Radical thought here
maybe pro-Cerberus players wanted Cerberus to not be indoctrinated
I'm not even necessarily pro-Cerberus and I didn't want them to be Indoctrinated. It added a lot to the Paragon bias to have the utilitarian guys turn out to be obviously wrong because lol-indoctrination.
oh sure, I bet Dr. K, Rana Thonoptis, TIM had the same philosophy. (along with everybody else who has ever worked with Reaper Tech throughout the Trilogy)
'oh, we just need to be super careful and there's no way we'll get indoctrinated. Only careless idiots get indoctrinated....."
Indeed. Only careless idiots get indoctrinated.
Look at Dr. Bryson (both of them). Neither of them were indoctrinated by the big piece of Sovereign in their living room. Or the alliance technicians integrating the parts of the Reaper from Cronos Station into the Crucible. They were taking necessary precautions, and none are implied to be indoctrinated. Are you saying that we should say no to Reaper tech period?
Hell look at Sanctuary. It was a bloody miracle what Cerberus was able to accomplish there.
Massively, drop the term "careful". You have no evidence to support your claim. Come up with something else.
They got indoctrinated because they weren't "careful", isn't cutting it.
They got indoctrinated because of plot induced stupidity, that better?
oh sure, I bet Dr. K, Rana Thonoptis, TIM had the same philosophy. (along with everybody else who has ever worked with Reaper Tech throughout the Trilogy)
"Oh, we just need to be super careful and there's no way we'll get indoctrinated. Only careless idiots get indoctrinated....."
Apparently you can shield the technology. That Bryson guy in Leviathan did it and he and his work staff seemed to have avoided Reaper Indoctrination. Also, the Alliance work crew who integrated the human Reaper heart/brain also took precautions and they seemed fine as well; although I guess there really wasn't enough time for them to get Indoctrinated.
Well, she and TIM obviously weren't careful with it.
I don't know. Look at Saren, he made huge efforts not to get indoctrinated and look how that ended. My policy with Reaper tech is "Destroy everything you can and stay away from the rest".
They really should have explored the derelict Reaper remotely, via mechs.Well, she and TIM obviously weren't careful with it.
It's why I destroy the Collector Base. I don't destroy it out of some misplaced or foolish notion of idealism or morality. I destroy it because it's too much of a white elephant to get the kind of use out of it that I require. It's like the one ring of Sauron. It's too much for us to handle without very high risk of indoctrination.
you use Cerberus to prove your point.....and yet, they're all indoctrinated.Indeed. Only careless idiots get indoctrinated.
Look at Dr. Bryson (both of them). Neither of them were indoctrinated by the big piece of Sovereign in their living room. Or the alliance technicians integrating the parts of the Reaper from Cronos Station into the Crucible. They were taking necessary precautions, and none are implied to be indoctrinated. Are you saying that we should say no to Reaper tech period?
Hell look at Sanctuary. It was a bloody miracle what Cerberus was able to accomplish there.
In ME3 Cerberus is experimenting on and killing people. To say that the ability to support them is missing is laughable and sociopathic. There is zero reason for that to be in ME3.
I support that if we're getting a good return on it.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with having Cerberus as enemies in ME3. They're indoctrinated. I have no choice but to fight them, even if I don't view them as inherently evil (indeed I hold them in a much higher light than anyone in the alliance or Council).
Supporting them is utilitarianism to a high degree. Utilitarianism can be broadly named described as a philosophy balanced around the ideal of 'the end justifies the means'.
ME3 goes out it's way to tell you how 'wrong' that ideal is.
ME3 is about defeating the Reapers. You can be a pro-human isolationist/dominationist, or wax philosophically about corrupt power structures in some other story.And there's nothing that replaces Cerberus. So the belief that humanity needs to be on its own, the Council system is hopelessly corrupt and should be dismantled, as well as a techno-progressive outlook is lumped in with Holocaust imagery. Yeah, real fair.
