266 réponses à ce sujet

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

What a silly question. What's the 'point' of having combat gameplay in any game? What's the 'point' of defeating any enemy in combat and not just using a cutscene for every victory?

 

No. You just asked a silly question. Combat where you stand a chance of winning is different than a situation with the "boss that cheats."  In the former, your skills matter. In the latter, they don't. Sure you can get killed and play around with it for an hour or two if your difficulty is up high enough or if the fight is tough enough, but then you get to the end only to be defeated. What a waste of time. It's frustrating, and I hate video game fights like that. 

 

Also with the Thessia situation, MY Shepard would have blown Kai Leng away when he approached initially.

[wolfhowwl]

People would have been more accepting if Bioware had completed some basic things:

Kai Leng should have been established as a competent threat to the player earlier. Instead he is a buffoon who is driven off by a dying lizard.

Bioware should have devoted time to characterizing him for those who didn't read the books (99% of players). Who is this guy, why should I care? If he is going to be my rival who defeats me he needs to be compelling.

Kai Leng should have actually done something when you fight him. On Thessia he often just sits there and recharges his shields. How am I supposed to see that as a threat? Did anyone ever feel like they were in danger fighting him?

[Bob from Accounting]

Exactly. But that is reasonable in the context of the fight.

Sudden cutscene incompetence coupled with sudden cutscene badassness isn't.

 

You seem to be unclear on the concept of 'fair fight.'

 

In a 'fair fight,' the enemy does not have the 'contextual' ability to knock the player out with an energy burst or something of the sort. Such things are off the table. And your solution is thus not applicable.
 

[von uber]

Did anyone ever feel like they were in danger fighting him?

 

Yes, because I kept using freecam to take screenshots which meant I died a few times trying to set up decent views of ingame action.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

People would have been more accepting if Bioware had completed some basic things:

Kai Leng should have been established as a competent threat to the player earlier. Instead he is a buffoon who is driven off by a dying lizard.

Bioware should have devoted time to characterizing him for those who didn't read the books (99% of players). Who is this guy, why should I care? If he is going to be my rival who defeats me he needs to be compelling.

Kai Leng should have actually done something when you fight him. On Thessia he often just sits there and recharges his shields. How am I supposed to see that as a threat? Did anyone ever feel like they were in danger fighting him?

Bold print. I didn't give a **** about Kai Leng. He wasn't a compelling character. Not at all. There was only one moment in the game where he was a danger until you mastered the tuck and roll move and that was on Cronos.

[Argolas]

And what if the writers don't want the battle to be 'unfair'? What if that's precisely the point? What if they want the protagonist to be defeated in a fair fight with his nemesis? To be weaker?

 

It's really funny to think about the Kai Leng example here for several reasons, but in a general way they could still make the fight impossible to win. Just make the Nemesis faster, stronger than the player. If he is indeed stronger and wins a fair fight then this has to be possible to translate into game mechanics. A simple solution for Mass Effect would be not giving the player any cover.

[Bob from Accounting]

It's really funny to think about the Kai Leng example here for several reasons, but in a general way they could still make the fight impossible to win. Just make the Nemesis faster, stronger than the player. If he is indeed stronger and wins a fair fight then this has to be possible to translate into game mechanics. A simple solution for Mass Effect would be not giving the player any cover.

No, it doesn't 'have' to be possible to translate into game mechanics at all. For the very simple reason that game mechanics are by necessity a massive simplification of combat. Many, many, many elements of combat are simply off the table for gameplay combat and will be for the foreseeable future and possibly forever. There's only so much control you can give a player over the protagonist's body with a controller with a dozen buttons.

[von uber]

There's only so much control you can give a player over the protagonist's body with a controller with a dozen buttons.

 

Unless you use a keyboard in combination with mouse of course.

My mouse alone has 4 buttons and a scroll wheel, using standard wsad movement puts my hand in easy reach of another 15 keys..

[DeinonSlayer]

Not sure if it's been brought up yet, but the "last stand" in Arrival comes to mind.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Not sure if it's been brought up yet, but the "last stand" in Arrival comes to mind.

