266 réponses à ce sujet

[Darks1d3]

@lamjdr That would depend on who you ask, and which character was killed. The original script involved either sacrificing Liara or the VS. I would almost always save Liara, but there are a good number of people on these boards who would have loved the opportunity to remove the, and I quote, "the blue bimbo".

[Iamjdr]

From what others posted about the leak script there was to be a decision, similair to the Virmire one, that you could save the VS or Liara. I don't know the exact details. I for one would've like to of have that in the game.

Ah okay, yeah I thought I remembered hearing about something like that. I think that choice would have been interesting depending on how they did it.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

From what others posted about the leak script there was to be a decision, similair to the Virmire one, that you could save the VS or Liara. I don't know the exact details. I for one would've like to of have that in the game.

I really would not want to see another character die to Kai Leng. IMO he is the worst character in ME3. Maybe if it was someone else (like TIM, even) but Kai Leng is too terrible imo to toss yet another character at to be killed. If they'd kept that decision point, I seriously would've come out of that offended rather than intrigued. IMO everything about Kai Leng in ME3 is too contrived and stupid for me to accept him wrecking even more havoc than he already does in this game.

 

Please don't be offended by what I've said; none of this negativity is directed at you. I just really really don't think KL is a good feature of ME3.

[Iamjdr]

@lamjdr That would depend on who you ask, and which character was killed. The original script involved either sacrificing Liara or the VS. I would almost always save Liara, but there are a good number of people on these boards who would have loved the opportunity to remove the, and I quote, "the blue bimbo".

True but I think that's one if mass effects biggest problems, who to ask. Cause you ask one group of fans what they want and it steps all over what another group wants and vice versa.

[Darks1d3]

Agreed. Which is why you see all the Liara hate on BSN.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I would think I military person such as yourself would have more of a clue of combat actually works.

 

If a person hypothetically did the most they could possibly do to win a fight, they would pretty much be guaranteed to win against pretty much any reasonable sized opponent in existence. If the body was moved in the maximally beneficial way as the laws of biology and physics allow, even the weakest and smallest opponent could almost certainly beat their opponent.

 

That never happens. Never. In every single hand-to-hand fight in every fictional scenario in existence, there's always something the loser 'could' have done. The loser always 'could' have done something.

 

Does that mean every fight in all of existence is 'cutscene incompetence'?

 

I completely doubt you have any understanding of tactical leadership or movement in an hostile environment. 

 

Let alone, your claim hits a snag when Liara, who is armed with a weapon, stands still and dumbfounded as Leng moves forward and throws her on the ground. Ditto with Shepard, who is armed with a fully automatic weapon firing with single shot capability and stopping. Why is he stopping? Why is he not firing? Why is no one else firing? They have guns. Leng has a sword. Why is Leng not riddled with bullets? Why is the fact that he can absorb a few shots (when they could be taken down before with sustained gunfire) enough to deter Shepard from stopping and looking dumbfounded?

 

This is a very heavily forced win for Leng. It's a fight he didn't win on his own merits. You have him beat in gameplay, and then the game decides to change direction and make you lose when you had every advantage against him and then stopped fighting so that Leng could call in his gunship and make it seem like he beat you somehow. 

[fhs33721]

How did this thread go from discussing the Citadel DLC to complaining about cutscene defeats? Seriously it's kind of buffling. Anyway personally I'm not really bothered by the cutscene defeat. I personally even prefer it over BS like for example the Ser Cauthrien fight in DAO, where I reloaded whenever it became clear that I wouldn't beat her only to finally beat her at the 10th try. And then only on a later playthrough do I find out, that I was supposed to loose that fight and that I missed out on quite a bit of content by not loosing.

Seriously, that fight frustrated the hell out of me.

[Darks1d3]

You must be new to the BSN. Threads get derailed all the time. You could have a thread discussing the merits of the genophage and somehow it turns into a Geth vs Quarian debate. After a while, you get used to it.