Their "synopses" selectively ignored previously-established facts with rather wide-sweeping ramifications...Of course. They got brief synopses of the story, and that is a reasonable expectation.
Massively, drop the term "careful". You have no evidence to support your claim. Come up with something else.
They got indoctrinated because they weren't "careful", isn't cutting it.
I just gave you my evidence. What, does that not exist in la-la land? Careful is the word for it. And they weren't careful with it. It's exactly why didn't work.
seemed like the focus of Brysons research was Leviathan. The piece of Sovereign just looked like a big paper weight/decoration. Didn't seem like he was intensively doing research on it like Cerberus. In fact, his daughter even makes it seem as if he thought of it as souvenir.Apparently you can shield the technology. That Bryson guy in Leviathan did it and he and his work staff seemed to have avoided Reaper Indoctrination. Also, the Alliance work crew who integrated the human Reaper heart/brain also took precautions and they seemed fine as well; although I guess there really wasn't enough time for them to get Indoctrinated.
ME3 is about defeating the Reapers. You can be a pro-human isolationist/dominationist, or wax philosophically about corrupt power structures in some other story.
A technoprogressive outlook is not lumped in with holocaust imagery - crazy is lumped in with holocaust imagery. There is plenty technoprogressive that is looked at as fine, starting with the main character.
My only real beef with the Reapers is that they're trying to wipe out my civilization. I don't hate them as they're presented. I just find their existence and given motivation fundamentally incompatible ideology with my own views.
How is the fact that we have to defeat Reapers in any way at all mutually exclusive to being able to define our beliefs in how we can beat them.
Strawmanning an argument and putting making a broad generalization fallacy over what constitutes 'crazy' isn't a support.
Pretty sure you only see that way because you have an obvious interest in seeing one side of the argument elevated over another.Their "synopses" selectively ignored previously-established facts with rather wide-sweeping ramifications...
seemed like the focus of Brysons research was Leviathan. The piece of Sovereign just looked like a big paper weight/decoration. Didn't seem like he was intensively doing research on it like Cerberus. In fact, his daughter even makes it seem as if he thought of it as souvenir.
And as you said, the Crucible technicians clearly weren't around it long enough to get indoctrinated.
Yet they had had that piece for 2 or more odd years, hanging in the living room. Now you're taking a different approach to your argument. You're saying that because they didn't 'seem' to 'study' it, that it must not have been able to indoctrinate. You're dismissing its capability as nothing more than a paper weight or trophy.
And what basis do you have for stating that the Crucible techs 'clearly' weren't around it long enough to be indoctrinated? Now you're trying to make up excuses for your argument.
Pretty sure you only see that way because you have an obvious interest in seeing one side of the argument elevated over another.
No. But I do have an interest in seeing both sides of an argument presented equally and fairly.
Otherwise, your statement is a black pot/kettle fallacy.
no, you're the one in the land of La La. Bryson wasnt doing hands on research with the piece of Sovereign on a daily basis. It sat there in protective shielding like a damn trophy. His research focuse was solely on Leviathan. You cite the Crucible Technicians, and yet they haven't even been around the Reaper Heart/Brain long enough to be indoctrinated.I just gave you my evidence. What, does that not exist in la-la land? Careful is the word for it. And they weren't careful with it. It's exactly why didn't work.
idc how long it was in Dr. Brysons office. It sat in protective shielding the entire time. I'm not making excuses, I'm using in-game information to support my claim while all you're doing is saying "they weren't careful".Yet they had had that piece for 2 or more odd years, hanging in the living room. Now you're taking a different approach to your argument. You're saying that because they didn't 'seem' to 'study' it, that it must not have been able to indoctrinate. You're dismissing its capability as nothing more than a paper weight or trophy.
And what basis do you have for stating that the Crucible techs 'clearly' weren't around it long enough to be indoctrinated? Now you're trying to make up excuses for your argument.
Pretty sure you only see that way because you have an obvious interest in seeing one side of the argument elevated over another.
