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I think ME2 is my favorite of the series


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#126
Ieldra

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Because the Reapers suck as an enemy.  Look at what happened in ME3: "Uh...uh...MAGICAL PLOT DEVICE!"  They're simply beyond the scope of what can be reasonably fought.  Conventional armies don't matter.  Special forces don't matter.  Reverse engineered Reaper technology with a galactic fleet doesn't matter.  You lose except for the Crucible according to the authors.  They're not interesting to fight precisely because they cannot be fought.

 

ME2, though, is about a foe you CAN take on with the right preparation and choices.  It still has the best ending sequence of any game I've ever seen in terms of making your choices affect what happens.

Quite some time ago, I wrote a scenario about how we might expect the Reapers to be beaten, by a combination of reverse-engineering their technology, suicidal operations, classic space battles and ultimately subverting their central command (that was before we knew any ME3 spoilers about the Catalyst). It can be done. It isn't even hard. That the ME3 writing team didn't bother to present us with a believable scenario doesn't invalidate the Reapers as an enemy. 


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#127
MagicalMaster

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It can be done. It isn't even hard. That the ME3 writing team didn't bother to present us with a believable scenario doesn't invalidate the Reapers as an enemy. 

 

The writers dictated as canon that the Reapers cannot possibly be defeated conventionally.  If the Reapers were written differently (like just super powerful versus god-like) then yes, a galactic fleet with reverse engineered technology and all could have worked...but they weren't.  So the question is moot.

 

And even then it would be a battle fought with starships rather than soldiers on the ground, so they'd still stink as an actual enemy to fight, gameplay wise.



#128
capn233

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^ I tend to agree.  While the mystery of the Reapers and what happened to the Protheans was interesting in ME1 when it was new, the Reapers as an enemy were a huge problem.  Of course they didn't have to worry about it in ME1 since you don't fight the Reapers.  You fight the Geth, led by Saren.  Sure, Saren is working for the Reapers and causing trouble in the Attican Traverse, but you don't have to fight the Reapers directly.  One whole Reaper appears in the game and is killed indirectly.  I also share the view that the retcon of how Sovereign was killed was disappointing.  Ah well.

 

I don't find much issue with the main structure of ME2 when you ignore Arrival.  At the ME1 the Reapers are presumably trapped in dark space.  That what the entire final act is about, preventing their use of the Citadel relay and marooning them there with the help of Vigil.  There was no way to know how long it would take for them to get to the Milky Way via their own FTL, and so I don't take issue with the central antagonist being Reaper proxies who were already in the galaxy.  Especially since the actual enemy in ME1 were Reaper proxies.  Saren and the Geth also had killed far fewer humans than the Collectors when you start your mission against him, and somehow people complain about ME2 not having a worthwhile objective.  As far as you know the Reapers are trapped in dark space, but the Collectors are here, now, abducting entire colonies of humans.  Sure the game could have been about any number of things, but it wasn't.

 

I also disagree with the notion that the "Reapers were basically here" at the end of ME2, pre Arrival.  I wasn't on the writing team, but I seriously doubt they intended them to be close until they started outlining the plot for ME3.  In fact look at the cinematic after the Suicide Mission.  Does that look like they are close?  If you said yes, I will give you some perspective.

 

Sovereign and Harbinger are about 2 kilometers long.  The Milky Way is 9.5x10^17 kilometers across.  Or about 500 quadrillion times larger than a Reaper.  I have trouble reconciling the end cinematic with things like "close" or "doorstep."  If they were close, we would either simply not see them if the camera is as far from the MWG as it appears, or the MWG would essentially not be visible on the whole if the camera were that close to the Reapers.

 

When they decided to retcon the end of ME1 and potentially the end of ME2 with ME3, they created their "bridge" DLC, which was Arrival.  This was easily the weakest part of ME2, even weaker than the Lazarus Project, which actually could be fixed with basically one or two dialogue tweaks.

 

I always hesitate to lump in the Arrival plot conundrum with ME2's plot because it has absolutely nothing to do with ME2's plot and everything to do with ME3's.  If you think it invalidates any part of the ME2 plot, then your logic also can be used to show that it invalidates ME1's plot as well.

 

I honestly don't think ME3 would have been any weaker if they would have simply found another group to serve as the Reaper's proxies in ME3, who were building a force to take the Citadel and activate the relay for them.  And avoid the Reapers altogether.  The Reapers have been built up as nearly unbeatable, if not individually certainly as a whole.  The only reason anybody had a chance to beat them was because the Protheans were able to sabotage the Citadel and prevent them from showing up in the first place.

 

The funny thing is ME3 is practically like that anyway.  Cerberus is the new Reaper proxy force, and you fight them more often than the "Reapers."  They even have a fairly charismatic but indoctrinated leader named Saren, I mean Illusive Man.  The Reapers fighting in the galaxy now and attacking Earth doesn't hardly change the game.  You can almost argue the only reason they show up at the beginning was so they could create their gritty "war torn" atmosphere that they were set on.

 

Of course in game it gives you a reason to run around and put out little fires for various factions to get them on the anti-Reaper bandwagon.  But it isn't like there couldn't have been other creative ways to have you solve the Council-Krogan or Quarian-Geth conflict.

 

One final thought since this is getting long.  I am not sure how an extended LOTSB plot for ME2 would actually work out unless you completely retcon the Shadow Broker from ME1.  To some extent they did that anyway, the whole "he's not a threat to anyone, at least not directly" or whatever line Anderson says.  Just going after him because Liara wants revenge doesn't make much sense.  The only thing I could think of that might be an interesting way to run with that plot would be to either make the Shadow Broker a Reaper, or maybe an AI that predates the Reapers.



