319 réponses à ce sujet

[Artemis Leonhart]

I don't think I'm alone in thinking the OGB part was epic.  I mean, Bioware itself did put it at the most crucial part of the story, the twist just before the climax.  They wouldn't have put it there if it wasn't important to the story.

They probably put it there to give the players a way to avoid any beloved character's death and as a cool roleplaying choice, and I think they're starting to regret doing so, since there are players like you who can't wrap their head around the fact that the OGB plot is not canon, it can't be for reasons already stated (that you conveniently ignored) and are convinced that the dark ritual/OGB should be the end all, be all plot of the series. It's not, David Gaider himself said so.

[Jerrybnsn]

 How could they possibly explain the fact that a grey warden died slaying the archdemon even if Morrigan managed to do the ritual with someone despite the warden refusal? I mean, sure, they could find a way to explain it, but it would be a massive retcon of previously established things that would leave a good number of players...dissatisfied, to say the least.

Maybe it has something to do with Ridoran dying before the archdemon is slayed, .....

 

....or maybe Morrigan wasn't being completely honest in saying how she would save the Grey Warden, or outright lied that you had to do the ritual for to be saved, when in truth there was something she would have to do extra just to save you, let alone the Old God.

 

think about it.  If you knew that Morrigan (maybe through reading Flemeth's real memoire) knew a way to save you, which was separate from saving the archdemon, you could demand she save you or Alistair, but let the archdemon's soul die.  So she could lie so you would think that the ritual was the only way.  It's magic, how much scientific sense does it really have to make?

[Spectre slayer]

The choice you were given to by Morrigan was to be a part of helping her save the Old God's soul.  If you choose not to help her then die, then that was your choice.  Why shouldn't that be respected?  But that doesn't mean she wouldn't have any other options for such a situation.  So yes, the whole "respect my player choice" for no OGB as canon is without foundation.

It does mean exactly that, and Gaider even said as much and yes it would also go against player agency. Respecting our choices is only apart of why we're saying it, Gaider already refuted everything you're saying, and others have refuted your whole smile thing which I don't remember ever seeing and other's including me have posted quotes from him saying exactly what we're saying.

Just let it go.

David Gaider


Joined: 2009-07-16
Report this post Quote   Link Created over 4 years ago
May I put this to rest?

If the player didn't do the Dark Ritual, or didn't get Alistair or Loghain to do it, then it wasn't done. Had Morrigan figured out some way to otherwise do it, then nobody would have died when the Archdemon was slain. If she had some way to go about getting the Archdemon's soul without resorting to the Dark Ritual as she proposed it, then why did she go through all the trouble?

We could undoubtedly come up with some complex Plan B on Morrigan's part whereby she gets the Archdemon's soul but has to do something far more terrible-- but a) that removes the player's agency in the biggest single choice of Origins and would probably be pretty lame

http://social.biowar...index/9628685/3

David Gaider


Joined: 2009-07-16
Report this post Quote   Link Created 7 months ago
I'm not sure where the "but even if they refuse, the other Grey Wardens of the world may not have the same resolve..." comes from. Speculation on the part of the article writer, perhaps? Regardless, if the player refused the Dark Ritual then it was refused. There is no Old God Baby

http://social.biowar.../index/17133997

[AlanC9]

She doesn't. Actually, based on some disapproval gains in the stone prisoner dlc, she doesn't like people who lie, considering that she disapproves if you lie to the little girl's dad and she disapproves if you promise to help the demon and then go back on your word by trying to stop him from possessing the girl.

 

Thanks. That's how I remembered it too. 

 

Where did this meme that Morrigan is deceitful and manipulative come from, anyway? She isn't actually shown to be either.

[AlanC9]

Maybe it has something to do with Ridoran dying before the archdemon is slayed, .....

 

....or maybe Morrigan wasn't being completely honest in saying how she would save the Grey Warden, or outright lied that you had to do the ritual for to be saved, when in truth there was something she would have to do extra just to save you, let alone the Old God.

