319 réponses à ce sujet

[SleepyBird]

While I completely respect your opinion, I feel just as strongly as you do, but in the opposite direction. I refused the deal with Morrigan and my character died as a result. This was not an easy or meaningless choice.

 

I thought for a whole weekend about my decision, the possible implications, the likely repercussions, and came to the final decision that my good-hearted, idealistic warden would rather die than ask the man she loved to participate in such an act (and this had nothing to do with jealousy about sex - my warden had already given Alistair up to the throne and another woman at that point). I, as a player, gave up the opportunity to continue the story of the character I had invested so much time and thought into, rather than allow her to so completely betray her personal convictions. (If the ritual had been offered to her in a way in which she herself participated in some way, I would have seriously considered accepting, but for her to ask it of Alistair was absolutely impossible.)

 

I desperately hope that Bioware considers the fact that I made this choice thoughtfully, and does not simply treat refusal as a missed opportunity for which I will be punished with a lack of access to content and a less rich world in which to play Inquisition. I am absolutely not saying that the OGB should not be an important story element for those who made a different decision than I did, but it also should not be forced upon players who made a different decision. I simply want a world that honors my very difficult choice as much as it honors the choice of the players who participated in Morrigan's ritual.

[Jack Druthers]

I forget wiki maybe - soz

[nightscrawl]

But the whole "my player choice was not recognize" if she succeeds without you doesn't have any foundation.

 

To YOU. It is important to a lot of people. There are many players who purposely refused the DR knowing they could die, and who feel that it was the right choice for their Warden. Ignoring that is pissing on that choice and on the fates of thousands of Wardens.

 

 

[edit]

And you know, not everyone thinks this whole "Old God Baby" thing is "epic." I never found it, or Morrigan herself, to be very compelling or interesting. The only reason I do it is to save my own ass, and that of my boyfriend.

[Artemis Leonhart]

The whole point of asking why you would just hand wave Morrigan's agenda of you decided not to do the DR, is that that twist was one of the most memorable in gaming history.  And it was, imo, just to good of a plot to pass up for future iteration.  If they want to just forget it fine, but I think they could have had an epic story with that alone instead of turning it into a small cameo appearance.

 

But the whole "my player choice was not recognize" if she succeeds without you doesn't have any foundation.

They can't make it canon because if you choose to not do the ritual then either your warden or Alistair/Loghain dies. How could they possibly explain the fact that a grey warden died slaying the archdemon even if Morrigan managed to do the ritual with someone despite the warden refusal? I mean, sure, they could find a way to explain it, but it would be a massive retcon of previously established things that would leave a good number of players...dissatisfied, to say the least.

[nightscrawl]

How do you know it will be imported?

 

The choice is called when you import DAO data into DA2. You can see it when you make a new character and import; there is an option to look at the choices being imported. So it's not unreasonable to assume it might be an option in the Keep, along with dozens of other things we might not have thought of yet.

[Jack Druthers]

Case in point:  I'm playing a BM Elf and he is romancing Morrigan.  But on the basis of "there are some things just you don't do" this guy will US. Shame but there it is.

[Nefla]

To YOU. It is important to a lot of people. There are many players who purposely refused the DR knowing they could die, and who feel that it was the right choice for their Warden. Ignoring that is pissing on that choice and on the fates of thousands of Wardens.

Agreed, and I know many fans do as well. Think of how well "the Rachni queen is alive because clones trololo" in ME3 even if you killed her in ME1 went over. Not well at all for either side.

[Jerrybnsn]

The reason that you die when killing the archdemon is that the archdemon soul is absorbed into your own body and both souls are destroyed in the process. So what killed you if you didn't absorb the soul?

 

And is Morrigan the Truthful telling you everything?

[nightscrawl]

And is Morrigan the Truthful telling you everything?

 

Sorry, that is word of Gaider:

 

David Gaider wrote...

 

If the player didn't do the Dark Ritual, or didn't get Alistair or Loghain to do it, then it wasn't done. Had Morrigan figured out some way to otherwise do it, then nobody would have died when the Archdemon was slain. If she had some way to go about getting the Archdemon's soul without resorting to the Dark Ritual as she proposed it, then why did she go through all the trouble?

