarly abandoning you without a word.

 

Look, I am not saying anything bad about Morrigan, I like her as well, just that Flemeth has a centuries longer track record to go off of.

[TK514]

I see no reason to believe that Morrigan would do anything leading to the destruction of the world.

 
 She leaves the world to burn instead of helping save it when she is in a position to do so. She chooses the possibility of you failing without her because you won't bow to her eleventh hour extortion rather than helping stop a global threat before it could destroy any more lives.

If you're using that to make moral judgments, you'd have to distrust everyone except Sten and, to an extent, Oghren.

No one else shows up the night before and extorts you with the fate of the world for a favor they won't tell you anything substantive about.

The only companion that comes even close to that is uhardened Alistair at the Landsmeet, and you're right, I wouldn't trust him either, at least not without adult supervision.

[Lotion Soronarr]

There's really no secret made about the fact that Flemeth won't really die, and Flemeth doesn't even seem to particularly mind the prospect. And I have no knowledge that whatever they're working on will actually be harmful to me; IC, I believe I would have seen Morrigan's facade crack more if she thought I'd come to harm.

 

I'd say Morrigan has you wrapped around her finger and using you as a tool, you being convinced she's madly in love with you. Let's re-cap:

 

- she deliberately keeps things from you, and even if directly asked, refuses to give you details on her plans or the ritual

 

- no matter how much she "loves" you she still leaves you and asks you not to interfere

 

- she is shown to be a person of poor morals, gladly sacrificing others for her own goals. Supportive of blood magic and murder of many innocent elves. Supportive of you leaving Redcliffe and it's people to die. Truly a woman of impeccable morality and a great rolemodel for any child - even moreso for a child with godly powers

 

- by her own admission she considers men gullible and easy to trick if you convince them that a women is madly in love with them.

"Men are always willing to believe two things about a woman: one, that she is weak, and two, that she finds him attractive."

 

(Delivering Notice of Death) "Your man is dead. Get over it." or "Oh please. I am so sure I am the one who has to do this."

 

 

Morrigan: There is nothing to notice. What you call "love" is nothing more than a wishful fancy.

 

Morrigan: Let me tell you one thing, and then let us speak of it no more. Love is a weakness. love is a cancer that grows inside and makes one do foolish things. Love is death. The love you dream of is something that would be more important to one than anything, even life. I know no such love.

 

Shale: The swamp witch has the same arrogance, the same air of cruelty. I would hate for it to have possession of my control rod... if it still worked, of course.

 

Wynne: You are dangerous, Morrigan. Dangerous, cunning and thoroughly deceitful. But you are beautiful, and he is young. It's a pity he doesn't know any better.

 

 

 

Trusting Morrigan with the OGB is an act of stupidity.

[Maria Caliban]

I want them to show that the DR is an alternative path that's just as interesting as US, not have DR basically be the "right" choice.

 

BioWare has never presented a decision where there was a right choice and a wrong choice.

 

Look at all the decisions you could make in the ME series. They ultimately amounted to a change in your War Readiness score. The worst you could do is skip all the non-essential quests, but playing MP for an hour would bump you up to whatever the minimums were for the different endings.

 

The only time you can make bad decisions in BioWare games is during combat.

[Nightdragon8]

*snip*

honestly most of my counter points come from Witch Hunt so, if you played it and still thought that then fine, nothing much I can do.

 

but say things Blood magic isn't "Evil" its a tool, not an intelligent being. Yes its a tool that has alot of risks, which can backfire in a huge and deadly fashion for the user and the people around afterwards. But its not evil.

 

As for her "Morals" no, her "Morals" don't line up with a civilized people, they align to a survivor based format, where "Might = Right" and the more "Might" you have the more "Right" you are.

 

As for what other people say about a person, Honestly I have found alot of women that get talked down to for "Being a ******" aren't bitchs when you don't treat them like they are a ******.

 

Some people just reflect what they are being treated as.

 

And yes, she is manipulative, what person in the world isn't?

 

As for the "Godly powers" honestly the only thing we have seen that the Old Gods could do was talk to people telepathicly.... oh and order darkspawn around. So it has yet to be seen.

 

Also your last statement pretty much means "As long as the warden goes with her" then everything should be fine right? I mean we have the warden with her... (which could be a complete psychopath during the play though)

[Clockwork_Wings]

Morrigan's motivations are definately in the eye of the beholder.  It's what I like about her.

 

According to the wiki, the dev's describe her as "vulnerable."  The only think I think she lied about was how Flemeth extends her lifespan.  When you confront Flemeth and tell her Morrigan knows how she does it, Flemeth goes, "That she does.  But do you?"

[Xilizhra]

I'd say Morrigan has you wrapped around her finger and using you as a tool, you being convinced she's madly in love with you.

I'm playing a female character and romancing Leliana, so this seems unlikely.

[Lotion Soronarr]

She can still trick you, regardless of gender.

 

And she is still manipulative, untrustworthy and immoral.

[EmissaryofLies]

Has Morrigan been known to betray allies though?

 

I do not recall.

 

Won't contest her morality, but she's never been known to be a backstabber, that's Izzy's game.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

And yes, she is manipulative, what person in the world isn't?

Shale isn't.

 

 

Has Morrigan been known to betray allies though?

 

I do not recall.

 

Won't contest her morality, but she's never been known to be a backstabber, that's Izzy's game.