 

This may be a double standard but I always considered making it to the end of the Last Stand a different scenario. Given that making it to the end earns an Achievement (for those of us on X Box), it seems like the developers intended (for lack of a better word) for Shepard to never make it that far.

 

Like somehow a meta-game acknowledgement of you being a bad-ass makes it better.

[DeinonSlayer]

If a player character is going to be defeated in combat, i.e. has absolutely no chance of winning the fight, is going to be defeated no matter what fancy set of twitch skills or equipment they have to use for that particular section, I'd rather just run the entire thing as a cut scene. I mean what the hell is the point otherwise than wasting the player's time?

Saw a YouTube video of someone who, in the original Starcraft, built a base which could survive the zerg wave at the end of the mission where the Psi Emitter is used to draw the Zerg to Tarsonis (bastards) and Kerrigan is abandoned. Someone found a way to get all of the gold out of the Sierra Madre vault in New Vegas when the intent was that picking up even two bars would weigh you down and slow you to the point that the vault would seal before you could escape. People will always find ways to beat the "scripted defeat," and usually it's part of the fun. The problem with Leng is that it's so easy to kick his ass up one wall and down the other until the game dictates you lose, and then the tone afterwards shows you're supposed to feel as though you were crushed by him.

At least in the scripted sequence with Saren, Shepard gets some good licks in.

[Bob from Accounting]

Not sure if it's been brought up yet, but the "last stand" in Arrival comes to mind.

 

As a good or bad example?

 

It certainly doesn't serve as a good example. It's not exactly a fair fight if the enemy has the ability to emit an energy burst that can knock out the protagonist.

[DeinonSlayer]

As a good or bad example?
 
It certainly doesn't serve as a good example. It's not exactly a fair fight if the enemy has the ability to emit an energy burst that can knock out the protagonist.

It still beats Kai Leng at Thessia.

"I need to recharge!"
*Adas anti-synthetic rifle*
"I said, I NEED TO RECHARGE!"
*plot armor holds under unrelenting Adas fire, Leng never strays five feet before losing shields again*
*cutscene shows Shepard's team fold effortlessly as the poser poses*
*Shepard mopes*

[Bob from Accounting]

Is that all you have to contribute to this discussion?

[DeinonSlayer]

Is that all you have to contribute to this discussion?

Is that an inaccurate characterization of the boss fight on Thessia?

Simply put, the "last stand" in Arrival was better executed, even if it's another fight you're destined to lose.

I'm trying to remember which CoD title had a story which actually branched out depending on who lived or died, contingent on which objectives you met. I haven't played that one, but I read about it. Failure had lasting consequences. Sounded pretty cool.

[ImaginaryMatter]

It still beats Kai Leng at Thessia.

"I need to recharge!"
*Adas anti-synthetic rifle*
"I said, I NEED TO RECHARGE!"
*plot armor holds under unrelenting Adas fire, Leng never strays five feet before losing shields again*
*cutscene shows Shepard's team fold effortlessly as the poser poses*
*Shepard mopes*

 

I think that is what makes it especially noticeable; it's the fact that Shepard can absolutely thrash Kai Leng during gameplay, but then in the cutscene he plants his sword into the ground (sigh...) and all stupidity breaks loose.

[OdanUrr]

I think many people, comprehending me, found the DLC good not because it was actually a good DLC but because it was better then what we were left with after the ending, because, i think, a parody of a great series like ME is better than a (stupidly forced) depressing version of it (<--the whole game has very much this itnent in mind, the off-screen six monts when Shepard sits on his/her ass doing nothing are a proof of it).

Simply put: in my opinion neither ME3 nor the Citadel DLC are as good as they should have been, as ME is, but if i have to choose between the 2 i choose the latter because it, at least, lets me part from the game in a somewhat good way.

 

Having sayed that, i am the only one that find it extremely sad? I mean the game is so...... that i went into the DLC expecting nothing more than a joke and i was actually happy when i found out that it was because, at least, it would not have had the same feelings the game/ending had

 

How sad is that a parody is placed up there with "The Shadow Broker"? How sad is that a parody DLC gives better closure that the actual ending?

