Aller au contenu

Photo

Finished ME 3 ( better late than never) Why do I feel like I was kicked in the quads?


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
1483 réponses à ce sujet

#351
wolfhowwl

wolfhowwl
  • Members
  • 3 727 messages

Mass Effect has always restricted roleplaying, ignored previous events, and railroaded the player.

 

Yeah, in ME3 this finally touched your precious Quarians/Cerberus/whatever and things didn't go as you wanted. Sucks, huh, but you shouldn't have been surprised.

 

Some of us had to get used to that earlier than others. These are the writers who thought players who rolled a Sole Survivor in ME1 should let it slide that Cerberus tried to kill them and did kill their friends. Or that players who completed Hades' Dogs should just forget that. If they didn't give a damn about things that happened to the PLAYER CHARACTER did you really think that they'd care what you think about dumb robots and their war with the dumb aliens who made them?

 

People have always been screwed by the writing, this time it just happened to be your turn.



#352
sH0tgUn jUliA

sH0tgUn jUliA
  • Members
  • 16 812 messages

Massively, twist it however you like....you're the one with the burden of proof. And you haven't provided it...

 

EDI is built out of Reaper tech. Her software is from the VI on Luna, but her hardware is made from parts of Sovereign. Dr. Chakwas, due to constant proximity should have been indoctrinated.

 

If you ask me the entire way indoctrination was handled in the series was bull****. Read the codex. A child could counter it with modest safety measures. The entire Citadel was Reaper Tech. Everyone on the Citadel should have been indoctrinated due to proximity. But if you study it, it becomes "evil" because the mystical Starbrat somehow knows someone is learning something from the forbidden fruit from his tree of knowledge? 

 

Reaper indoctrination is done as a matter of convenience and contrivance by the writers. It is a plot device and nothing more, and a very selective one at that. 


  • IoCaster et OneFodderUnit aiment ceci

#353
Obadiah

Obadiah
  • Members
  • 5 737 messages

Then why can't I define my character? ... I'm stuck having a Shepard bothered about the child. I'm stuck with a Shepard that hates Cerberus. I'm stuck with a Shepard that has nightmares about PTSD. I'm stuck with a Shepard who's an alliance lapdog. I'm stuck with a Shepard who can't define his relationships with other characters (ala DA:O or ME2). I'm stuck with a Shepard that isn't my Shepard.

 

There were always limits on how much Shepard could be defined.

 

Of course Shepard hates Cerberus - they're crazy in ME3. Bioware doesn't owe anyone an opportunity to role-play liking them.

 

Shepard has PTSD... so what? Nobody wants PTSD, it just happens, and its symptoms are unpredictable. You don't get to chose that. You can only roleplay your response.

 

Mass Effect never let Shepard define relationships with characters the way Dragon Age did. In ME, you either talked to people or didn't, and when you talked to them, you got closer regardless of what you told them. I realized that limitation back in ME1.

 

As for the Alliance, the Shepard I remember was always deferential to the Alliance when speaking to Anderson, Hackett, or Jacob - I don't know why that's suddenly characterized as a "lapdog" in ME3. If you have a problem with that, then you had a problem with ME from the get-go.



#354
ImaginaryMatter

ImaginaryMatter
  • Members
  • 4 163 messages

EDI is built out of Reaper tech. Her software is from the VI on Luna, but her hardware is made from parts of Sovereign. Dr. Chakwas, due to constant proximity should have been indoctrinated.

 

If you ask me the entire way indoctrination was handled in the series was bull****. Read the codex. A child could counter it with modest safety measures. The entire Citadel was Reaper Tech. Everyone on the Citadel should have been indoctrinated due to proximity. But if you study it, it becomes "evil" because the mystical Starbrat somehow knows someone is learning something from the forbidden fruit from his tree of knowledge? 

 

Reaper indoctrination is done as a matter of convenience and contrivance by the writers. It is a plot device and nothing more, and a very selective one at that. 

 

I don't think just because something is Reaper tech doesn't mean it Indoctrinates.