[Artemis Leonhart]

The choice is called when you import DAO data into DA2. You can see it when you make a new character and import; there is an option to look at the choices being imported. So it's not unreasonable to assume it might be an option in the Keep, along with dozens of other things we might not have thought of yet.

I have the feeling that the Cailan choice will come up as a rumor and nothing really major (because, seriously, it's not a plot changing choice and some people might even not have played the dlc), something like: "Did you hear? They say that the Hero of Ferelden fed Cailan's body to the wolves! I wouldn't like to mess with someone like him/her!"

 

And is Morrigan the Truthful telling you everything?

The "archdemon soul clashes with warden soul and gets destroyed with the warden" part is told to you by Riordan, who has absolutely no reason to bullshit you. If Morrigan somehow manages to convince either Riordan or Alistair/Loghain to do the ritual, then a warden who sacrifices him/herself shouldn't die, but it turns out that he/she does die. Bottom line is: if you didn't do the ritual a warden dies and the ogb doesn't exist in that world, if you did the ritual no warden whatsoever would have died, the ogb exist, enjoy your cameo in the following games.

Also, what nightscrawl said.

Modifié par Antaine87, 04 mars 2014 - 04:38 .

[Spectre slayer]

And is Morrigan the Truthful telling you everything?

She may not be telling you everything but for the millionth time Gaider already refuted this sigh I even posted a bunch of them if you don't do the ritual then there's no ogb and the person who takes the final blow dies and there's no way around this.

[Jack Druthers]

I'm just supposing here, Jerrybns asked earlier about the smile Morrigan has as she leaves - what if she didn't  really want to do the DR?  It was Flemeth's idea apparently  and Flemeth is not a factor now (hopefully)  Would it seem likely that Morrigan would have the "Well I did ask and they said no" attitude hence the smile and off to Orlais?

[Jerrybnsn]

I just thought: We've gone through all these games worried about one body having two spirits - possession.  At one stage you were falling over possessed things and people, and now then it turns out that the soul overdose kills! It twists the melon slightly.   Is it possible for two bodies to only have one spirit?

But a tainted Old God spirit might be a bit too much that would shatter the Grey Warden soul.  You need the special magic that would save the Old God and yourself from killing each other.  But what if saving the Warden wasn't part of the saving the Old God?  That was something that Morrigan gave away out of compassion or to sweeten the deal?

[Jack Druthers]

 Antaine87 said

I have the feeling that the Cailan choice will come up as a rumor and nothing really major (because, seriously, it's not a plot changing choice and some people might even not have played the dlc), something like: "Did you hear? They say that the Hero of Ferelden fed Cailan's body to the wolves! I wouldn't like to mess with someone like him/her!"

 

That's what I thought too.  These Therins are an unlucky bunch.

[Artemis Leonhart]

 Antaine87 said

I have the feeling that the Cailan choice will come up as a rumor and nothing really major (because, seriously, it's not a plot changing choice and some people might even not have played the dlc), something like: "Did you hear? They say that the Hero of Ferelden fed Cailan's body to the wolves! I wouldn't like to mess with someone like him/her!"

 

That's what I thought too.  These Therins are an unlucky bunch.

Well, they also are mostly fools.
But I admit that being a fool isn't reason enough to feed the remains of said fool to the wolves, everyone should deserve some dignity in death.

[The Elder King]

And is Morrigan the Truthful telling you everything?

Other than Gaider explicitely stated this (check nightscrawl post), it'd not about what Morrigan said, it'd about logic.
A Warden dies when he kills an archdemon, because he absorbs the soul of it. That's a fact. The DR makes so that the child takes the soul of the archdemon instead of the Warden, that's also a fact, becuase the Warden didn't die in DR. He's directly responsible of the Warden's salvation. In US, there's no OGB, so the Warden takes up the soul of the archdemon and dies. If Morrigan found a way to to the DR, the hyphotethical child would've taken the soul and the Warden woudn't have died. There's no way a Warden would've died in the US if Morrigan did something. Becuase the only reason the Warden dies it's because he took Urthemiel's soul.

