32 réponses à ce sujet

[StephenFulford]

I vaguely remember in an interview with one of the writers of ME3 describing Tali as a flawed character because she is essentially racist (if anyone can find the interview, I'd love validation). This is a common attitude toward Tali and the quarians in general, but I don't believe it is as simple as that.

 

The major difference I see between Tali's contempt of the geth and general contempt of another race is that the geth that exist are the same geth that commited the slaughter of her people. She isn't blaming a people for something their ancestors did, but blaming a single consensus of what it did to her people.

 

It seems more analogous to propose that the geth are like a war criminal who slaughtered billions, and Tali is a child of the victims while the perpetrator lives. Accounting for the geth's change in understanding is more akin to this hypothetical war criminal changing heart and expecting Tali to understand.

 

Whether or not the geth understood their actions in the Morning War, or whether their repentance is genuine, Tali's contempt isn't analogous to racism. There is no generalization being made, and no assigning of blame where there shouldn't be one. The geth of contemporary existence were the same geth, and all were guilty because of their lack of individualism.

 

The judgement of whether the quarians ought to forgive them, or whether they acted foolishly when trying to eliminate the geth initially, or whether the geth's ignorance grants them moral immunity, has nothing to do with my proposition. I'm sure that can be discussed as well, and is certainly a heated debate in the forums, but the question under scrutiny is if Tali can rightly be called racist in her early evaluation of the geth before coming to terms with Legion.

 

Let's try to keep this civil and provide arguments in an appropriate interaction with one another.

[The Most Sneaky Of Foxes]

I don't see anyone complaining about Wrex being racist, who on multiple occasions talks about killing turians and salarians for their creation of the genophage.

If you wanted to use the argument that the reason Tali shouldn't dislike the geth is because her people created them and brought on the war themselves, it's the same deal with Wrex or Grunt. The krogan were expanding too quickly and became destructive and "brought on" the genophage in much the same way the quarians did the Morning War; they evolved without proper knowledge of the consequences, and paid a heavy price because of that.

And what's wrong with a flawed character, anyway? "Perfect" characters are flat and unrealistic. Even if we assume she's racist, the game shows she has the self-awareness and moral intelligence to overcome said racism and be friends with Legion, and even accept the idea that the geth will live with them on Rannoch. Arguing the point that she is racist only demonstrates that her character is more dynamic and strong because of the personal growth she displays in the third game.

[ElectronicPostingInterface]

"And what's wrong with a flawed character, anyway? "Perfect" characters are flat and unrealistic. Even if we assume she's racist, the game shows she has the self-awareness and moral intelligence to overcome said racism and be friends with Legion, and even accept the idea that the geth will live with them on Rannoch. Arguing the point that she is racist only demonstrates that her character is more dynamic and strong because of the personal growth she displays in the third game."

 

I was going to post something but this was smart so I'm not going to bother >_>

[StephenFulford]

Yes, but there's also a fundamental difference I'm trying to point out. Wrex and Grunt can be called racist because they blame salarians and turians whether or not the individual had anything to do with the genophage, and whether or not they even endorse the genophage. They generalize an entire people for a past event that the current generation is fundamentally detached from.

 

I'm not arguing that she isn't flawed, that there is anything wrong with being flawed, or anything along those lines. I am simply pointing out that the term racism doesn't apply to the quarian contempt of the geth.

[The Most Sneaky Of Foxes]

No no, I wasn't saying that you specifically are or are not calling her racist, I was just arguing the point that if other people claim that. I actually sort of enjoy the idea that Tali is "racist" just because of the points I listed above. It makes her more interesting and "human", for lack of a better word. It's far more admirable to carry an undesirable opinion and change that opinion to a more positive one than to never have any undesirable views in the first place.

 

But I see what you're saying. Calling your family's murderer a murderer isn't generalisation, but calling all men murderers is - her view of the geth isn't racist in the sense that the people she hates are the same people that took her home. It isn't generalisation because every geth participated in the act, whether they were justified in doing so or not.

[Hyraz]

I view it as Tali shaping a natural prejudice in the course of her childhood, followed by (in the games) being exposed to a broader perspective than before. Just how aknowledged she is on the subject by the events of the first Mass Effect I can't say, then again wasn't it 300 years since the Morning War by then?

 

The absolute truth of what occured in the war could be difficult to come by, and it isn't unlikely most descendant quarians would cling to blind hatred for the race who nearly wiped them out. Regardless who was in the right.