 

But ya, you are right, it increasingly became a handwave to move the plot along. Hopefully, next game they drop it.



#355
MassivelyEffective0730

MassivelyEffective0730
  • Members
  • 9 230 messages

Mass Effect has always restricted roleplaying, ignored previous events, and railroaded the player.

 

Yeah, in ME3 this finally touched your precious Quarians/Cerberus/whatever and things didn't go as you wanted. Sucks, huh, but you shouldn't have been surprised.

 

Some of us had to get used to that earlier than others. These are the writers who thought players who rolled a Sole Survivor in ME1 should let it slide that Cerberus tried to kill them and did kill their friends. Or that players who completed Hades' Dogs should just forget that. If they didn't give a damn about things that happened to the PLAYER CHARACTER did you really think that they'd care what you think about dumb robots and their war with the dumb aliens who made them?

 

People have always been screwed by the writing, this time it just happened to be your turn.

 

You're preaching to the choir, although I really don't know why you're saying it. You're stating what is. I know and agree with what is. I can play the game to see what is. I'm stating that I don't believe it should be like it is. And I believe you agree with me on that. This runs parallel to what's being said. You're not trying to justify what is in the game like Obadiah. You aren't trying say that it's a good thing that limiting Shepard's possible PoV's and ideologies was a good thing. You're only stating what is in the game. I agree, people got screwed out of RP ability, and it sucks. I'm arguing that it shouldn't be like that.


  • Anubis722 aime ceci

#356
MassivelyEffective0730

MassivelyEffective0730
  • Members
  • 9 230 messages

There were always limits on how much Shepard could be defined.

 

Of course Shepard hates Cerberus - they're crazy in ME3. Bioware doesn't owe anyone an opportunity to role-play liking them.

 

Shepard has PTSD... so what? Nobody wants PTSD, it just happens, and its symptoms are unpredictable. You don't get to chose that. You can only roleplay your response.

 

Mass Effect never let Shepard define relationships with characters the way Dragon Age did. In ME, you either talked to people or didn't, and when you talked to them, you got closer regardless of what you told them. I realized that limitation back in ME1.

 

As for the Alliance, the Shepard I remember was always deferential to the Alliance when speaking to Anderson, Hackett, or Jacob - I don't know why that's suddenly characterized as a "lapdog" in ME3. If you have a problem with that, then you had a problem with ME from the get-go.

 

1) Then why call it a role playing game? You're pretty much saying that there is no justifying anything at all in supporting Cerberus and are against it from an RP perspective. I'm saying I disagree completely. What is wrong with having sympathy for Cerberus' goals? Why can't I define a Shepard who doesn't hate them. Yes, they've gone nuts in ME3. That doesn't mean I have to hate them. It just means that I can't work with them. You're actively advocating limiting the player's ability to define their Shepard. Do you really believe that that's a good thing? You don't like Cerberus so the player should be limited from holding sympathy for them?

 

2). Again, same thing. I can RP PTSD. My Shepard certainly wouldn't be feeling it. I didn't when I was in Afghanistan. Once again, you're advocating taking away agency for the player from the Player character in a Roleplaying game.

 

3). I realize that. And I believe that it was a flaw of the ME franchise, something Dragon Age did much better than ME in that aspect. I'm not lamenting it being gone in ME3, I'm lamenting that it wasn't part of the franchise to begin with.

 

4). Really, I didn't. The Shepard I played told Hackett to ****** off in ME1. He did it again in ME2. He told the alliance Admiral who wanted to inspect the Normandy where to shove it. He more or less condemned them in ME2. He told Jacob how he thought they were idiots. Your ability to be negative towards the alliance in ME3 is greatly diminished from ME1 and ME2. Hell in parts of ME3, Shepard could show some bitterness at the alliance in cutscenes. If you're saying you didn't see that, I don't know what to tell you. Now I suddenly have to play a Shepard that agrees with and believes in the alliance, which is a stark contrast to the views that could be held in ME1 and ME2. Are you denying that you couldn't be that in either of those games? And once again, you're advocating limited choice in a roleplaying game. 


