319 réponses à ce sujet

[Hanako Ikezawa]

  

That's not entirely accurate since we can do the ritual with any race in DAO, so it would half to be an elf blooded or a slightly taller dwarf according to Gaider who talked about how an human+ dwarf would produce a taller dwarf, while and elf and a human will produce an elf blooded human that looks human due to many thing's.

Point remains, those are all humans. What about those who don't want to play as a human? Or a male? 

[Gold Dragon]

IF, and I do mean *IF*, the OGB (or lack thereof) becomes the central figure of a plot, it would be in DLC.  Either Stand alone such As Lelianna's Song, Or additional storyline, such as Warden's Keep or Stone Prisoner.

 

Enough people have not done the DR to make a main chapter (such as Inquisition will be) unacceptable at best.

[SleepyBird]

Point remains, those are all humans. What about those who don't want to play as a human? Or a male?

If a Dragon Age game was released where the on,y player option was OGB male, I just wouldn't have any interest in buying tht game. I think I am not lone in tht opinion...

[Jerrybnsn]

I still say it's a missed golden opportunity to bring forth the OGB and its ramifications into the series.  It'll will be underwhelming if a decision like that is nothing more than just a cameo appearance or just a mention.  Aliastairs concerns at the end of the game has that foreshadowing element.

[Jerrybnsn]

The DR refuse'ers are up in arms that they avoided it for whatever reason and don't want it changed. Fair enough, but you can't simply ask those that de the DR to take their lumps when events that significant get written into nothingness.

Those quotes from DG made it sound like either way there will be something juicy for both camps. But the reality is it can't be as juicy as the OGB deserves, nor can it be that big for those that refused.

"it can't be as juicy as the OGB deserves". That was exactly my point of this thread. The plot point was at the most crucial part of the game, that to demean it into a companion quest and to have it as nothing more than a simple codex appearance is going to devalue that moment of the DAO, and upset a lot of expectations.

I saw that decision during that moment as choosing between life and death. Not necessarily disrupting Morrigan's purpose Those decisions can be respected and still move Morrigan's, who revels herself as a separate character apart from the warden, own agenda. That,again, is why I'm surprise that didn't just make it canon.

Perhaps it is the expectations from fans like me who expect this game to be something it's not; a series which has continuity and deep emotional investment. But it looks like that continuity and emotional investment are getting left in Dragon Age Origins.

[Andraste_Reborn]

Perhaps it is the expectations from fans like me who expect this game to be something it's not; a series which has continuity and deep emotional investment. But it looks like that continuity and emotional investment are getting left in Dragon Age Origins.

 

But, see, MY continuity and emotional investment would be disruppted if it turned out my ultimate sacrifice Wardens died for no reason.

 

I agree that BioWare may have painted themselves into a corner one this issue - but I would absolutely hate it if it turned out that, hey, Morrigan just managed to get the Old Gold soul anyway, no big deal. Never mind that the PC (or Alistair or Loghain) died to destroy it forever.

[Ieldra]

Since almost everyone appears to have calmed down a bit, maybe I may post my take on things:

I am one of those who likes the DR. My main Warden would probably have done it even had it not saved his life. I just find the idea of the OGB interesting and would like to see it explored.

However, I would not want the OGB to be made canon. This would make the decision in DAO meaningless in the larger scheme of things and reduce its meaning to how it defines the Warden who makes it. Such a way to handle a decision is valid, since we never control how the world reacts to our decisions, but it is not what I would prefer.

Now David Gaider has confirmed the OGB won't be canon. Fine with me, but does that mean the decision will be relegated to insignificance? No, it does not at all mean that. It is actually extremely easy to create a setup where the OGB has great plot significance. As a comparison, in ME3 it would've been easy to not just make the Control option easier to achieve if you saved the Collector Base in ME2, but to disable it completely if you didn't. To adapt the story to fit a scenario where the OGB has great significance is a little more work, but by no means impossible, nor even outrageously difficult.

Will Bioware actually do something like that? Now that's a question not so easy to answer. Here's what I see as influence factors:

(-) DAI needs to stand on its own as a game. It has its own plot, and needs to focus on it. That would mean that plot elements of earlier games have a limited influence on it. Also, it is very likely that the majority of DAI's players won't have played DAO, or if they have, most won't remember what they did five years ago. We need to consider that we are hardcore fans, an extremist faction, so to speak.