 

With that in mind, judging Tali and branding her as a racist seems farfetched, in my opinion. There are too many variables to consider when we don't know exactly what information she has on the geth, etcetera. She may exercise complete dislike for the geth, which can be racism, but it doesn't mean it's blind racism.

 

I could be wrong about how informative she is by ME1, though. It has been a while since I played the games.

[StephenFulford]

@Sneaky

That's exactly what I'm saying.

 

Unrelated to the argument, I too find her growth to be admirable though her initial beliefs I believe are justified from what she knows and she could have held onto those beliefs and been self-justified. Her ability to accept the geth's actions as a mistake born of ignorance, and to forgive the same entity/entities that slaughtered her people is astounding. Someone could have considered the evidence provided in ME3 that demonstated their primitive reaction and just as easily could have dismissed them as irrelevant arguments for justification. The reality that Tali considered the evidence and didn't let any previous bias influence her understanding of objective morality regardless of race shows that she is the so far in the opposite direction to racism.

[The Most Sneaky Of Foxes]

Is there actually a debate about this in the forums right now, Stephen? Or were you talking about past debates?

 

God knows there's been enough of those >_>

[Hyraz]

Is there actually a debate about this in the forums right now, Stephen? Or were you talking about past debates?

 

God knows there's been enough of those >_>

 

I can assure you the debate of who was the "villain" of the Morning War is one old wagon. One with three of its' wheels missing, most of its wood charred and splinters all over.

 

Although I wouldn't be surprised if they've managed to tangle themselves in yet another similar topic.

[StephenFulford]

No, though I think there's one about picking the geth over quarians (but I don't think that one ever stopped). It's just an argument that I didn't think was properly addressed. As I've mentioned in other places, I study mostly the philosophy of history and science, so this type of debate is very appealing to me. I'm arguing over a definition of racism, and I wanted to see what this group thought of the argument. That's also why I tried to keep it a bit on topic.

 

I don't really care who the "villain" of the Morning War is, because it's clearly more complicated than that. But I do believe it can be asserted that the quarian's hatred of the geth should not be called racism for the reasons I mentioned above.

[The Most Sneaky Of Foxes]

Ah, okay. That particular topic is ancient, but I too wouldn't be surprised if it resurfaced.

 

And this spin on the topic is interesting. Philosophical debates are always fun, simply due to the fact that there isn't ever a truly correct answer in philosophy. Especially when it comes to topics such as the Morning War.

[Hyraz]

 

I don't really care who the "villain" of the Morning War is, because it's clearly more complicated than that. But I do believe it can be asserted that the quarian's hatred of the geth should not be called racism for the reasons I mentioned above.

 

Oh, I'm aware. I was referencing the older debates that constantly scorched the story forums of BSN.

 

On the topic, I wouldn't call Tali a "racist" because that word can be interpreted wrongly, and without details. Baseline definition of that word is either believing you are superior to another race, or holding contempt for another race.

 

Tali clearly holds dislike for the geth. However, it's not blind dislike. Her reason is justified, a natural attribute bestowed upon her due to her place in time.

 

I guess you could call it righteous racism.

[StephenFulford]

It's even harder to presume though, because her reason for hating them isn't on any sort of racial basis, but it can be argued that the geth are a single entity that commited an act.

 

@Sneaky

Philosophy can't prove, only disprove. So the best way to argue isn't by proving a proposition, though making a proposition that can stand scrutiny, instead it's about disproving the counter argument. In this case, I do believe it can be determined that Tali isn't racist. Is my argument sound? I think it could use some fine-tuning.

[TheWerdna]

"And what's wrong with a flawed character, anyway? "Perfect" characters are flat and unrealistic. Even if we assume she's racist, the game shows she has the self-awareness and moral intelligence to overcome said racism and be friends with Legion, and even accept the idea that the geth will live with them on Rannoch. Arguing the point that she is racist only demonstrates that her character is more dynamic and strong because of the personal growth she displays in the third game."

 

I was going to post something but this was smart so I'm not going to bother >_>

I second that, Sneak summed up everything I had been going to say far better than I could.

[Tom80]

I will stay away from such topics, because I likely get to emotional and racist myself.

[StephenFulford]

Debate isn't for everyone, Tom. Don't worry about it. When people can't keep things objective it ruins the fun of the debate. No one here wants others to be frustrated or to be frustrated themselves.

[Tom80]

Debate isn't for everyone, Tom. Don't worry about it. When people can't keep things objective it ruins the fun of the debate. No one here wants others to be frustrated or to be frustrated themselves.