[themikefest]

How did this thread go from discussing the Citadel DLC to complaining about cutscene defeats? Seriously it's kind of buffling. Anyway personally I'm not really bothered by the cutscene defeat. I personally even prefer it over BS like for example the Ser Cauthrien fight in DAO, where I reloaded whenever it became clear that I wouldn't beat her only to finally beat her at the 10th try. And then only on a later playthrough do I find out, that I was supposed to loose that fight and that I missed out on quite a bit of content by not loosing.

Seriously, that fight frustrated the hell out of me.

At times I would let myself be taken into custody. The other times when I fight her is I would go back through the door forcing her and the others to come to me making it easier to defeat them.

[DeinonSlayer]

At times I would let myself be taken into custody. The other times when I fight her is I would go back through the door forcing her and the others to come to me making it easier to defeat them.

 

My female city elf fought her - she had a good idea what would happen to her in shem custody from the last time she was a guest at the Arl of Denerim's estate (for the life of me I could not beat Cauthrien with that build). My hotheaded mage fireballed the whole lot of them and wanted to kill Queen Enora after she double-crossed him. My Dalish turned himself in.

 

I actually liked how many approaches there were to that situation.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I completely doubt you have any understanding of tactical leadership or movement in an hostile environment. 

 

Let alone, your claim hits a snag when Liara, who is armed with a weapon, stands still and dumbfounded as Leng moves forward and throws her on the ground. Ditto with Shepard, who is armed with a fully automatic weapon firing with single shot capability and stopping. Why is he stopping? Why is he not firing? Why is no one else firing? They have guns. Leng has a sword. Why is Leng not riddled with bullets? Why is the fact that he can absorb a few shots (when they could be taken down before with sustained gunfire) enough to deter Shepard from stopping and looking dumbfounded?

 

This is a very heavily forced win for Leng. It's a fight he didn't win on his own merits. You have him beat in gameplay, and then the game decides to change direction and make you lose when you had every advantage against him and then stopped fighting so that Leng could call in his gunship and make it seem like he beat you somehow. 

 

Not only that, if you slap a maxed out "Dark Channel" on Kai Leng it's even worse. You can sit there and watch his shields go down. He doesn't even go near Liara. Hit him a couple of times with a Harrier and he's screaming "I've got to recharge!" Then when he's recharged enough, he attacks, but you hit him with your Harrier again, and that DC is still going, and he goes into "Lock" again. Then have Liara hit him with a Warp, and you have Javik detonate it, and if you have the DC, which I did, you hit him with that again, and fire your Harrier, the fight is over, and he calls in the gunship to blow up the columns. It's a heavily forced win for Leng. The game AI cheats.

[Bob from Accounting]

Ridiculous.

 

You should spare me the gameplay hogwash and just come right out and say "My Shepard is a special snowflake who never ever loses because he's Shepard and he never loses." That's evidently what gameplay has you convinced of.

[Steelcan]

Ridiculous.

 

You should spare me the gameplay hogwash and just come right out and say "My Shepard is a special snowflake who never ever loses because he's Shepard and he never loses." That's evidently what gameplay has you convinced of.

 

>You haven't used that argument before

>David pls

[Steelcan]

My female city elf fought her - she had a good idea what would happen to her in shem custody from the last time she was a guest at the Arl of Denerim's estate (for the life of me I could not beat Cauthrien with that build). My hotheaded mage fireballed the whole lot of them and wanted to kill Queen Enora after she double-crossed him. My Dalish turned himself in.

 

I actually liked how many approaches there were to that situation.

 

9/10 gut them all

 

1/10 Sten and Oghren rescue me

[Bob from Accounting]

A simple question for those complaining about Leng:

 

Is it possible for you to comprehend Shepard and the squad legitimately losing to Leng and Leng alone? Is it something your imagination is capable of conceiving? Is it within the realm of possibility? Shepard losing to Leng. Not gunships. Not a squad of Phantoms. Not planted explosives. Leng, and only Leng. (Also no stun technology or knockout gas or any other 'instant win' technology. A physical fight alone.)

 

Or is the idea so incomprehensible and bamboozling that it's beyond your understanding? Beyond the realm of what you can imagine?

[wolfhowwl]

Ridiculous.
 
