1483 réponses à ce sujet

[Obadiah]

It's pretty clear.

[KaiserShep]

It is, at least to some, but I admit the imagery itself leaves a bit to be desired.

[Invisible Man]

unless no matter what the next me states "the shepard" died in the final stage of the reaper war. with ultra high ems, it only means shep dies in a hospital bed a few days later in that version of the story.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Damn! I forgot. Two years and Two days ago at 3:20 am I blew up the galaxy!!!!

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I will never, ever play Borderlands sober and that is my creed.

 

But yeah, if I'm playing games, I'm usually in relaxation mode already. Think of it like cranking up the difficulty setting without having to click any buttons.

 

Yeah, i know exactly what you mean. Okay, I'm in Washington State. I finished ME3 on some good weed, and usually only played bronze and silver because of that. the ending was a real bummer. 

 

But I'll tell you driving a Mini Cooper around Nurburgring in Forza 2 on that stuff was hard. I couldn't keep the car on the road on the long straightaway. Man, that told me not to go to the store for munchies.

[Hadeedak]

I'm a scotch gal, myself.

 

I have to admit, I've never quite got driving games or STRAIGHT UP shooters. I need my story before I function!

[KaiserShep]

I'm a scotch gal, myself.

 

I have to admit, I've never quite got driving games or STRAIGHT UP shooters. I need my story before I function!

 

I love driving simulator games, but for some reason, I cannot stand most shooter games. The combat itself bores me to tears if I don't know or care why I'm killing these nameless goons.

[Iakus]

unless no matter what the next me states "the shepard" died in the final stage of the reaper war. with ultra high ems, it only means shep dies in a hospital bed a few days later in that version of the story.

Lots of speculations for everybody! 

[voteDC]

I don't get why people say that the breath scene is a clear sign that Shepard survived.

Corpses have been known to take a breath. Given the massive injuries Shepard took before walking toward an exploding tube, then it is highly possible that it was a last gasp, a final breath.

It's just as easy to 'speculate' from the breath scene that Shepard is certainly dead.

[jtav]

Because we know what that image means in the context of a story especially one like ME: the hero has survived against all odds.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I don't get why people say that the breath scene is a clear sign that Shepard survived.

Corpses have been known to take a breath. Given the massive injuries Shepard took before walking toward an exploding tube, then it is highly possible that it was a last gasp, a final breath.

It's just as easy to 'speculate' from the breath scene that Shepard is certainly dead.

 

Scenes in video games are more than just the sum of their parts. Given that the breath scene takes place after a bunch of images and a speech about hope has meaning. Also, you could apply a Chekhov's gun scenario to the scene where just its very inclusion has meaning. I'm not a fan of the ending myself but like a majority of people the implication of the breath scene, the hesitance of whoever to put Shepard's name up on the wall, and the overall hopeful tone of the ending means that Shepard is alive.

[Reorte]

Scenes in video games are more than just the sum of their parts. Given that the breath scene takes place after a bunch of images and a speech about hope has meaning. Also, you could apply a Chekhov's gun scenario to the scene where just its very inclusion has meaning. I'm not a fan of the ending myself but like a majority of people the implication of the breath scene, the hesitance of whoever to put Shepard's name up on the wall, and the overall hopeful tone of the ending means that Shepard is alive.

In short - it relies entirely on the convention that that's what scenes like that in fiction mean, and they wouldn't have been put in otherwise. That's why it's so bloody annoying, it doesn't have any actual meaningful content with which to convey that message, just stuff to take on convention instead of common sense. The sum of its parts is zero.

[Bob from Accounting]

That's just ridiculous.

 

'Convention' is a perfectly valid technique to rely on.

[voteDC]

The whole thing up until that point very much tells us that sacrifice is necessary. Given that it makes it even more likely that we get one last breath as Shepard sees the Reapers being destroyed before going off to his/her own eternal rest. Dying while leaving a more hopeful world behind.

Speculation is a wonderful thing but sometimes leaving things open to interpretation just means that people draw the wrong conclusion. Which is why Bioware had to specify that the people who we saved on the Citadel during the game survived  and weren't all just killed when the Reapers took it and you blew it up. They had that in their heads but never made it clear.

Hence my saying that the breath scene is not a clear sign that Shepard lives. It can be taken as such but it can just as easily be taken the other way.

[AlanC9]

In short - it relies entirely on the convention that that's what scenes like that in fiction mean, and they wouldn't have been put in otherwise. That's why it's so bloody annoying, it doesn't have any actual meaningful content with which to convey that message, just stuff to take on convention instead of common sense. The sum of its parts is zero.

What's wrong with relying on cinematic convention in a cinematic game?

[Iakus]

What's wrong with relying on cinematic convention in a cinematic game?

 

1) cinematic game=/=cinema.  the audience in a game is more of an active participant, and therefore has more of a vested interest in knowing what the frak is going on

 

2) ME3's ending used the wrong convention anyway.  Compare its ending to ME1 and ME2.  

[AlanC9]

I don't follow point 1. How does a player having a vested interest lead to an inability to interpret conventions? If you interpret the convention correctly, you know what's going on. (You were doing better when you were talking about feeling rather than knowing.)