(+) On the other hand, the DA Keep will make it easy to configure the world state to your liking even if you never finished DAO. That would make it more likely that decisions of DAO can be given more influence. Also, Bioware's telemetry data show that a majority of players of DAO did the DR (this information is old, I hope it's still valid), and even if they won't constitute the majority of DAI players, they are a significant part of the playerbase. Bioware will want to give them something. Also, the default setting of the Dalish Warden who did the US combines the least-chosen DAO origin with the least-chosen endgame decision. Why would that be? Certainly not because Bioware favors it for some mysterious reason. It could be designed as a motivation to play the other games, or to set the default apart from the imported games as much as possible, or to give some weight to decisions rarely made by players, I don't know. Regardless, that the default setup is Dalish Warden who did the US is insignificant as a factor against the OGB decision being important.

(+/-) As usual, Bioware will want to create outcomes that are not good or bad per se, but good or bad depending on the personal ideologies of the player characters who make the decisions. For that to be successful, they need to answer two questions:
"What kind out of outcome is thematically appropriate for a scenario with an OGB?" and "Which kind of player would do the DR, and what kind of outcome would appeal to them?", and the same for the other branches of the decision. There is a great deal of YMMV in the answers, and therein lies the risk of failure. Namely, that those players an outcome associated with the OGB is made for won't like it.
If they gauge their player base correctly, the likely result will be that the presence of the OGB factors positively into an outcome likely to be chosen by those who did the DR, and its absence factors positively into an outcome likely to be chosen by those who didn't do the DR, similar to how killing Wrex made it possible to fool the krogan successfully in ME3, and the alternative decisions factored positively into a cure scenario.
Here as there, the problem lies in the fact that not all players associate the same things with the DR, nor do they make the decision for similar reasons. Is the DR more for people with a pragmatic mindset? For people with a "pro old mysteries" viewpoint? For those whose Wardens romanced Morrigan?

(+/-) Then there's the writers artistic vision to consider. Don't explode, please. I know the term has acquired a bad taste after ME3, but worldbuilding and storytelling is art, with or without commercial interests, and regardless of any level of player agency you might put into a game. The creators of Thedas and the writers of the stories have their own vision they'll want to present. If there isn't a writer who finds the idea of the OGB interesting the result will probably be less interesting than it could've been, and if they all regard the DR as evil they'll be hard-pressed to write an outcome satisfying to those who don't agree with that assessment.

So what will it be? No idea, really. The scope of influence of the OGB decision is circumscribed by the fact that Morrigan is a prominent NPC in DAI at the lower end and the fact that the main plot must have a satisfying story and outcome in the absence of the OGB. This still leaves a great range of possibilities, especially if you consider that the main story without the OGB can be satisfying not just in spite of the absence of the OGB, but it can be written as being satisfying because of its absence, leaving open the possibility of an alternative scenario that is satisfying exactly because of its presence.

My main worry at this point is not that the decision will have less consequences than we might wish for, but that the DR is regarded as evil by the writers, and that this will have an influence on the outcomes. The other worry is that the DR is seen as representative of a "pro-old mysteries" mindset, and a non-OGB scenario representative of a "pro-modernity" mindset. So, thematic considerations are much more in my mind than the question of how significant the OGB will be in the end. I'll be content with a smaller influence if the direction appeals to me, and I'm firmly convinced the OGB will have more narrative presence than a Codex entry.

[Arcanis]

After reading through the thread I wanted to ask something..

 

What makes the "OGB" so special?

Not for the players, but for the world. It is a roughly 10 year old child and it has something described

as an old gods soul. But do we really know what kind of power a soul gives anything?

We don't even know what a soul is in the first place..

For all we know it could boost the childs talent in magic.

 

I.e. Morrigan has a child with a warden but he refused the DR - thus the child lacks the soul-

      S/he (yes I still believe the gender is not necessarily male) might still be a mage but a weaker one.

      If the warden did the ritual, the child is a mage with much more power. What is the difference between

     these two scenarios? Just the amount of power and that is something that could be achieved through

    through other means if need be. If there was no pregnant Morrigan, then she maybe steals a child, who knows.

 

We don't know what her (or Flemeth) plan is (or was) and why she wanted the child in the first place.

I personally doubt she did it just to become a child, but that she has some sort of greater plan.

Thus the refusal is a setback - nothing more and nothing less.