 

think about it.  If you knew that Morrigan (maybe through reading Flemeth's real memoire) knew a way to save you, which was separate from saving the archdemon, you could demand she save you or Alistair, but let the archdemon's soul die.  So she could lie so you would think that the ritual was the only way.  It's magic, how much scientific sense does it really have to make?

 

Sure. And maybe all of this only exists in your mind.

[Artemis Leonhart]

Thanks. That's how I remembered it too. 

 

Where did this meme that Morrigan is deceitful and manipulative come from, anyway? She isn't actually shown to be either.

You're welcome.

I really don't know, I never saw her as manipulative and deceitful. Pragmatic, yes. Headstrong, maybe. But she never lied to the warden, as far as I know. She respects things like power and apparently honor: when she tells you her mother's tale you have the option of saying "why would you mother seek to avenge his former husband, was she not now married to a richer man?", Morrigan answers "That's not the point, Connobar had no honor so she would not have him."

Modifié par Antaine87, 04 mars 2014 - 07:16 .

[Jerrybnsn]

Morrigan doesn't have demigod power, and the reason why the DR saves the Warden is perfectly clear and logical, as Gaider exained too.
Again, they already stated that the OGB won't be canon. Get over it.

Morrigan reveals herself as being with the party for an ulterior motive.  There it is establish that she isn't just another follower in your party, there to help you succeed.  She has her own agenda.  And she is Morrigan; not Jowan.   You may turn her down, but then the decision was made by Bioware to put the scene where as she leaves you to give a sly smile as if she had another plan and then she is off.  Why was that there?  That in itself is a plotpoint, not in words, but in animation that says we'll find out later (maybe sequel) what she will do once the Warden has denied her request.

 

The original post was, I hope they don't ignore that plot point.  A plot point that was created in the most important part of the story, the twist before the climax.  So if that plot point was put there, if you decided to turn her down, then it by all means must be important.  Just as important as Alistair cringing as his sist---er Morrigan climbs on top of him.

[The Elder King]

Morrigan reveals herself as being with the party for an ulterior motive. There it is establish that she isn't just another follower in your party, there to help you succeed. She has her own agenda. And she is Morrigan; not Jowan. You may turn her down, but then the decision was made by Bioware to put the scene where as she leaves you to give a sly smile as if she had another plan and then she is off. Why was that there? That in itself is a plotpoint, not in words, but in animation that says we'll find out what she will do once the Warden has denied her request.

The original post was, I hope they don't ignore that plot point. A plot point that was created in the most important part of the story, the twist before the climax. So if that plot point was put there, if you decided to turn her down, then it by all means be important. Just as important as Alistair cringing as his sist---er Morrigan climbs on top of him.

1)You still haven't explained how Morrigan would have demigod powers so that she can save the Wardens, since you suggested that saving him wasn't part of the DR;
2)her having a plot and reason to join doesn't mean she had to succeed, and as me and others pointed out, there's no sly smile.
3)Gaider confirmed that the Warden wouldn't have died if she succeeded, so she didn't.
4)Morrigan isn't Alistair's sister. The comics revealed what is that Flemeth wanted from Maric.

[Leo]

   You may turn her down, but then the decision was made by Bioware to put the scene where as she leaves you to give a sly smile as if she had another plan and then she is off.  Why was that there?  That in itself is a plotpoint, not in words, but in animation that says we'll find out later (maybe sequel) what she will do once the Warden has denied her request.

 

 

What smile? It honestly seemed more like a "I can't believe you're such a fool." kind of look.

[Artemis Leonhart]

Morrigan reveals herself as being with the party for an ulterior motive.  There it is establish that she isn't just another follower in your party, there to help you succeed.  She has her own agenda.  And she is Morrigan; not Jowan.   You may turn her down, but then the decision was made by Bioware to put the scene where as she leaves you to give a sly smile as if she had another plan and then she is off.  Why was that there?  That in itself is a plotpoint, not in words, but in animation that says we'll find out later (maybe sequel) what she will do once the Warden has denied her request.