  • Anubis722 aime ceci

#357
AlanC9

AlanC9
  • Members
  • 35 698 messages

 
2). Again, same thing. I can RP PTSD. My Shepard certainly wouldn't be feeling it. I didn't when I was in Afghanistan. Once again, you're advocating taking away agency for the player from the Player character in a Roleplaying game.


Um....... you don't mean to actually imply that people who have PTSD choose to have it, do you?

#358
Jorji Costava

Jorji Costava
  • Members
  • 2 584 messages

Um....... you don't mean to actually imply that people who have PTSD choose to have it, do you?

 

That would indeed be silly, but I don't think MassivelyEffective0730 is advocating any such thing. People don't typically choose to have most of the psychological and personality traits that they actually have (nor do they choose their sex, appearance or other physical characteristics), but nonetheless it seems reasonable to expect that in an RPG, players will be given some degree of control over their PC's physical and psychological characteristics, and why shouldn't that include whether or not the PC suffers from PTSD (enough acronyms for you?).


  • DeinonSlayer et Anubis722 aiment ceci

#359
DeinonSlayer

DeinonSlayer
  • Members
  • 8 441 messages

That would indeed be silly, but I don't think MassivelyEffective0730 is advocating any such thing. People don't typically choose to have most of the psychological and personality traits that they actually have (nor do they choose their sex, appearance or other physical characteristics), but nonetheless it seems reasonable to expect that in an RPG, players will be given some degree of control over their PC's physical and psychological characteristics, and why shouldn't that include whether or not the PC suffers from PTSD (enough acronyms for you?).

I RP'd my canon Shepard as having a death wish in ME1 (keeping people at arm's length, avoiding personal attachment) and slowly recovering through the course of the trilogy. Finding something to live for and fighting to keep it. It's not like we would all roleplay Shepard as an unbreakable rock - we frequently see topics these days on "unpersuasive Shep" and the doors it opens. Same thing here.

#360
AlanC9

AlanC9
  • Members
  • 35 698 messages

That would indeed be silly, but I don't think MassivelyEffective0730 is advocating any such thing. People don't typically choose to have most of the psychological and personality traits that they actually have (nor do they choose their sex, appearance or other physical characteristics), but nonetheless it seems reasonable to expect that in an RPG, players will be given some degree of control over their PC's physical and psychological characteristics, and why shouldn't that include whether or not the PC suffers from PTSD (enough acronyms for you?).


In RPG systems that do let you control such things, there are tradeoffs involved; stat allocations, etc. I can see controlling this in a system with, say, DA's Willpower stat. But ME has no such system. So how would this work?

 

Feel free to play the "ME is about avoiding tradeoffs rather than making them" card." Come to think of it, the shooting party with Garrus  lets the player choose if he's a better shot than Garrus, but I'm a huge unfan of that. But what's the proposed mechanism.

 

Edit: I don't think PTSD is a useful shorthand here anyway. A couple of bad dreams do not PTSD make.



#361
DeinonSlayer

DeinonSlayer
  • Members
  • 8 441 messages

You've described two games worth of exposition conversations, most of which we've already had, that would go nowhere.... because "roleplaying". This is what I call an unreasonable expectation.

Even without the previous two games, we were given all the information necessary to make a decision, from in-game advocates and the codex.

Please. They had the word budget for EDI to navel-gaze about multiverses, but couldn't find room to mention that the Geth exterminated everyone who couldn't be evacuated from Rannoch and killed anyone who tried to make contact for the next three centuries? Kinda casts a different light on them when they try to feed you a half-hour slideshow painting themselves as innocent as puppies. They included a unique conversation with James which only plays if you ignore the directions to see what's happening with EDI in the AI core and drop in on him in the shuttle bay instead, but couldn't have the dalatrass (or anyone else) ask Wrex if curing the genophage is really a good idea?
  • Anubis722 aime ceci

#362
AlanC9

AlanC9
  • Members
  • 35 698 messages

Are you keeping an eye out for the new players here? It's not like anyone who played the earlier games didn't know this. Or anyone who reads the Codex. I suppose an unobservant player could think that billions of quarians got away on the fleet, though.



