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[Former_Fiend]

Having not read this thread at all, here's my two cents on the Dark Ritual and OGC.

 

I think that for imports where the ritual was done, it needs to be a big deal. Maybe not as big a deal in Inquisition as in the next game, but it needs to be a big deal. I don't know whether the child will have a positive or negative impact on the world of Thedas, but it needs to have a big impact. And for those of you who didn't go through with the ritual and committed the ultimate sacrifice, well, it'll just be content you don't get on those play throughs.

 

Here's my logic on this; if you went through with it, having it amount to nothing is going to be a tremendous let down. For the most part, those who didn't(from what I've seen) claim that the reason they didn't is because they considered the OGC a bigger risk than the blight; so if it amounts to nothing, then they sacrificed themselves because of a fear that was ultimately unfounded.

 

If anything, I'd imagine that people who are against the Dark Ritual would be the strongest supporters of it having major, dire consequences, if only so they can have the greatest "I told you so!" moment in video game history.

 

I myself have playthroughs where I went through with it and those where I didn't. When I went through with it, it was for primarily selfish reasons; my character was in love with Morrigan and would rather live and have the chance to find her again(which he did) than die and lose her for certain; and whatever consequences came from that, he'd deal with them when he came to them. When I didn't do it, I was playing a female warden and Loghain talked me out of ordering him to do it. He ended up sacrificing himself. That was his decision, and I could respect it.

[Eveangaline]

Having not read this thread at all, here's my two cents on the Dark Ritual and OGC.

 

I think that for imports where the ritual was done, it needs to be a big deal. Maybe not as big a deal in Inquisition as in the next game, but it needs to be a big deal. I don't know whether the child will have a positive or negative impact on the world of Thedas, but it needs to have a big impact. And for those of you who didn't go through with the ritual and committed the ultimate sacrifice, well, it'll just be content you don't get on those play throughs.

 

Here's my logic on this; if you went through with it, having it amount to nothing is going to be a tremendous let down. For the most part, those who didn't(from what I've seen) claim that the reason they didn't is because they considered the OGC a bigger risk than the blight; so if it amounts to nothing, then they sacrificed themselves because of a fear that was ultimately unfounded.

 

If anything, I'd imagine that people who are against the Dark Ritual would be the strongest supporters of it having major, dire consequences, if only so they can have the greatest "I told you so!" moment in video game history.

 

I myself have playthroughs where I went through with it and those where I didn't. When I went through with it, it was for primarily selfish reasons; my character was in love with Morrigan and would rather live and have the chance to find her again(which he did) than die and lose her for certain; and whatever consequences came from that, he'd deal with them when he came to them. When I didn't do it, I was playing a female warden and Loghain talked me out of ordering him to do it. He ended up sacrificing himself. That was his decision, and I could respect it.

 

And if you didn't do it, having a bunch of content be made you can't access because of something 3 games earlier would be a big let down as well. If you think people who were against it are the strongest supporter of it being super important, you are very much mistaken.

 

I know you really want it but since the writers have been consistent about saying the ritual isn't going to be made an ultimate canon, it's probably not going to have any bonuses over not doing it.

[Former_Fiend]

I'm not saying there should be a void there, where there's something that those who did it get and those who didn't get nothing. By all means, have there be some alternative conflict that those who didn't do it will face but those who did will miss out on.

 

And it's not like people are going to be forced to go back and replay two games to get their imports right. Answer a question on the keep, and bam, you're golden.

 

I suppose I'm letting meta gaming color my perspective. Seems to me that if you didn't want to miss out on the content you'd have gone through with the ritual.

 

Still, it just seems to me that if it amounts to nothing, both parties are being punished. The group who wanted to see what happens gets let down and the group who wanted to prevent a disaster sacrificed their characters for no good reason and the entire moral dilemma was pointless from the get-go.

 

But if you have a situation where it is a big deal, then both parties can get satisfying content, it'll just be different content.

[Eveangaline]

I'm not saying there should be a void there, where there's something that those who did it get and those who didn't get nothing. By all means, have there be some alternative conflict that those who didn't do it will face but those who did will miss out on.