You should spare me the gameplay hogwash and just come right out and say "My Shepard is a special snowflake who never ever loses because he's Shepard and he never loses." That's evidently what gameplay has you convinced of.

Can you really blame her though? Bioware intended for Shepard to be a "special snowflake."

These games were designed to be wish fulfillment at their core, I think we could go as far as to call them a power fantasy.

[Steelcan]

A simple question for those complaining about Leng:

 

Is it possible for you to comprehend Shepard and the squad legitimately losing to Leng and Leng alone? Is it something your imagination is capable of conceiving? Is it within the realm of possibility? Shepard losing to Leng. Not gunships. Not a squad of Phantoms. Not planted explosives. Leng, and only Leng. (Also no stun technology or knockout gas or any other 'instant win' technology. A physical fight alone.)

 

Or is the idea so incomprehensible and bamboozling that it's beyond your understanding? Beyond the realm of what you can imagine?

 

HHHHHHHHHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

[DeinonSlayer]

A simple question for those complaining about Leng:

 

Is it possible for you to comprehend Shepard and the squad legitimately losing to Leng and Leng alone? Is it something your imagination is capable of conceiving? Is it within the realm of possibility? Shepard losing to Leng. Not gunships. Not a squad of Phantoms. Not planted explosives. Leng, and only Leng.

 

Or is the idea so incomprehensible and bamboozling that it's beyond your understanding? Beyond the realm of what you can imagine?

 

Yes, I can comprehend it. I've actually written how the sequence where he lands on the car could have been better handled:

 

How the scene went (my running thought commentary): "Oh, and there's the bridges passing by right there? This'll be good. Might even make up for the last cutscene. Pull up, Shepard, scrape his worthless ass off the car! Wait, WHAT?! Why are you shooting at him with a pop-gun? Where's my Paladin? Why are you dangling out of the side of the *frustrated groan*. Oh, wait, Leng stabbed the police light on the roof? How is that making the car crash? This is getting worse by the second, and not in a good way. Yes, yes, give me control again."

How the scene should have gone: Leng lands on the car, squadmate in the passenger seat pulls an "Oh shi-", but at the precise moment Leng stands up, Shepard veers up and a loud crunch is heard as Leng smacks into the side of a passing bridge. Squadmates stare at Shepard for an awkwardly silent moment before (s)he shrugs and says, "What?" before something heavy jostles the car. It's Leng. He's still on the car, mostly under it, clinging to the sword buried up to its hilt in the engine block at the rear of the car. The second squadmate, sitting in the back seat, leans out of their seat and pumps a few rounds into Leng, who, as his shields absorb the rounds, lets go of the hilt and falls down to the next car - his ride. Shepard's car crashes, things move forward as they did originally, only instead of Shepard's dumbassery being the force driving the scene, Leng actually does something impressive for once - and having abandoned his sword in the engine block, he uses a gun for the rest of the level.

Is it incomprehensible to you that the Thessia fight, as depicted in-game, is viewed as laughably bad by just about everyone here?

 

If you have a revised scenario, David, let's hear it: how to make Thessia not suck.

[Bob from Accounting]

I'm the one asking for a revised scenario, not you. It's relatively easy to imagine Leng stopping Shepard's car, particularly when he has goons and an extra car or two for backup.

 

I want a scenario where Leng beats all three squadmembers on his own two feet. Nothing but the ground and the environment around him. No tricks, and no backup. If you can comprehend that, write that for me.

[DeinonSlayer]

I'm the one asking for a revised scenario, not you. It's relatively easy to imagine Leng stopping Shepard's car, particularly when he has goons and an extra car or two for backup.

 

I want a scenario where Leng beats all three squadmembers on his own two feet. Nothing but the ground and the environment around him. No tricks, and no backup. If you can comprehend that, write that for me.

David, all I've ever seen you do is sit back and scoff contemptuously at other people's ideas, reinterpretations, and rewrites while defending even the most widely ridiculed scenes in the trilogy under the auspices of narrative theories you can't seem to comprehend straying from. I've yet to see you contribute any scenarios of your own. So, no - it's your turn. Let's see what you've got. You believe so much that such a scene could have worked? Don't demand it from someone else. Let's hear it from you.