Depends if you consider her abandoning your group if you refuse the DR a betrayal.

[EmissaryofLies]

 

Depends if you consider her abandoning your group if you refuse the DR a betrayal.

 

 

I see, then she does not.

 

She's already done enough by that point anyway. She patched up your wounds, risked her neck for you. Showed ya more ways than Saturday to look at a situation. So she don't love you no more. Aint nothing to it, but to do it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

I don't think Morrigan even has a good basis for her viewpoint to even call it a "morality".

 

edit: Basically, what I mean is: Everything about Morrigan's attitude is because she's Flemeth's victim. Not because of any morality. I still take pity on her, and think she needs to find herself without Flemeth's interference.. but still.. her viewpoint is a sham. It has no use for anyone except Flemeth.

 

BS.

You can't say morality doesn't apply to her or that Morrigan doesn't have any.

 

She was willing to sacrifice elven slaves. Men, women,children. Just for some more power. At that point I don't really care why she think that or if mommy spanked her when she was little.
 

[EmissaryofLies]

So what you're saying, Lotion. Is that Morrigan is the sweetest most benevolent wonderful video game vixen that you've ever seen.

[Shadow Fox]

I see, then she does not.

 

She's already done enough by that point anyway. She patched up your wounds, risked her neck for you. Showed ya more ways than Saturday to look at a situation. So she don't love you no more. Aint nothing to it, but to do it.

By that logic no character in the game betrays you.

[Seryuu]

 

Trusting Morrigan with the OGB is an act of stupidity.

 

It doesn't matter if you trust her or not, what matters is saving Urthemiel soul.

 

Also everyone knows that at some point they will have to choose a canon because if not they would have to make multiple games to cover all the choices.

It may not be in DAI but at some point they will have to do it, and when that time comes who says that they wont choose the OGB as canon.

Some people here say that the OGB cant be canon because it would screw over the people that did not do the DR, but then the same goes fur us if they choose US as canon.

 

With that said it doesn't matter what we think because when the time comes EA will do the choosing.

[Clockwork_Wings]

It would be neat if the way one treats her determines her motives.  If you treat her as untrustworthy, she is untrustworthy.  If you give her your trust, she deserves it.

 

But then the warden would always be right about her, and that would be boring.

[Nightdragon8]

Shale isn't.

 

 

Depends if you consider her abandoning your group if you refuse the DR a betrayal.

 

Really? I distinctly remember Shale saying it will leave the group if I don't destory the Anvil. That is clearly a manipulation.

[TheLastArchivist]

Morrigan said she would need power and time to prepare her child for what was to come.

We also know it's a destined child. Destined for what?

 

I keep thinking about the obscure connection between Calenhad's bloodline, dragons and Witches of the Wilds...Is there a chance that Morrigan's child will become some sort of leader, replacing old kings?

 

(Which seems unlikely, given that the Dark Ritual is optional...)

[Gervaise]

Morrigan was not happy when you refused her but she may have drawn some consolation from the fact that Flemeth didn't get what she wanted either, since it was originally Flemeth's idea, hence the smile.     Even if they include some reference to the OGB, it should be remembered that he is only around 10 years old so naturally Morrigan would not want to produce him to the world just yet because he isn't ready and would likely just get slaughtered.

 

You definitely die if you refuse the ritual.   There are various reasons why a Warden might do this including the fact that you are allowing the soul of a demon to destroy the soul of your child.   That seems pretty evil to me.    Since a Grey Warden is going to die prematurely eventually anyway they might also feel that dodging the bullet by such means is not honourable.    My Dalish Warden would have gone to any lengths to stop the Old God from escaping destruction considering that it was with the aid of the Old Gods that the Tevinter mages destroyed the original elven civilisation.   Loghain saw it as his redemption for his crimes and literally begged my Warden not to make him do the ritual.   I think there is a reason it is called the Dark Ritual and that has something to do with the nature of what you are doing.   Preserving the soul of a demon and allowing it to continue to inhabit the world in the form of a child.    Naturally Morrigan does not see it as evil but then her morality is governed by her upbringing.

 

As for the way in which Wardens originally hit upon this idea.   It seems to me that during the first century or so of warfare they probably did strike down Dumat more than once, only for it to rise again through the body of another darkspawn.   So they realised they needed to do something to stop this and that is why they hit upon the Warden ritual.   The immunity to dark spawn corruption turned out to be an additional benefit but I'm pretty certain the main reason they came up with it was to permanently destroy the archdemon.   In other words the original grey wardens accepted they would die when they struck the killing blow.   This would also account for how subsequent grey wardens knew this was the way to destroy archdemons since all the original wardens died in the battle to kill Dumat.    They must have left notes for others to follow.  

[AstraDrakkar]

UGH, Why won't these OGB threads just die? Who cares?

[Lotion Soronarr]

It doesn't matter if you trust her or not, what matters is saving Urthemiel soul.

 

What kind of un-logic is that?

 

How can you claim that trusting Morrigan doesn't matter when she is the one who does the ritual and tells you about it!

How do you even know you're "saving" Urthemiels soul? Becuse Morrigan told you that's her goal.

How do you even know what the ritual does? Because Morrigan told you..kinda. She avoided answering directly as much as possible.

 

Why do you even think it's worth it? Especially when the price is the soul of (Your, Allistairs or Loghains) child and probably the lives of thousands in the future.

 

So yes. Damn stupid.