 

 

Anyways, ramblings aside, unless BioWare explains to us what it MEANS to have an old gods soul, we don't

really know what difference it makes and how big that plotpoint is in the first place...

[Mir Aven]

The choice you were given to by Morrigan was to be a part of helping her save the Old God's soul.  If you choose not to help her then die, then that was your choice.  Why shouldn't that be respected?  But that doesn't mean she wouldn't have any other options for such a situation.  So yes, the whole "respect my player choice" for no OGB as canon is without foundation.

It's not withought foundation. My Warden refused the Dark Ritual not because he didn't want to be a "daddy", not because he like the though of being a Martyr. He chose the sacrifice so the Archdemon would be killed withought the creation of the abnomination (the OGB). If Bioware suddenly decided to make the OGB cannon they would make my Warden's sacrifice meaningless.

[Mir Aven]

The Sacrifice is just as much a pain to play with. You can't even play DAO DLC with a sacrificed Warden. If your Warden is dead, and you start a new Awakening game, it's the Orlesian Warden. But then, these are seperate save files that can't go into DA2 together.

 

If you ask me, it's all a mess. Dark Ritual, Sacrifice, whatever.

I agree,  I hate endings where the protagonist dies but this time I found the Dark Ritual worse.

[wright1978]

My main worry at this point is not that the decision will have less consequences than we might wish for, but that the DR is regarded as evil by the writers, and that this will have an influence on the outcomes. The other worry is that the DR is seen as representative of a "pro-old mysteries" mindset, and a non-OGB scenario representative of a "pro-modernity" mindset. So, thematic considerations are much more in my mind than the question of how significant the OGB will be in the end. I'll be content with a smaller influence if the direction appeals to me, and I'm firmly convinced the OGB will have more narrative presence than a Codex entry.

 

Agree I don't want the Old Gods or the OGB to be slapped with a simplistic evil label. How i'd like to see the OGB presented is dangerous & rather alien in nature with room for player interpretation to be seen either as a future threat or a future opportunity.

[Ieldra]

After reading through the thread I wanted to ask something..

 

What makes the "OGB" so special? Not for the players, but for the world. It is a roughly 10 year old child and it has something described as an old gods soul. But do we really know what kind of power a soul gives anything? We don't even know what a soul is in the first place. For all we know it could boost the childs talent in magic.

 

Morrigan has a child with a warden but he refused the DR - thus the child lacks the soul- S/he (yes I still believe the gender is not necessarily male) might still be a mage but a weaker one. If the warden did the ritual, the child is a mage with much more power. What is the difference between these two scenarios? Just the amount of power and that is something that could be achieved through through other means if need be. If there was no pregnant Morrigan, then she maybe steals a child, who knows.

 

We don't know what her (or Flemeth) plan is (or was) and why she wanted the child in the first place. I personally doubt she did it just to become a child, but that she has some sort of greater plan.Thus the refusal is a setback - nothing more and nothing less.

 

Anyways, ramblings aside, unless BioWare explains to us what it MEANS to have an old gods soul, we don't really know what difference it makes and how big that plotpoint is in the first place...

We don't know what makes it special, that's why it's so important that we find out. We know Morrigan considered it significant to have a child with the soul of an Old God, whatever that means. Morrigan comes across as not making small plans, so there's a reasonable expectation of seeing it as significant for more than just her.

 

Witch Hunt says it's a boy, BTW.

[Ieldra]

The Sacrifice is just as much a pain to play with. You can't even play DAO DLC with a sacrificed Warden. If your Warden is dead, and you start a new Awakening game, it's the Orlesian Warden. But then, these are seperate save files that can't go into DA2 together.

 

If you ask me, it's all a mess. Dark Ritual, Sacrifice, whatever. Personally, I don't mind Loghain sacrificing himself in my place.. loved that idea. Except now I'm hearing something about how Loghain is supposed to be dead in the comics? WTF.

The comics need to use some specific variant of the storyline. Doesn't mean anything for your game. Should DAI refer to Loghain as dead - and not from the Archdemon killing - with your imported world-state, then you have reason t complain.

 

BTW, they use "Dalish Warden who make the US" as the canon for their books and comics. Again, that doesn't mean anything for your worldline. They've selected one version of the many possible versions of the story because as opposed to a game, you can't write a book or comic with variable world-states.

 

Sometimes I think people just don't understand what having variable worldlines means. They expect all published material to be consistent with every possible world-state. That's impossible.