Uh, no. When I see Mordin making a strong argument for the genophage in ME2, then come ME3 no mention is made of the points he brought up and the only character still advocating for it is a shrill racist, it's pretty obvious what's going on. And this is coming from someone who is anti-genophage. When I see Gerrel pose a stronger argument for reclaiming Rannoch in ME2, then Xen poses a weak one in ME3, it's the same story.
The dalatrass should have brought up some of these points. Instead of saying the Krogan were "no longer useful," she should have truthfully said that the Krogan tried to finish what the Rachni started. A cure undermines Wrex's societal reforms - we should have been able to question him on whether it was the right thing to do, even if we couldn't change his mind. If his back is against the wall, let's talk to him and hear him explain why. Establish the perspective. Same with Gerrel, Raan, and Legion - all we can get from Raan is fleet composition. Let's hear from her about the near-extermination of her people, the centuries of isolationism, the heretics, and the enormous shadow it casts on any kind of peace process. Let's talk to Legion and learn why they did those things, and whether they've learned from past mistakes. Let's call up Gerrel and see what alternatives (if any) they had to war, challenge him for getting them in this situation and hear his reasoning for it to judge for ourselves instead of simply punching him like an ignorant thug.
Present the arguments in their entirety. Don't limit the synopses to those facts and arguments which only support one side.
no, you're the one in the land of La La. Bryson wasnt doing hands on research with the piece of Sovereign on a daily basis. It sat there in protective shielding like a damn trophy. His research focuse was solely on Leviathan. You cite the Crucible Technicians, and yet they haven't even been around the Reaper Heart/Brain long enough to be indoctrinated.
It's been made quite clear over the course of the series, regardless of who you are and how careful you are, you will become indoctrinated if your experimenting with Reaper Tech for a long enough time.
Please show me in the game where it says "we were careful while researching Reaper Tech, that's why we're not indoctrinated".
You can't.
You're saying that because Dr. Bryson wasn't actively studying the Reaper remains, that he must not have had to worry about its effects at all, even if it was clearly sitting in the middle of his lab, right next to everything else he was working on. You're also precluding the possibility that, in the entire 2+ years that he's owned the thing, he never once bothered to study it or look into it. Or look into how it could possibly effect his research into indoctrination and look for similarities between it and the Leviathan orb.
And as I stated, you're not defining how long the technicians on the Crucible were working with the Reaper tech salvaged from Cronos Station. It seems that it would have to had some amount of time passing with its capture and integration, given the nature of the description from the war assets rating.
Your statement was never made in the game, period. Not once is it ever stated that working with Reaper tech will always result in indoctrination, no matter the amount of precaution taken. It was never stated that it is an absolute certainty that such a fate will always occur. I'm not saying that it's not dangerous, but I am saying that indoctrination isn't a certainty.
Dismissing evidence and asking for one more step of evidence beyond what was provided is not a rational form of debate. That's what you're doing.
Once again, my evidence:
Here is the description from the 'Reaper Brain' War Asset:
The Illusive Man salvaged the most valuable part of the human proto-Reaper under construction by the Collectors: its central processor. This "brain" has been reactivated for use as a computational device, crunching unheard amounts of data in nanoseconds. The Crucible's engineers are dissecting the processor, working in strictly supervised, drone-assisted shifts. While direct contact with Reapers is dangerous, the engineers feel the risk is worth the potential discovery of vulnerabilities in Reaper construction.
And the piece of the artifact is stated by Dr. Ann Bryson to have been given the proper amount of shielding to prevent corruption, and regular psychiatric evaluations were taking place as stated by Dr. Bryson. Proper precautions were taken, and no indoctrination was reported. EDI in fact implies that there is indeed such a thing as appropriate steps to prevent indoctrination.