 

And it's not like people are going to be forced to go back and replay two games to get their imports right. Answer a question on the keep, and bam, you're golden.

 

I suppose I'm letting meta gaming color my perspective. Seems to me that if you didn't want to miss out on the content you'd have gone through with the ritual.

 

Still, it just seems to me that if it amounts to nothing, both parties are being punished. The group who wanted to see what happens gets let down and the group who wanted to prevent a disaster sacrificed their characters for no good reason and the entire moral dilemma was pointless from the get-go.

 

But if you have a situation where it is a big deal, then both parties can get satisfying content, it'll just be different content.

 

Eeeh not necessarily. Since it being a big deal when what happened wasn't any different than any other time a blight was ended doesn't make much sense.

 

Plus, I admit I'm against it more because I always saw it as just a cheap game mechanic to avoid player backlash. Like the story was about the sacrifice of being a warden which meant you either had to sacrifice your friend or yourself to make the world safe for future games to take place in, but they knew that would make a lot of players really pissed off so the ritual was thrown in so people who don't like having to make that kind of choice wouldn't all complain about being railroaded into death at the end. I never saw it as a cool interesting plot hook for Morrigans future or the future of the series, to me It was just a button to push to not have your character die, and I admit, I'm not that interested in seeing it being stretched into being very story important.

 

Still I understand that others see it very differently and would want it to be important, but from what we've heard from writers on this, I don't think it will be made too important. In inquisition at least the writers have pointed out that any existing baby with Morrigan would be ten and therefor..not that important. And if it was going to have major repercussions I'd think they'd have laid the groundwork for why not doing it would somehow be different than from when every other blight ended and no such ritual was done.

 

But then I guess "I personally find the OGB game mechanic completely uninteresting" isn't that good an argument for something being left out, or most of the game wouldn't exist since nothing appeals to everyone.

[Former_Fiend]

Well, I can't put into words how much I didn't get that vibe at all from it; from the start I thought of it as something that was going to have a far reaching impact in the series. I went through with it because I felt it was going to have major repercussions, and I wanted to see what they were.

 

If anything, I think reducing it to something with minor consequences will ultimately reduce it to nothing but a cheap "my character lives" button, and that is something I absolutely don't want to see. 

 

I will agree that I don't think Inquisition is the time for it to fully unfold; the kid is only going to be ten or there abouts, as you said. But I think Inquisition is the place to start laying some more groundwork for what might come of it in the future.

[Eveangaline]

Well, I can't put into words how much I didn't get that vibe at all from it; from the start I thought of it as something that was going to have a far reaching impact in the series. I went through with it because I felt it was going to have major repercussions, and I wanted to see what they were.

 

If anything, I think reducing it to something with minor consequences will ultimately reduce it to nothing but a cheap "my character lives" button, and that is something I absolutely don't want to see. 

 

I will agree that I don't think Inquisition is the time for it to fully unfold; the kid is only going to be ten or there abouts, as you said. But I think Inquisition is the place to start laying some more groundwork for what might come of it in the future.

 

To me that's what it always was, reason I only did it once for the achievement. Still I hope they can do something that will satisfy your desire for it to come up in the story without it being too intrusive in the story for those who didn't think that much of it. Or they somehow find a way to do something so cool both of us are happy.

[Former_Fiend]

Yea, I just really don't get that. To me, I remember from the first time I played, thinking that it was the single most important decision in the game. I thought, "Wow, this is it; this is the big one." I thought, this is the decision that is going to have echoes and ripples throughout the series. 

 

I suppose I may have blown it out of proportion, but still, looking back, none of the other choices your character makes seem to have implications on that level. 

 

And I just feel that doing nothing with it would really be the final confirmation of "Yup, your decisions really do not matter at all in Bioware games; they're always gonna end up leading to the same places, anyway."

[Eveangaline]

Yea, I just really don't get that. To me, I remember from the first time I played, thinking that it was the single most important decision in the game. I thought, "Wow, this is it; this is the big one." I thought, this is the decision that is going to have echoes and ripples throughout the series. 

 

I suppose I may have blown it out of proportion, but still, looking back, none of the other choices your character makes seem to have implications on that level. 