 

Oh, and if you ask "So didn't the book/comic events happen in my wordline?", the answer is "I don't know, probably some variant of those events took place, if at all possible under the constraints of your world state.

[Ieldra]

It's not that I mind that they have a canon. It's that they chose Sacrifice for their canon -- and it's impossible for anyone to actually have a Sacrifice type of playthrough that is similar. Their Ultimate Sacrifice "canon" also includes Awakening choices, but it's impossible to play that way. If I want a Warden with sacrifice, I'm better off going with theirs.

Impossible it is.....not! This may help you with your problem:

 

 

Have fun!

 

BTW: why would you want to play Bioware's canon in the first place, if that isn't your preference for unrelated reasons?

[Jack Druthers]

I agree about the painted into a corner comment, which is about the same as saying the Warden had 30 years to live after the joining.  These ideas were constructed years ago, people make decisions when writing stories, some of which come back and bite.  End of the day, it's their story.

 

Not only that, it shows that seeing as people are here on a daily basis talking about a game that has still several months to  go to release and  has been about four years in development that players invest themselves into their PC.  I can understand why the DR debate rages as much as the Mages/Templars debate.

 

If it turns out that the writers decided that the DR/save the life of whoever does the killing blow was an evil option whereas the US/kills Alistair, Loghain or the Warden is the good option, I guess we all have to live with it and move on.   Your particular PC will make their own story and corresponding decisions no matter the view.

 

Surely the devs have implemented something to The Keep so that the imports will reflect this, to sort out what others have said about being unable to  play Awakening.  I've not played an Orlesian Warden so I don't know.  

[archangel1996]

They are truly screwed up, they can't make a plot involving the OGB because he could not exist but they can not put him in a corner and never use him again either. Then there is the fact that the OGB is on of the biggest deals in the whole serie so they decide to address the issue and make him a character in the game they have to do it right, simply put they can't go the "Iron Man 3" route. To make things even worse there are also the US and the normal baby(romance Morrigan/DR but don't bring her along in the final fight and she will have a child anyway, just normal) to take in account

[Ieldra]

They are truly screwed up, they can't make a plot involving the OGB because he could not exist but they can not put him in a corner and never use him again either. Then there is the fact that the OGB is on of the biggest deals in the whole serie so they decide to address the issue and make him a character in the game they have to do it right, simply put they can't go the "Iron Man 3" route. To make things even worse there are also the US and the normal baby(romance Morrigan/DR but don't bring her along in the final fight and she will have a child anyway, just normal) to take in account

Read my extended answer on the previous page. Nobody is screwed up.

[SleepyBird]

BTW, they use "Dalish Warden who make the US" as the canon for their books and comics

I heard a lot of people say this, but is it ever really implemented in the books? I've only read a few comics, and they didn't mention the race or gender of the warden that I can remember at all. Yes, Alistair is alive and king, but I can't recall any direct reference to whether or not the warden is alive. Are there any specific references to the warden in the books?

[Jerrybnsn]

I don't mind dying per se. I just hate that choosing to sacrifice borks your ability to import correctly into Awakening/Golems/Witch Hunt. It's like having all of that DLC for nothing. And if I try to play it seperately, then that DLC save file is worthless for a DA2 import, since it doesn't recognize my DAO Warden.
 
Choosing the Dark Ritual or getting Loghain to sacrifice are better for importing. You get to play the DLCs with a sense of continuity this way. Except now these stories amount to nothing too apparently.

And you don't get the statue that you were promised by Alistair at your funeral.

[Jerrybnsn]

I heard a lot of people say this, but is it ever really implemented in the books? I've only read a few comics, and they didn't mention the race or gender of the warden that I can remember at all. Yes, Alistair is alive and king, but I can't recall any direct reference to whether or not the warden is alive. Are there any specific references to the warden in the books?

I only read the Warden mentioned twice in the post Dragon Age Origins book Asunder. Wynn mentions once that she received a magical staff that the other mages are impressed with as a gift from The Warden. And another time she mentions fighting along side the Hero of Ferelden against the archdemon on top of Fort Drakon. That's it. No gender, race or class, and other than fighting the archdemon, nothing about possible warden's decisions that could have been considered canon. Other than the fact that you didn't kill Wynn at the circle when you told her to wait for the annulment. So saving the circle can be considered canon.