 

I, personally, think a preprepared environment would still count as a victory for him because it would have been his ingenuity leading to victory. So I say an ambush, explosives et al remain valid. If you want to write a scene without them, describing every ballerina flip and one-liner, knock yourself out.

[Iamjdr]

I honestly think I'm still missing how everyone finds the fight on thessia so bad... I mean everyone keeps say its because you lose to Kia leng but he CHEATS to win. I mean thats the point of that entire scene isn't it? to feel cheated and that leng got out by the skin of his teeth. Kia leng realizes he can't win so he gets away from everyone, bubbles and calls in the gunship to do his dirty work. If he was so sure he could win he would have stayed to finish the squad off after but he is gone before shep climbs out of the hole, which was pretty quick. Shep even says as much in the cerby HQ mission "I only seem slow cause I'm not running" " you ran on the citadel, you ran on thessia"

[Bob from Accounting]

It's not my opinion that matters right now. It's not me, Bob from Accounting, who is upset with the scene in question. It's you. And I'm pretty well convinced that whatever people are upset by, it has little to actually do with the fight and everything to do with players convinced their special Shepard should never ever be defeated the hands of a mere mortal human. Especially by that big Cerberus meanie. Isn't that right?

[DeinonSlayer]

It's not my opinion that matters right now. It's not me, Bob from Accounting, who is upset with the scene in question. It's you. And I'm pretty well convinced that whatever people are upset by, it has little to actually do with the fight and everything to do with players convinced their special Shepard should never ever be defeated the hands of a mere mortal human. Especially by that big Cerberus meanie. Isn't that right?

Uh, no. I've described how Thessia could have been recast earlier in this thread (an ambush involving snipers positioned where your cover is negated and troopers flanking you from behind while Leng and the gunship attack from the front - the kind of crossfire the game typically avoids). I've described how the car chase scene could have been handled so Leng's scripted competence, not Shepard's scripted incompetence, would have been the driving force of the scene - that is what people object to; not defeat in itself, but stupidity (I'm going to run into an elevator full of sword-wielding enemies! What are these gree-naids you speak of?).

 

That's what it really comes down to. Winning on merit, rather than spontaneously equipping the protagonists with the weakest weapons in the game and giving them Rainier Wolfcastle's reaction time.

 

 

I don't object to the VS getting their ass kicked on Mars. I object to Shepard standing there for eighteen seconds watching without intervening in any way.

 

You don't hear objections to the Warden's defeat at the end of Ostagar in DA:O because it didn't happen as a result of blatant cutscene incompetence.

[Han Shot First]

I thought Bioware had the right idea in setting up Shepard for a defeat on Thessia, it just wasn't executed as well as it could have been. Kai Leng was poorly written in general and never comes across as either an intimidating or a compelling antagonist, and the gameplay portion of the Thessia boss fight was not well designed. 

[Bob from Accounting]

What nonsense.

 

Let's consider for a moment the fight at the conclusion of the Citadel DLC. The one where the player can utterly crush the antagonist in gameplay before a cutscene plays.

 

If I remember correctly, the clone not only disarms Shepard, but gains the upper hand rather quickly. I believe the clone is only thrown off by the movement of the Normandy. Not only that, it's a fairly long time, combat-wise, before the squadmates show up. At least a good five seconds, perhaps even ten or more.

 

Wait a minute. Where are the shrieks of 'cutscene incompetence'?

 

The shrieks for Shepard to pull out another weapon after being disarmed?

 

Where are the cries that Shepard should have pulled out his omniblade and cut the clone's throat while on top of him instead of throwing punches?

 

Where are the demands that Shepard use his biotics to throw him off?

 

Where are the accusations of the squadmates 'doing nothing'?

 

The cries of Shepard using his 'weakest weapon' (an utterly silly complaint for entirely different reasons.)?

 

Hmm. Let's think. Now what's the big difference between that cutscene and the one on Thessia?