 

And I just feel that doing nothing with it would really be the final confirmation of "Yup, your decisions really do not matter at all in Bioware games; they're always gonna end up leading to the same places, anyway."

To me, the big decision was who dies. You or your Alistair (unless you jump through the hoops to get loghain without sacrificing alistairs quality of life in the process. And even then, you or Loghain..that's a big ****** choice). That's the choice that mattered. That was the big one. To me the ritual wasn't anything, it was a cheap mechanic that let you out of having to actually face the big one. Ignoring it in the future wouldn't say to me "Your decisions don't matter", just that the ritual didn't because the only reason it existed in the first place was to let you out of having to make decisions that matter if you didn't want to make them.

 

I preferred to make the big decision that mattered, that leads to different places and different futures for the world of thedas, so I ignored the game mechanic of the ritual, to move on to the real big decision.

 

Still I can understand why someone might see it differently and be disappointed if they thought the ritual would lead somewhere and it doesn't.

[J-Reyno]

I think one perspective you might consider, Eveangaline, are people that may have only allowed their character to live because of the ritual.  

 

If Morrigan had not presented the DR to my Warden, I would have been content enough to just let him die.  I mean, saying that, I have multiple playthroughs and some did.  But on my -main- Warden who I consider my personal canon, I had him complete the ritual instead of dying because I wanted to see where that lead and I thought it was a potentially fascinating concept/plotline.  If it were just thrown away or disregarded it's kind of a "well hell, I could have just let my character die a noble death then" kind of thing.

 

For me, it wasn't a cheap way out, but rather a way into another plot.  I didn't mind the Ultimate Sacrifice otherwise.  So lack of proper followup would be pretty deceitful.

 

Overall I'm not too worried about it.  I know it's been said that it will play a role in DAI if you made the choice.  Nothing crucial, I'm sure, and being that the child would only be ten years old I'm content enough to see where it has come thus far.

[Eveangaline]

I think one perspective you might consider, Eveangaline, are people that may have only allowed their character to live because of the ritual.

 

If Morrigan had not presented the DR to my Warden, I would have been content enough to just let him die.  I mean, saying that, I have multiple playthroughs and some did.  But on my -main- Warden who I consider my personal canon, I had him complete the ritual instead of dying because I wanted to see where that lead and I thought it was a potentially fascinating concept/plotline.  If it were just thrown away or disregarded it's kind of a "well hell, I could have just let my character die a noble death then" kind of thing.

 

Overall I'm not too worried about it.  I know it's been said that it will play a role in DAI if you made the choice.  Nothing crucial, I'm sure, and being that the child would only be ten years old I'm content enough to see where it has come thus far.

 

No no I fully understand that plenty of people who made the decision did so because they thought it would lead to interesting story down the road, I'm just saying that that's not a universally held opinion of where that choice would go. To point out that not getting extra content because you didn't do it isn't the only reason someone may not want it to be that important in later games. Some people are just not interested in the idea of the OGB being critically important, because they simply never found the choice that interesting compared to the option of the sacrifice the warden had to make one way or another with their or their allies life.

 

Honestly I don't really know what bioware could do to satisfy everyone. There are people that are going to think a totally cool plot hook is being ignored if it isn't explored, and people who are going to think a glorified game mechanic is being pushed into the story if it is. Frankly I don't envy biowares position.

 

Honestly while I would prefer it not come up as important in future games, I trust them to do them well enough that even if it does I'll still find the games enjoyable.

[Seryuu]

What kind of un-logic is that?

 

How can you claim that trusting Morrigan doesn't matter when she is the one who does the ritual and tells you about it!

How do you even know you're "saving" Urthemiels soul? Becuse Morrigan told you that's her goal.

How do you even know what the ritual does? Because Morrigan told you..kinda. She avoided answering directly as much as possible.

 

Why do you even think it's worth it? Especially when the price is the soul of (Your, Allistairs or Loghains) child and probably the lives of thousands in the future.

 

So yes. Damn stupid.
 

 

Urthemiel didn't choose to lead the Blight, he was corrupted by the Darkspawn and turned in to the Archdemon.