 

The original post was, I hope they don't ignore that plot point.  A plot point that was created in the most important part of the story, the twist before the climax.  So if that plot point was put there, if you decided to turn her down, then it by all means be important.  Just as important as Alistair cringing as his sist---er Morrigan climbs on top of him.

At this point, I'm starting to think that you are either a troll a very, very delusional person. Me and a lot of people explained why the OGB can't be canon and showed you that the smile you keep harping about doesn't exist, and you ignored everything. At this point, the only thing I can say is to prepare yourself to be disappointed if you think that the OGB plot will be made canon or that it will have any extremely important bearing on other games in the series.

[Jerrybnsn]

See, I have trouble with this Archdemon being a soul less vessel as Riordan puts it.  Here's an extract from the wiki:

In -305 Ancient (890 TE), after nearly a century of bitter war against the darkspawn hordes, a group of veteran warriors came together in WeisshauptFortress in the Anderfels, the western part of the Tevinter Imperium. Warden legends sing of their leader Carinus, and the sacrifice the founders made as they tried to save the world while their families perished. It is thought that Nakiri of The Donarks was the one who first suggested imbibing the blood of the darkspawn, as his people were known to consume the blood of their enemies to absorb their power. 

 

All that time and they didn't suss how these things died even though four Archdemons had been killed, I find it difficult to understand that  the wardens knew little of an enemy they had been fighting for centuries, and then some witch comes up with the solution.  Garahel survived one Archdemon and yet Morrigan described his story as "Sordid" 

Good points.  And who was that witch?

[Cutlasskiwi]

All the handwaving that would be required to explain why any of the wardens died would really destroy an intense moment, for me. Both in playthroughs where I did the DR and in playthroughs where I didn't. I think it's better this way since different imports will play out differently. 

[Master Warder Z_]

1)You still haven't explained how Morrigan would have demigod powers so that she can save the Wardens, since you suggested that saving him wasn't part of the DR;
 

 

Demi-God?!

 

Pretender!

 

How dare she attempt to use Rinne Tensei!

[Jerrybnsn]

That "sly smile" you keep talking about could simply be Morrigan going "Ah, what a fool! Wanting to die even if there's an alternative." or "Well, I didn't got to do the ritual but at least that fool of Alistair will be gone forever, good riddance."
 

I see that as more of a shaking your head as you keep walking away at the same pace.   When I see someone move their eyes to the side and smile, that says to me,  "lightbulb!"

[Artemis Leonhart]

I see that as more of a shaking your head as you keep walking away at the same pace.   When I see someone move their eyes to the side and smile, that says to me,  "lightbulb!"

She is not smiling. You're imagining it, go check it on youtube, seriously.

[The Elder King]

Demi-God?!

Pretender!

How dare she attempt to use Rinne Tensei!

I said 'demigod', not 'God', Nagato .

[Master Warder Z_]

I said 'demigod', not 'God', Nagato .

 

 

God is not amused.

[Spectre slayer]

What smile ? Seriously as numerous people have said including me have said she isn't smiling. Hell I even paused and unpaused it then screen shotted it and I didn't see any smile, she turns and stares at you then leaves and shapeshifts.





She wasn't happy that you refused her, and Gaider already said that if they had to do another option it would have to be something terrible, and be very lame which also goes against player agency.

No ritual = dead warden= no ogb

100% confirmed by the devs and there's no way around it.

[Artemis Leonhart]

What smile ? Seriously as numerous people have said including me have said she isn't smiling. Hell I even paused and unpaused it then screen shotted it and I didn't see any smile, she turns and stares at you then leaves and shapeshifts.



She wasn't happy that you refused her, and Gaider already said that if they had to do another option it would have to be something terrible, and be very lame which also goes against player agency.

No ritual = dead warden= no ogb

100% confirmed by the devs and there's no way around it.

Yeah, I wouldn't bother at this point. He/she doesn't seem to get it and actively ignores all the posts that disproves his/her headcanon.

[Uccio]

That's your perspective.
 
And i am glad Bioware doesn't share it.
 
Given i have never created that abomination to begin with; Would be pissed with that choice just being casually overridden.

OGB is not a abomination. He is a human with a soul of god.