[Jack Druthers]

I can't shake the idea of reconstituting ashes like Gazarath in the Korcari Wilds.  That and Ash Wraiths just make me wonder whether it's possible.

[The Elder King]

But a tainted Old God spirit might be a bit too much that would shatter the Grey Warden soul.  You need the special magic that would save the Old God and yourself from killing each other.  But what if saving the Warden wasn't part of the saving the Old God?  That was something that Morrigan gave away out of compassion or to sweeten the deal?

.....Wardens die when slaying the archdemons becuase they take their Souls. It's logical. Without the WArden absorbing the archdemons soul, they Wardens don't die.

[Jerrybnsn]

No, the dark ritual, if performed saves any warden who kills the archdemon, not only the warden who did the ritual. Proof of this is if the warden is either female or a male who doesn't want to di the ritual himself for whatever reason and makes Alistair/Loghain do it: once the ritual is done and it's time to slay the archdemon, the warden could leave Alistair/Loghain at Denerim's gates, thus leading to the warden personally striking the archdemon. Guess what? The warden stays alive. If what you said was true, then the warden should have died, because he/she wasn't the one who performed the ritual, Alistair/Loghain was the one.
So no, the dark ritual, if performed saves the life of any warden who gives the killing strike to the Archdemon.

What if she choose you to save instead of Alistair or Loghain, because she knew you would be the one to get to the archdemon, or because she would protect you first and foremost as a friend or lover?  She admits a few times in the game she lies.

 

I just see ways that they could have made the OGB canon.  And why shouldn't they?  It's been the most interesting story so for.  I'm just surprised, as I stated in my OP, that they would give up such a great plot point to carry forward into the series.  As well as I'm surprised that Morrigan would not even attempt any alternative, especially since they pan the camera to her giving a "sly smile" that she's up to something in regards to the OGB.

 

And what was the reason why they couldn't make the OGB canon?  Player Choice?  If you choose not to help, that didn't mean that she wouldn't be able to implement Plan B.  You would still have your choice of not helping and having the consequences of not being the father and dying a martyr.  Again, Morrigan just seemed to be more of a stronger, important character to me.  That's why I'm surprised that the OGB is not canon.

[The Elder King]

What if she choose you to save instead of Alistair or Loghain, because she knew you would be the one to get to the archdemon, or because she would protect you first and foremost as a friend or lover?  She admits a few times in the game she lies.
 
I just see ways that they could have made the OGB canon.  And why shouldn't they?  It's been the most interesting story so for.  I'm just surprised, as I stated in my OP, that they would give up such a great plot point to carry forward into the series.  As well as I'm surprised that Morrigan would not even attempt any alternative, especially since they pan the camera to her giving a "sly smile" that she's up to something in regards to the OGB.
 
And what was the reason why they couldn't make the OGB canon?  Player Choice?  If you choose not to help, that didn't mean that she wouldn't be able to implement Plan B.  You would still have your choice of not helping and having the consequences of not being the father and dying a martyr.  Again, Morrigan just seemed to be more of a stronger, important character to me.  That's why I'm surprised that the OGB is not canon.

Morrigan doesn't have demigod power, and the reason why the DR saves the Warden is perfectly clear and logical, as Gaider exained too.
Again, they already stated that the OGB won't be canon. Get over it.

[Artemis Leonhart]

What if she choose you to save instead of Alistair or Loghain, because she knew you would be the one to get to the archdemon, or because she would protect you first and foremost as a friend or lover?  She admits a few times in the game she lies.

 

I just see ways that they could have made the OGB canon.  And why shouldn't they?  It's been the most interesting story so for.  I'm just surprised, as I stated in my OP, that they would give up such a great plot point to carry forward into the series.  As well as I'm surprised that Morrigan would not even attempt any alternative, especially since they pan the camera to her giving a "sly smile" that she's up to something in regards to the OGB.