That would mean that Urthemiel was a victim of the Blight and he is most likely is not evil.

Do you think that the Tevinter Imperium would have worship him if he was just some dragon or a ravaging beasts and that after we save his soul he will go back to leading the Darkspawn and ravaging the world ?

The answer to that question is most likely not, i think that he would try to make things right and heal the world and that is worth the risk.

Also according to Corypheus Dumat was the one who convinced the magisters to enter the golden city and when they arrived there it was already black.

That would mean that the entity known as the Maker is not what it appears to be, so i rather go the safe way and have a Old God on my side just in case this Maker tries something not so nice.

[Ieldra]

@Former Fiend:
I agree completely. I've also always thought the DR is a big deal, and seeing it make a difference of two lines in a scene like the endgame decisions of earlier games in ME3 would be hugely disappointing.

As for missing content: I am fully for giving both sides - those who did the ritual and those who didn't - significant extra content not available to the other side, even if it's a complete story arc. Mark Darrah said they won't avoid decision-dependent content in DAI as much as in earlier games. This is where they could prove it. I can only win since I have continuties with both variants, and those who haven't can easily create them with the DA Keep. What I don't want is the DR having unambiguously bad consequences, in that case I'd rather have it completely insignificant.

I did the DR with my main Warden because it was in-character for him and both he and I are drawn to the "other" and are always looking for the mysterious things out there in order to see how they'll affect the world. I did it for the reason spoken by Morrigan, that some things are better preserved and not destroyed, even if they're dangerous. So I really need it to have a potentially good outcome, or at least an ambiguous outcome which could result in something desirable given the right circumstances. If there's anything where I would really hate the game to tell me "You've been wrong" it's this. In fact, my appreciation of DA as a whole is linked to this like nothing else. If they'll let Hawke be killed by a blood mage because they sided with the mages in DA2, I wouldn't like it but I could live with it. An unambiguously bad outcome of the DR, that would seriously hurt... about as much as certain aspects of ME3.

As for the rationale: we don't really know what the Old Gods are, but they're too interesting to destroy unless or until we do know they're better destroyed. The Old Gods weren't responsible for the Blights, after all, they were changed by the darkspawn, victims of whatever happened at the Black City as much as the magisters were. The message of an unambiguously bad outcome would be "faced with a potentially dangerous unknown, better be safe and destroy it". I don't want to have an active hand in a story that sends such a message.

The DR was never about the Warden living for me. That was just a bonus, and I could've had it with letting Alistair make the kill, very much in accordance with Warden tradition that the senior Warden does it, or by taking Loghain with me and have him redeem himself. I've done both in different games. The DR - that was always about the inherent mystery of it and its potential for bringing something interesting and new into the world. My main Warden would've done the ritual with Morrigan whenever she asked, even had a life not been the reward, in order to explore those things beyond the human ken, and make them theirs if feasible.

[Nightdragon8]

UGH, Why won't these OGB threads just die? Who cares?

im sorry to say but, obviously someone does because its being made. so hate to say it "Dumb question"

[Neleothesze]

Here are my 2cents: The Dark Ritual was a big deal. And it's great that Bioware is taking the time to write, code, VO, etc content for people who performed it and want to see what exactly comes of Morrigan's plans of raising a child with the soul of an Old God.

 

That said, I'm one of the people who never took the option. Perhaps because I only played female characters in DA:O and wasn't interested in a romance with the prickly witch and so her wishes didn't matter all that much to me... but even when she befriended my warden, I never wanted to give her any power over my decisions. 

Morrigan is sly and she always plays her cards close to her chest. When she chooses not to lie, she's blunt to the point of rudeness, often telling the warden to butt out, that something isn't his or her business or beyond his/her understanding. This sort of secretive person isn't the one I'd entrust with the essence of an Old God, no matter how seemingly benign her intentions. I would rather send Alistair or Loghain to their deaths a dozen times over than unleash that sort of power upon the world with only Morrigan's tenuous grasp of empathy to guide it.