 

Citadel delivered exactly what the fans asked for: basically, more interactions with your companions, such as your ME2 companions who were mostly sidelined in ME3. It was a "love letter" to the fans rampant with fan service, meta jokes, citizens discussing multiplayer tactics, you name it. It is a great piece of DLC with tons of content even if it does little in terms of adding to the story in the way LotSB does.

 

If you want a story-based DLC, here's a concept I wrote some time before Citadel was released.

[Bob from Accounting]

It was Call of Duty: Black Ops II. I've played it, and the choices weren't done very well. I don't know why you're bringing it up. Shilling another game in order to spite Mass Effect is an incredibly poor 'argument.'

 

Our discussion doesn't even have a thing to do with choices. Are you this desperate for concreteness in your arguments? This desperate to be right in some form or fashion? It's incredibly transparent.

[DeinonSlayer]

Never change, David.

[wolfhowwl]

Not sure if it's been brought up yet, but the "last stand" in Arrival comes to mind.

How could that work?

Leng decides to test his mettle against Shepard.

<insert well-designed boss fight>

Leng wins, beats the team to a pulp, and makes some mocking remarks. He gets what he came for and leaves.

Leng loses, comments that he underestimated Shepard, but is of course prepared for the eventuality. Calls in gunship support and drives off Shepard with a hail of missiles. He gets what he came for and leaves.

[Bob from Accounting]

You're just wasting my time here. And yours. Perhaps this type of 'argument' impresses your friends. I wouldn't know. It's overwhelmingly obvious you don't have any reasoning to offer and are thus utterly dependent on your meaningless platitudes and smiley faces. I'm interested in an actual discussion concerning defeat in video games. Not this nonsense.

[DeinonSlayer]

No, David. I'm simply basking in the irony of this coming from the guy who pulls a Smeagol every time he's directed to DA:O as an example of how an RPG can work, and work well, without blue happy points by which to measure your actions.



I'd advise you to read wolfhowwl's post above. The Kai Leng fight was poorly executed, and would have been easy to fix had they not been so fixated on "gun kata."

[Bob from Accounting]

Leng wins and beats the team to a pulp. He gets what he came for and leaves.

Leng loses. Calls in gunship support and drives off Shepard with a hail of missiles. He gets what he came for and leaves.

And suppose the writers want Shepard to be defeated by Leng. Not by a gunship. Not by missiles. By Leng.

 

If that's an incomprehensible defeat to you, feel free to replace Leng by any human-sized antagonist.

 

So what then? This solution obviously would not work.

[DeinonSlayer]

Make it a truly impossible fight, then. Pre-position snipers in the rafters where they nullify your cover. Put four or five more Phantoms out there with him. Have troopers flank you from the rear. Make it come across as an actual fight instead of sticking the one guy out there who ultimately spends the entire fight paralyzed by Shepard's fire until the cutscene puts a pop-gun in your hand.

People similarly object to Shepard standing idle for eighteen seconds while the VS gets their head smashed in, and standing around smoking a blunt while Thane gets shanked.

[ImaginaryMatter]

How could that work?

Leng decides to test his mettle against Shepard.

<insert well-designed boss fight>

Leng wins and beats the team to a pulp. He gets what he came for and leaves.

Leng loses. Calls in gunship support and drives off Shepard with a hail of missiles. He gets what he came for and leaves.

 

My idea for the scene would be for Kai Leng to rig the entire place with explosives before Shepard and friends arrived. The original plan would be for Leng to blow them immediately; however, because the guy is overly prideful (which is one of very few things we know about him) he wants to beat Shepard in a fight.

 

There would then be several rounds to the fight, if the player loses the first couple it is a game over. If Shepard can get past a few Kai Leng over powers the squad, gets the data, but is unable to kill Shepard. If the player perseveres all of the rounds Kai Leng is shamed into detonating the explosives and the player is rewarded by not getting that dumb email afterwards.

 

Since Kai Leng is supposed to be the anti-Shepard his strategy will change to Shepard's class's weakness. For example, against Vanguards, Kai Leng will stay on an unreachable platform, out of range for Charge and Nova (he'll use a real weapon to attack Shepard). Engineers he'll hack the drones to turn on the player and use power nullifiers. Etc.

 

It's not ideal, but I think it could have made for at least an enjoyable and unique fight.