[Derpy]

Why argue about who is racist? Everyone from time to time is racist to SOME degree. Its just some are more so than others.

[Hyraz]

There's one fact that I'm not sure of and that is if Tali, at the time of ME1, was aware of the unified geth mind that made them akin to "one person" instead of individuals.

 

Regardless if Tali was aware or not, I don't think it's wrong to call her a racist. However, that is only if details are given so that it isn't misinterpretted. Labelling someone a racist without giving context is like writing sarcasm on the internet. Unless made prominent, the real point probably won't carry through.

[The Most Sneaky Of Foxes]

Why argue about who is racist? Everyone from time to time is racist to SOME degree. Its just some are more so than others.

It's not so much about who is or isn't racist, but arguing against the idea that Tali is so racist that it cripples her character to the point of rendering her incomplete. ie people disregarding her as a legitimate squadmate because of her views of the geth, which then piggybacks onto the Morning War debate, usually with the implication that the quarians are at fault because they're racist (which doesn't really make sense in itself, but that's another topic).

 

There's also the implication that Tali's racism is a stagnant trait that won't ever change or go away. It's a stance I've seen people take many times and use it as a reason for not liking Tali. Which is fine, of course; there's no requirement for people to like every character. It's just a weak viewpoint because it's based on the idea that the sum totality of Tali's character is her racism, and that that racism won't ever go away.

 

Hell, if you wanted to point fingers at racist characters, I'd begin with Ashley. Again, another topic, but I digress.

 

At least, that's what I think Stephen is basing this topic off of >_> (besides the philosophical discussion about what one can define as racism or not, of course.)

[StephenFulford]

It's important to remember that these sorts of arguments shouldn't be assaults on people's character, even fictional ones, even if they so often degrade to that. She is who she is, and to judge her or her entire people is a rather self-righteous thing to do. Arguments like this should expand one's understanding if they're willing to hear different arguments. Thinking over the subject, which I admittedly wouldn't have done if someone hadn't made the claim in the first place, I gained much more appreciation for Tali's character.

 

It's often much better to meet people where they're at as opposed to harping on about things that don't sit well with you. Sneaky's very right in saying that it isn't about who is or isn't racist. I sought to provide a different outlook so we could better understand the character, in an area of contention among those that don't like the character. To sit back and judge a character is silly, even if they have every right to dislike the character, which I certainly respect. But to provide insight into a a character, whether or not they influence people into liking her, is a good reason for debate. Plus, it never hurts to think critically about things.

[Tankobite]

I don't particularly see her a racist--I mean the geth are of one consciousness and killed off most of her people.  That's like asking a child of a Jewish holocaust survivor to be friends with death camp commandants who have repented.  For her part, she eventually overcomes her 'racism' with Legion.

 

Edit; it is overly simplified, obviously.  And yes.  Godwin.

[Litefoot]

"How dare Tali dislike the synthetics who exterminated 99+% of her species, drove them into a life of scavenging and living aboard cramped, broken down ships, so they can be hated and distrusted by most of the galaxy, and forcing her to wear effectively a mobile iron lung that prevents her from even feeling the outside world, and could die from a minor infection! What a monster!"

 

[Hyraz]

^ My sarcasm detector is off the charts. Infact it just evaporated into this glowy, healthy powder. Actually, it is probably not that healthy.

 

On topic though... As I've already said my piece, I'll just add another layer which is that Tali's moral standpoint through most of the series strongly contradicts the notion of her being a (bad-hearted) racist.

 

Kind of difficult to wrap up the topic without inevitably going in circles. Being that the circumstance with the quarians and geth is so extreme, it would be common sense to be a racist. You can't help but at the very least expect the quarians to show natural hatred for someone who nearly extinguished their race. Then there's the variables on top of that again, like... who were the true instigators to the Morning War, etc.

 

I stand by the point that quarians can be called racists with the sense that it isn't wrong of them to be. Although if there is any desire to prove otherwise I'm all ears.

 

Not that I'm trying to state the absolute answer to the question at hand. I'm merely stating my personal views/opinions.

[Tankobite]

I just get the feeling that in almost every other story, our sympathies would automatically be directed towards the Quarians.  I mean, look at Battlestar Galactica, Termenator, I have no mouth and I must scream.  All are stories where AI becomes sentient and tries to wipe out its creator, but our sympathies are always with organics.

 

Maybe--and this is just me venting my spleen; all the transhumanism crap that spread into ME 3 is to blame a bit for it.