#129
Vazgen

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The writers dictated as canon that the Reapers cannot possibly be defeated conventionally.  If the Reapers were written differently (like just super powerful versus god-like) then yes, a galactic fleet with reverse engineered technology and all could have worked...but they weren't.  So the question is moot.

 

And even then it would be a battle fought with starships rather than soldiers on the ground, so they'd still stink as an actual enemy to fight, gameplay wise.

Reapers as a whole can't be beaten conventionally. They come after 50000 years to guarantee that - civilizations end up depending on their technology but not advance enough to have a chance at beating them.

Individual Reapers can be destroyed though and it's shown in at least two cases - Sovereign and the Derelict Reaper. 

They are not god-like, they are just leagues ahead any technology at that time. They can still die though :)



#130
CptFalconPunch

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"I don't agree with what you're saying therefore you're trolling"

Nice attitude. 

 

Yeah, you see you can't say that without ignoring my previous paragraphs debunking your weak logic. In fact it was so weak I geniunely though you were being sarcastic.

 

So yeah, don't know when you'll start to think a bit more.

 

 

As for the end of ME2, come on you can see the reapers closing in on our galaxy and its pretty much clear enough that the next game is going to have conflict.

I mean if they could close in from DARK SPACE to the boarders of the galaxy so soon, hell that distance depicted in the end is nothing.

 

Although we both know, accurate representations in cinematics aren't something that Bioware excells at. Rule of cool.



#131
CptFalconPunch

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Reapers as a whole can't be beaten conventionally. They come after 50000 years to guarantee that - civilizations end up depending on their technology but not advance enough to have a chance at beating them.

Individual Reapers can be destroyed though and it's shown in at least two cases - Sovereign and the Derelict Reaper. 

They are not god-like, they are just leagues ahead any technology at that time. They can still die though :)

I think that the Deux Ex machina is a pretty good concept that can work here. They should have gone differently since ME2 then, have you scourge the galaxy for its parts, maybe even have a reason to chase the collectors! Use their base for parts etc. And then all those decisions and work go into the ending of ME3. You feel involved and your choices matter.

See, its a problem with execution.



#132
capn233

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Maybe you should write some fan fiction for an alternative to ME2.


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#133
CptFalconPunch

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Maybe you should write some fan fiction for an alternative to ME2.

 

Ok, I get the message  :angry:  :lol:



#134
Darius M.

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As for the OP, Mass Effect 2 would've been hands down my favorite entry in the series were it not for one little detail:

 

The fight with the Virmire Survivor on Horizon (ESPECIALLY IF ROMANCED IN ME1). 

 

Wow I could literally type until my fingers bleed about this topic, but I'll spare you that and give you the short version. :)  Let's forget for a second that I saved their lives, and the lives of a good chunk of the colony. I don't demand flowers, but a "Thank you" wouldn't kill them. Let's forget for a second that thanks to my intervention, we have the first real evidence we see of who is hitting our colonies... 

 

The fact is that this is a person that we have been through dozens of firefights with, dozens of adventures with, and is someone we have worked with to save ALL ORGANIC LIFE! Especially if you shared a night with this person, the fact that not only do they suddenly not trust you, but are ANGRY with you blows my mind. This person that you have trusted, (and possibly loved) now despises you and feels betrayed simply on merit of Cerberus. Shepard "dying" wasn't part of some devious plot, he/she was killed trying to save their crippled pilot from the blast. He/she has been unconscious for the last 2 years, but VS don't want to hear it. Some half-ass little email after doesn't fix this. Like I said, I have about 4 more paragraphs on the subject but I'll stop it here. Sorry by the way.

 

It really is a shame because I thought ME2 was really on the cusp of being the best game I had EVER played up until that moment. The rest of the game is amazing and great depending on who you ask, but this scene just KILLS the game for me. 



#135
Jukaga

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That is why many of us hate the VS for their blind stupidity and happily feed them a bullet during the coup, or if feeling merciful pack them off to Hackett with a big capital L painted on their foreheads as complete and utter failures as SPECTREs. They are both so over their heads that I'm surprised Hackett can find any use for them besides cannon fodder.


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#136
Farangbaa

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ME2 is a glorified Dr. Phil-simulator.

 

It's not a bad game, but it has no place in the whole Reaper plot.

 

and no matter how cool the suicide mission is, it's completely ruined by the baby Reaper.



#137
Ieldra

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The writers dictated as canon that the Reapers cannot possibly be defeated conventionally.  If the Reapers were written differently (like just super powerful versus god-like) then yes, a galactic fleet with reverse engineered technology and all could have worked...but they weren't.  So the question is moot.


Not so. My scenario was based on subverting their central command in order to make them vulnerable in a similar way Sovereign was in ME1. It was very much lore-compliant at the time it was written (ie before ME3). I'll post a link once I get back to my PC, then you can judge for yourself.

#138
sjsharp2011

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ME2 is my favourite as well I love all 3 games but ME2 is probably the best overall package between graphics gameplay and story My favourite mission is the Shadow broker mission my fave from ME1 is probably Virmire and from ME3 probably the cure the genophage mission.



#139
Tommy6860

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ME2 is my favourite as well I love all 3 games but ME2 is probably the best overall package between graphics gameplay and story My favourite mission is the Shadow broker mission my fave from ME1 is probably Virmire and from ME3 probably the cure the genophage mission.

 

Not sure if serious or not. Anyway, graphically, ME2 is one ugly game. Outside of character faces, the lo-res anti-AA graphics make ME1 look like a high quality visual. The story, gameplay and all that opinion-y stuff is completely subjective.



#140
TurianRebel212

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Agreed. ME2 is EASILY the best in the series. And I think one of the greatest games ever made and probably the best single player game I've ever played, up there with RE4, HL2 and RDR. Amazing game.