If anything, Bioware made it so that Morrigan survives everything you throw at her. I think that's enough of a concession. To force us to accept the Dark Ritual as a standard, unchangeable decision would be a step backwards from the effort they put into expanding even your minor choices, let alone something as important to you - as a character (if role-playing) or player (if meta-gaming) - as whether or not you'd let an ancient power out of your supervision to save one life. Not to mention that with every new game, the player-base expands. What does a new player care if someone had sex with someone else in some previous game and spawned a super-kid? To make it memorable enough they'd have to go through the whole process of re-explaining what the Old Gods were, how they became tainted, their relative power and threat level and every other detail in between. Otherwise, the kid just becomes Boss Number N+1 which takes a group of X, Y and Z to defeat on Hard and above...

If you do care, then you can import your preferred choice. I for one will have my hands full with the beings/people behind the Mage-Templar war without worrying about having left even more powerful foes to grow strong in the shadows.

[Nightdragon8]

And if you didn't do it, having a bunch of content be made you can't access because of something 3 games earlier would be a big let down as well. If you think people who were against it are the strongest supporter of it being super important, you are very much mistaken.

 

I know you really want it but since the writers have been consistent about saying the ritual isn't going to be made an ultimate canon, it's probably not going to have any bonuses over not doing it.

Which can be changed, with a few clicks of a mouse in the keep so taht they CAN see the content... Oh how I loved playing DA2 over and over again useing Gibbed save maker....

 

canon... *sigh* tired of hearing it.... the ONLY canon is the one you make yourself. Yes yes there are the books in which that is "canon" but honestly, I'm doing what even the writer of the books said, and using my OWN canon... so yes.

 

Honestly DA:I unless it was the kid throwing a temper tantrium that ended up causing the tare in the fade then honestly he wont make a bit of damn difference.

 

We really don't know who or what the old gods are. I'm assuming that each one has there own personality. I would assume Dumat was the power grabbing A#$@$@# of the bunch. And the rest fell to the taint. We dont know the story, or what the Old god was that put into the OGB body was like personality wise.... for all we know it could be the really nice one, and may turn into an Andrastate like person. However we don't know.

 

There is way too much we don't know about the Old gods other than "They turned into archdemons when tainted by darkspawn" I mean from the archdemon fight with the warden... honestly... that really that tough... the only hard part is killing them. they don't seem to be very powerful magic wise. In fact there only power seems to be telepathy. I mean its a good power but its VERY limited in what it can do.

[TK514]

From my perspective, the further along we get in the series, the less likely there will be any meaningful OGB content. As time marches on, you're going to have an increasing number of players who have no context for what the DR and OGB even are. Sure, they'll see it in the Keep, but really, what kind of impact is that going to have? Even the name of the event works against it. If I'm a new player and I want my world to have had good guy heroes (or I'm BioWare savvy and know that Blue = Better in BW games), am I really going to pick something I have no investment in called the Dark Ritual?

[Shadow Fox]

Eh I always saw the DR as a Get Out of Jail Free card. 

[Former_Fiend]

From my perspective, the further along we get in the series, the less likely there will be any meaningful OGB content. As time marches on, you're going to have an increasing number of players who have no context for what the DR and OGB even are. Sure, they'll see it in the Keep, but really, what kind of impact is that going to have? Even the name of the event works against it. If I'm a new player and I want my world to have had good guy heroes (or I'm BioWare savvy and know that Blue = Better in BW games), am I really going to pick something I have no investment in called the Dark Ritual?

 

That's a distressingly convincing argument.

[Jack Druthers]

What if the whole OGB/DR is not canon for the reason it changes nothing at all.  What if no matter which Wardens survived the final onslaught and who was on the throne or just survived the events of the fifth Blight, meant little in the greater scheme of things?  David Gaider said that the Warden's story was over for a reason.  I am not advocating his/her return.  I am suggesting that the Warden was possibly related to both Dumat and Flemeth.

[Nightdragon8]

OGB will get mentioned considering we will be meating Morri, there is going to be SOME comment about her child somewhere, if there isn't then BW just isn't even trying anymore.

 

The kid isn't going to be an issue, and IMO what BW should do is later on have a standalone game.

 

The best use of Power is not in an open and flashy way because that just gets you killed. Using a small amount and in secret and in the right amount is how to control nations and the world.