At 3:43
So unless you make a further dismissal of evidence and demand for proof (which reflects more on your argument than mine), your claim is false (unless you can of course define how my argument isn't true). You can indeed be careful enough when studying Reaper tech to prevent indoctrination entirely.
idc how long it was in Dr. Brysons office. It sat in protective shielding the entire time. I'm not making excuses, I'm using in-game information to support my claim while all you're doing is saying "they weren't careful".
The game gives no indication that Bryson ever did extensive research on it. The game gives no indication other than 'oh he was so excited when he found this hunk of junk'. And then it proceeds to talk about his research (which is on Leviathan). Please, feel free to prove me wrong and provide me with the in-game info that states Dr. Bryson was doing constant hands-on research with the Sovereign fragment. I'll wait.....
As for the Crucible Technicians....what basis do I have? They got the Reaper Heart/Brain after Cronos, and then we're on our way to Earth in order to dock the Crucible. That is the last piece added to the superweapon. So, if you're just getting it before the last mission in the game, they obviously didn't have it long. They weren't sitting there with it for months (like Cerberus and Kenseth)
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And, as shown in my statement above, you are indeed dismissing said evidence and saying that because the game doesn't explicitly state something, then it must not be true. Of course, I'm not going to make a claim on this since it isn't elaborated upon, but the claim that since there was no studying of the Reaper artifact taking place during the events of the Leviathan dlc that it was absolutely impossible to say that Reaper indoctrination is not preventable is stretching for evidence. Let's do it this way. Name where it's stated that working with Reaper technology is absolutely guaranteed to result in indoctrination (with or without preventative measures in place).
Simply put, dismissing the 'they weren't careful enough' argument as an appeal to ridicule (given that TIM injected the damn Reaper technology into himself and left it hanging right next to his office with no protective shielding whatsoever, and that Dr. Kenson and her crew simply left a big piece of Reaper technology right where they found it, in the middle of their base with no protective measures either, or how the Cerberus team in ME2 lost on Legion's recruitment mission had no protection considering their lab was inside a Reaper) is not an indicator that no amount of caution is possible when dealing with Reaper tech. As mentioned, the evidence here shows that no caution whatsoever was taken at all. Same with Saren. He made Sovereign, an active Reaper, his bloody flagship. And Dr. Thanoptis. Who worked directly with Reaper technology for the guy, and who actively exposed people to Reaper indoctrination.
You sort of remind me of Major Standish from the "I Love Bees" viral marketing campaign for Halo 2.Yes, it is indeed missing. I do indeed support the behavior and goals of TIM if it gets me the results I want.
As I can say, in ME3, there is a very large anti-utilitarian bias in this regard. I fully support TIM's goals and methods, just not his motivations in ME3, which are no longer his own.
As well, you treat Cerberus as though you always hated them in ME3, while ignoring the part where you can essentially choose to support them in ME2. I knew what they were. The real them. And I was fine with it. I wish more people were like them. We'd progress a hell of a lot faster.
I don't know about you, but I don't give consideration to 'morality and ethics' in my decisions. To me, the morality of an action is proportional directly to its conclusion and that conclusion is proportional to how it achieves or advances my goal. ME1 and ME2 let me play a Shepard like this. ME3 does not.
You sort of remind me of Major Standish from the "I Love Bees" viral marketing campaign for Halo 2.
Herzog: "Principles are results; they're an end in themselves."
Standish: "No. Results are results."
Exactly.
There are people who adhere to their principles no matter what.
And there are people who adhere to their goals no matter what.
I am the latter. My goals are my principles. And vice versa.
you use Cerberus to prove your point.....and yet, they're all indoctrinated.
Not really. My point was looking at the benefits of what happened when you studied Reaper tech. They came across across a result that could give us a strong tactical advantage against Reaper ground forces.
And was Henry Lawson indoctrinated? He was the man behind it all at Sanctuary. Was he out for glory and looking out for himself above everything else? Yes. Does that mean he was a Reaper drone? No. And it seems he was quite involved in much of the studying of the tech itself. Cerberus was funding the operation, but that doesn't mean they ran it necessarily.
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