[RosaAquafire]

 

 

That is definitely not a smile. That's a glare.

 

In some of my games, including my "canon" game, I did the Dark Ritual. In some of my games, I did US or Alistair or Loghain died. The choice to literally die so Morrigan cannot get that baby is huge. The only reason to refuse the Dark Ritual is if you think that Morrigan is not to be trusted and that the OGB is something inherently evil. If Morrigan just goes and gets the baby anyway, despite the fact that your player character literally, again, died so that she couldn't, that would, indeed, be hugely disrespectful of player choice.

[Artemis Leonhart]

 

 

 

That is definitely not a smile. That's a glare.

 

In some of my games, including my "canon" game, I did the Dark Ritual. In some of my games, I did US or Alistair or Loghain died. The choice to literally die so Morrigan cannot get that baby is huge. The only reason to refuse the Dark Ritual is if you think that Morrigan is not to be trusted and that the OGB is something inherently evil. If Morrigan just goes and gets the baby anyway, despite the fact that your player character literally, again, died so that she couldn't, that would, indeed, be hugely disrespectful of player choice.

 

Yep, that's the famous "disapproval glare" that Morrigan has when you do something that she's not happy about, and definitely not a smile...but try to explain that to the OP.
And yes, making Morrigan do the dark ritual despite the warden's refusal would be like literally stepping on the toes of every player that has not chosen the DR as an ending. It would be a massive retcon and Gaider himself said that they won't do it. But I don't think the OP will ever be convinced of this.

[TK514]

I'm not even sure why people think the OGB would be a good thing. You'd be saving the soul of an entity that helped encourage an Empire to turn to Blood Magic and Slavery, and later to brutally torture and murder thousands of those slaves so a select few could try to steal the power of a theoretical creator deity, potentially resulting in the most horrific threat to all life on Thedas ever.

Further, she offers no real insight or explanation into how taking said soul from a tainted vessel and putting it into another tainted vessel would result in an uncorrupted being.

Honestly, entire premise and expected outcomes of the DR don't seem particularly well thought out.

And that doesn't even begin to address the dubious wisdom of giving a child, godlike being or not, to an absurd misanthrope like Morrigan to raise completely as she sees fit with absolutely zero outside influence. Particularly when she flat out refuses to tell you her end game. And there's just not a whole lot of reasons to extend trust, or blind faith, to a woman who, regardless of her own dubious moral character, tries to extort what she wants from you the evening before everyone you know might die, and at least one person you know WILL die.

[MisterJB]

 

 

God is not amused.

Lol.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I'm not even sure why people think the OGB would be a good thing. You'd be saving the soul of an entity that helped encourage an Empire to turn to Blood Magic and Slavery, and later to brutally torture and murder thousands of those slaves so a select few could try to steal the power of a theoretical creator deity, potentially resulting in the most horrific threat to all life on Thedas ever.

Further, she offers no real insight or explanation into how taking said soul from a tainted vessel and putting it into another tainted vessel would result in an uncorrupted being.

Honestly, entire premise and expected outcomes of the DR don't seem particularly well thought out.

And that doesn't even begin to address the dubious wisdom of giving a child, godlike being or not, to an absurd misanthrope like Morrigan to raise completely as she sees fit with absolutely zero outside influence. Particularly when she flat out refuses to tell you her end game. And there's just not a whole lot of reasons to extend trust, or blind faith, to a woman who, regardless of her own dubious moral character, tries to extort what she wants from you the evening before everyone you know might die, and at least one person you know WILL die.

 

Well how do you know that old gods did it not just tevinter in their name?As far we know that dumat was 1 who tricked tevinter but how do we know what with other old gods.We don't know much about them besides what chantry who is already hostile toward old gods.Unless it is done cheap that every of them must be "evil" like tevinter every of them could have own personality.And even then it is soul you take not personality or views of them.  

 

When i doubt that will have positive outcome simple because it would be pure profit it that didn't had any i don't think that automatically make it "evil" yet i think with morrigan views and probably she will be only influence on that child will have i can't see nothing good rising from that child.