#363
DeinonSlayer

DeinonSlayer
  • Members
  • 8 441 messages

Are you keeping an eye out for the new players here? It's not like anyone who played the earlier games didn't know this. Or anyone who reads the Codex. I suppose an unobservant player could think that billions of quarians got away on the fleet, though.

Yeah, I'm keeping an eye out for new players. "ME3 is the best place to start the trilogy," and all. More to the point, both QvG and the Genophage were treated as gray up to this point; I don't appreciate coaxing players to one side by burying the other.

It only makes sense for the Quarians to bring it up anyway, not to make straw arguments the player is expected to tear down (the word "billions" doesn't appear once in dialogue after ME1 - players only hear that they were "driven off," neglecting that the 99% who couldn't leave were killed off. After initially establishing it, BW skirted around directly mentioning it again - I'm sure many remain under the impression that there were only seventeen million of them to begin with). When it falls on Renegade Shepard to articulate a faction's own position for them, something has gone seriously wrong.

#364
Obadiah

Obadiah
  • Members
  • 5 737 messages

1) Then why call it a role playing game? You're pretty much saying that there is no justifying anything at all in supporting Cerberus and are against it from an RP perspective. I'm saying I disagree completely. What is wrong with having sympathy for Cerberus' goals? Why can't I define a Shepard who doesn't hate them. Yes, they've gone nuts in ME3. That doesn't mean I have to hate them. It just means that I can't work with them. You're actively advocating limiting the player's ability to define their Shepard. Do you really believe that that's a good thing? You don't like Cerberus so the player should be limited from holding sympathy for them?
 
2). Again, same thing. I can RP PTSD. My Shepard certainly wouldn't be feeling it. I didn't when I was in Afghanistan. Once again, you're advocating taking away agency for the player from the Player character in a Roleplaying game.
 
3). I realize that. And I believe that it was a flaw of the ME franchise, something Dragon Age did much better than ME in that aspect. I'm not lamenting it being gone in ME3, I'm lamenting that it wasn't part of the franchise to begin with.
 
4). Really, I didn't. The Shepard I played told Hackett to ****** off in ME1. He did it again in ME2. He told the alliance Admiral who wanted to inspect the Normandy where to shove it. He more or less condemned them in ME2. He told Jacob how he thought they were idiots. Your ability to be negative towards the alliance in ME3 is greatly diminished from ME1 and ME2. Hell in parts of ME3, Shepard could show some bitterness at the alliance in cutscenes. If you're saying you didn't see that, I don't know what to tell you. Now I suddenly have to play a Shepard that agrees with and believes in the alliance, which is a stark contrast to the views that could be held in ME1 and ME2. Are you denying that you couldn't be that in either of those games? And once again, you're advocating limited choice in a roleplaying game.

1) Because you CAN roleplay, and like any game you can do that within limits. Last time I checked, you don't have to hate Cerberus in ME3. You just can't support them. I'm not actively advocating anything, I'm just not complaining about ME3.
 
2) Shepard has PTSD, or maybe he just dreams. Deal with it. It's not even slightly a real problem for character definition.
 
3) Ok, so now you're just someone who knew what they were buying, bought it anyway, and just wants to complain.
 
4) Yeah, I'm pretty much denying that. Your description of how you could respond about the Alliance in ME1 and ME2 is a massive overstatement. I believe the renegade response to the ME1 inspection has the word "respectfully" in it. I understand that your ability to be negative is diminished in ME3, I just think its irrelevant, and it was wise of the devs to focus their resources on other more meaningful parts of the story.

Please. They had the word budget for EDI to navel-gaze about multiverses, but couldn't find room to mention that the Geth exterminated everyone who couldn't be evacuated from Rannoch and killed anyone who tried to make contact for the next three centuries? Kinda casts a different light on them when they try to feed you a half-hour slideshow painting themselves as innocent as puppies.