 

And what was the reason why they couldn't make the OGB canon?  Player Choice?  If you choose not to help, that didn't mean that she wouldn't be able to implement Plan B.  You would still have your choice of not helping and having the consequences of not being the father and dying a martyr.  Again, Morrigan just seemed to be more of a stronger, important character to me.  That's why I'm surprised that the OGB is not canon.

She can't choose a warden to protect with the ritual, it's either all or none (the latter in case the ritual is not done). You refuse the ritual, the warden or Loghain/Alistair dies, there's no way around it. If she did manage to perform the ritual with someone, then an ultimate sacrifice ending wouldn't have been there, just like the Alistair/Loghain death endings. If you're really not persuaded, read nightscrawl post, he/she quoted what Gaider himself had to say on the matter.
Besides, all of what you say about the ogb plot being compelling is a personal opinion: other players like more the Ultimate Sacrifice, yet others like the Loghain redemption by death ending, and so on; all of this points of view are as valid as yours and Bioware was wise enough to recognize this by choosing to not make the OGB canon.

Modifié par Antaine87, 04 mars 2014 - 05:09 .

[Jack Druthers]

But a tainted Old God spirit might be a bit too much that would shatter the Grey Warden soul.  You need the special magic that would save the Old God and yourself from killing each other.  But what if saving the Warden wasn't part of the saving the Old God?  That was something that Morrigan gave away out of compassion or to sweeten the deal?

See, I have trouble with this Archdemon being a soul less vessel as Riordan puts it.  Here's an extract from the wiki:

In -305 Ancient (890 TE), after nearly a century of bitter war against the darkspawn hordes, a group of veteran warriors came together in WeisshauptFortress in the Anderfels, the western part of the Tevinter Imperium. Warden legends sing of their leader Carinus, and the sacrifice the founders made as they tried to save the world while their families perished. It is thought that Nakiri of The Donarks was the one who first suggested imbibing the blood of the darkspawn, as his people were known to consume the blood of their enemies to absorb their power. 

 

All that time and they didn't suss how these things died even though four Archdemons had been killed, I find it difficult to understand that  the wardens knew little of an enemy they had been fighting for centuries, and then some witch comes up with the solution.  Garahel survived one Archdemon and yet Morrigan described his story as "Sordid" 

[Spectre slayer]

What if she choose you to save instead of Alistair or Loghain, because she knew you would be the one to get to the archdemon, or because she would protect you first and foremost as a friend or lover?  She admits a few times in the game she lies. I just see ways that they could have made the OGB canon.  And why shouldn't they?  It's been the most interesting story so for.  I'm just surprised, as I stated in my OP, that they would give up such a great plot point to carry forward into the series.  As well as I'm surprised that Morrigan would not even attempt any alternative, especially since they pan the camera to her giving a "sly smile" that she's up to something in regards to the OGB. And what was the reason why they couldn't make the OGB canon?  Player Choice?  If you choose not to help, that didn't mean that she wouldn't be able to implement Plan B.  You would still have your choice of not helping and having the consequences of not being the father and dying a martyr.  Again, Morrigan just seemed to be more of a stronger, important character to me.  That's why I'm surprised that the OGB is not canon.

Sigh Gaider already said no, she won't choose or go to another warden and you get locked into the ultimate sacrifice, and I already posted what he said on the matter on the first page, the ogb isn't going to be canon and likely won't be as important as you want since he's completely optional and not apart of their canon.

[RedFire]

Morrigan doesn't have demigod power, and the reason why the DR saves the Warden is perfectly clear and logical, as Gaider exained too.
Again, they already stated that the OGB won't be canon. Get over it.

 

Actually they said it's just not the default for Inquisition. There is no canon only default, and there's a reason for save imports and the keep.

[Jerrybnsn]

Agreed, and I know many fans do as well. Think of how well "the Rachni queen is alive because clones trololo" in ME3 even if you killed her in ME1 went over. Not well at all for either side.

That is a very good point to bring up, and I agree with you on that account.  However, Shepard didin't have someone in  party whose sole reasoning for being with you was to secretly save the Rachni Queen.  Nor did that moment came at the part of game that was used as the twist before the climax.  Nor did Liara or anyone else give that sly smile that makes you wonder what they got planned.