Yeah, the devs probably didn't put that statement in the game because the interpretation that you're repeating (again) is just the argumentative pro-Quarian interpretation on this forum, and no Quarian in the ME trilogy states the conflict in those particular terms ever.

They included a unique conversation with James which only plays if you ignore the directions to see what's happening with EDI in the AI core and drop in on him in the shuttle bay instead, but couldn't have the dalatrass (or anyone else) ask Wrex if curing the genophage is really a good idea?

...because the answer from Wrex is obvious, unnecessary, and therefore a waste of time.

#365
DeinonSlayer

DeinonSlayer
  • Members
  • 8 441 messages

Yeah, the devs probably didn't put that statement in the game because the interpretation that you're repeating (again) is just the argumentative pro-Quarian interpretation on this forum, and no Quarian in the ME trilogy states the conflict in those particular terms ever.

You were saying?

From ME2 onward, they simply stated it as "The Geth killed billions and drove us from our homeworld." Makes it all the easier to miss.

...because the answer from Wrex is obvious, unnecessary, and therefore a waste of time.

Shepard: "Wrex, you built your power base around gathering the fertile females under your banner. What will happen to your reforms when the cure levels the playing field?"

Wrex: [please enlighten me, Obadiah - what would his obvious and unnecessary answer be?]
  • IoCaster, GhostNappa et Anubis722 aiment ceci

#366
mybudgee

mybudgee
  • Members
  • 23 050 messages
ITT: high levels of subjectivity

#367
von uber

von uber
  • Members
  • 5 525 messages
What happened to the quarian colonies?

#368
MassivelyEffective0730

MassivelyEffective0730
  • Members
  • 9 230 messages

1) Because you CAN roleplay, and like any game you can do that within limits. Last time I checked, you don't have to hate Cerberus in ME3. You just can't support them. I'm not actively advocating anything, I'm just not complaining about ME3.
 
2) Shepard has PTSD, or maybe he just dreams. Deal with it. It's not even slightly a real problem for character definition.
 
3) Ok, so now you're just someone who knew what they were buying, bought it anyway, and just wants to complain.
 
4) Yeah, I'm pretty much denying that. Your description of how you could respond about the Alliance in ME1 and ME2 is a massive overstatement. I believe the renegade response to the ME1 inspection has the word "respectfully" in it. I understand that your ability to be negative is diminished in ME3, I just think its irrelevant, and it was wise of the devs to focus their resources on other more meaningful parts of the story.

 

1) You've changed your position on this. Yes, I know the limit and extent of RP ability in a game as far as actions go, and I know how far it can go as far as behavior or attitude goes. You just went on earlier about how it's bad to support Cerberus, and how Shepard has to hate them. Now you've said that you don't have to hate them at all, you just can't support their actions in a way that advances the plot. I'm not stating that. I'm stating that I wish there was an RP ability to not have to feel guilty about working for them. I wish I could RP my Shepard to be proud of what he did with Cerberus, to be cool with what Cerberus was trying to accomplish, and to express sympathy for their goal for the galaxy (prior to indoctrination).

 

2) It is a problem. Telling me that it's not a problem for you does not negate that it might indeed be a problem. It goes along with the dream sequence's being pretty mixed in their reception. I'm not going to pretend that the reasons are the same for every complaint, but mine was the fact that too much of it was spent 'missing' old friends and worrying about all the dead people in the war. Suffice to say, that really goes against how I portray my Shepard. Dream mechanics and content aside, I wish that they gave you a 'real' opportunity to talk about how the war is affecting your Shepard, especially in relation to the losses of civilians, etc.

 

3) You've just tried over-generalizing my statement to make it appear ridiculous. I'm not complaining. I'm stating something that I wished for the inclusion in the overall series that would make the series better. It doesn't hamper RP ability. It allows me to define relationships and interactions with other characters. It doesn't even have to have the party dismissal system (though that would certainly be welcome). My overall statement, going back to where we started, is that I arguably couldn't define relationships as well as I had in the past in ME3 compared to, say, ME2. In ME2, I could make Miranda or Jack hate me based on choosing who I sided with in their argument, as well as rejecting Jack for Miranda later. I could have Tali hate me due to siding with Legion or releasing information about her father. I could have Thane be bitter over the path his son has started down. I could have Zaeed be relatively pissed off because I squandered his chance to kill Vido Santiago. And I can't do that in ME3.

 

4) It really wasn't. The use of the term 'respectfully' sounded very sarcastic, as if Shepard was taking his power and throwing it into the Admiral's face. I'm in the military myself, and if I said 'respectfully' in that manner, I can guarantee you that I'd get a very lengthy counseling statement from everyone my Commander up to whoever I said it to, and it would probably be a career ender at Promotion time. On a separate note, you could lay into Hackett about why its not your job to go running around fixing his or the alliances problems, and be very up front about it. In ME2, as I said, you can be very condemning of the alliance on multiple counts. And yes, in ME3, as you and I agree with, it was greatly diminished. We disagree on the relevance of it however. I consider RP'ing to be the most integral part of the game, not the story. Considering that the game is an RPG (it says so on the description for it), this is really not an unreasonable expectation that I have the ability to RP to a high degree. Granted, I get that BW and/or EA used a loophole to define it as an 'RPG' by adding some elements into it while taking it as a chance to tell their story (which really wasn't as meaningful as you describe, considering much of it was very one-sided in its portrayal of events and history of the game, and the conclusion was a spectacular failure of narrative execution, even if the concept wasn't altogether terrible), but does that mean that the story has to take precedence over, I don't know, the main point of the series? It has to come ahead of the player's ability to define Shepard as broadly as possible? If that's the case, BW took their story way too seriously in my opinion, and I believe you did too. Mainly considering that the story isn't so meaningful to me once your ability to impact and inflect into it is diminished.


  • OneFodderUnit et Anubis722 aiment ceci

#369
rekn2

rekn2
  • Members
  • 602 messages

OP, i think you feel kicked in the balls because ME is a power fantasy and they remove your power in me3. i think thats why most people hate starkid.



#370
Reorte

Reorte
  • Members
  • 6 601 messages

OP, i think you feel kicked in the balls because ME is a power fantasy and they remove your power in me3. i think thats why most people hate starkid.

Try again, this time without inventing strawmen.



#371
Andrew Lucas

Andrew Lucas
  • Members
  • 1 571 messages
Massive is right,in ME3 we can't express what our Shepard is, We can't say "I belive in Cerberus concept but i disagree of what they are doing now" instead we got "Cerberus is evil,Alliance rules,kill them all" i never trusted Cerberus but that was a example.

#372
AlanC9

AlanC9
  • Members
  • 35 698 messages

 
4) It really wasn't. The use of the term 'respectfully' sounded very sarcastic, as if Shepard was taking his power and throwing it into the Admiral's face. I'm in the military myself, and if I said 'respectfully' in that manner, I can guarantee you that I'd get a very lengthy counseling statement from everyone my Commander up to whoever I said it to, and it would probably be a career ender at Promotion time.


This doesn't make that ME1 dialogue sound very sensible, you know.

#373
AlanC9

AlanC9
  • Members
  • 35 698 messages

Massive is right,in ME3 we can't express what our Shepard is, We can't say "I belive in Cerberus concept but i disagree of what they are doing now" instead we got "Cerberus is evil,Alliance rules,kill them all" i never trusted Cerberus but that was a example.


Well, that's the thing. Add up all the things people are asking Shepard to express different opinions on and we're burning a lot of dialogue.

#374
Reorte

Reorte
  • Members
  • 6 601 messages

Well, that's the thing. Add up all the things people are asking Shepard to express different opinions on and we're burning a lot of dialogue.

Yes, that's the sort of thing that makes the difference between a good game and an awesome one.



#375
Andrew Lucas

Andrew Lucas
  • Members
  • 1 571 messages
I wanted key opinions like ME2 did, not i prefer red instead of blue.