As for point 2, why is it the wrong convention, and what do the earlier games have to do with anything?

[Iakus]

I don't follow point 1. How does a player having a vested interest lead to an inability to interpret conventions? If you interpret the convention correctly, you know what's going on. (You were doing better when you were talking about feeling rather than knowing.)

As for point 2, why is it the wrong convention, and what do the earlier games have to do with anything?

 

1 Because it's the player's character.  Players want to know if they have "won" And they want that victory to feel satisfying.  Unlike movies or tv players were active participants, and they want to know that their activities paid off.  That this is in fact the "good ending" Simply making the ending slightly different by tacking on a few extra seconds of a charred body that's not quite dead yet isn't enough.

 

) Because it didn't follow the conventions of the previous games.  Star Wars is not 2001.  You don't expect Luke Skywalker to go, My God, it's full of stars!" followed by a trippy ending as he becomes the Starchild.  Similarly you don't expect Dave Bowman to pull out a lightsaber and Carve HAL out of the ship.

 

Look at the first two games.  Shepard's survival is made abundantly clear.  Shep climbs out of the rubble.  Shepard leaps to the Normandy and gets pulled aboard by Joker.  Shepard was not an existential philosopher.  Not a hockey mask-wearing monster.  Not some mystical savior.  Shepard was an action hero.  And should have been treated as such.  Shepard's living or dying should have been abundantly clear in all outcomes.

[angol fear]

Look at the first two games.  Shepard's survival is made abundantly clear.  Shep climbs out of the rubble.  Shepard leaps to the Normandy and gets pulled aboard by Joker.  Shepard was not an existential philosopher.  Not a hockey mask-wearing monster.  Not some mystical savior.  Shepard was an action hero.  And should have been treated as such.  Shepard's living or dying should have been abundantly clear in all outcomes.

Shep climbing out the rubble? I remember him almost running. ()  I've always thought that this ending was ridiculous.

Anyway, in Mass Effect 3's ending Shepard still the action hero he was from the beginning.

[CronoDragoon]

It's just as easy to 'speculate' from the breath scene that Shepard is certainly dead.

 

 

No, it's not, unless you are deadset in wanting to believe Shepard dies anyway. It's telling that literally no one was making this argument until a BW employee jokingly suggested it at a panel.

 

Since before the breath scene, the assumption of the narrative is that Shepard is dead, the breath scene would be redundant and have no purpose if it's a scene of him dying. That alone makes the message abundantly clear. Nevermind that your LI doesn't put the plaque on the wall or that the file is named Shepardalive, not Sheparddies.

[Iakus]

No, it's not, unless you are deadset in wanting to believe Shepard dies anyway. It's telling that literally no one was making this argument until a BW employee jokingly suggested it at a panel.

 

Since before the breath scene, the assumption of the narrative is that Shepard is dead, the breath scene would be redundant and have no purpose if it's a scene of him dying. That alone makes the message abundantly clear. Nevermind that your LI doesn't put the plaque on the wall or that the file is named Shepardalive, not Sheparddies.

 

No, that argument was being made before.  It just got a lot more attention when that "joke" was made (which was never stated as a joke or retracted, btw)

 

Also, the breath scene and the LI do not say Shepard survives, only that Shepard is not dead yet.  So yes, it's quite easy to imagine that Shepard ends up succumbing to his wounds, before or after being found.  It's a logical and rational conclusion, given the elements, whether or not that was the intention. 

 

So much for "clarity and closure"

 

This is in addition to the absolute lack of emotional punch from the scene.  Congratualtions, Shepard!  In defeating the Reapers, you broke the relay network, annihilated the geth, killed EDI, wiped out all synthetic life in the galaxy, but you're not qiiiiiiite dead yet.  So, HOPE!  Amirite?

[Iakus]

Shep climbing out the rubble? I remember him almost running. ()  I've always thought that this ending was ridiculous.

Anyway, in Mass Effect 3's ending Shepard still the action hero he was from the beginning.

 

 

And I always thought that ending was perfect for a "good" ending.  CLimbing out of the rubble, limping towards his squadmates with a silly grin on his face...

 

...okay the grin can go. 

[CronoDragoon]

No, that argument was being made before.  It just got a lot more attention when that "joke" was made (which was never stated as a joke or retracted, btw)

 

Show me. I've looked in threads around the time and found at most a single person suggesting it, and then getting dogpiled by everyone (including you by the way) saying that it's clearly not his dying breath.

 

 

 

 

Also, the breath scene and the LI do not say Shepard survives, only that Shepard is not dead yet.  So yes, it's quite easy to imagine that Shepard ends up succumbing to his wounds, before or after being found.  It's a logical and rational conclusion, given the elements, whether or not that was the intention.

 

There's no reason for the LI to be hopeful in the memorial scene if "Shepard dies soon after" is what the scene is showing you. Assuming Shepard dies from his wounds is just being obstinate for the sake of concocting yet another reason to dislike the scene. It completely ignores the fact that you don't need to know the writers' exact intent to understand that the fact of the breath scene's existence itself carries a meaning, and that if the meaning is "Shepard dies from his wounds" then it renders other parts of the story meaningless. There's only one conclusion you can draw from the breath scene consistent with everything you are shown.

 

 

 

So much for "clarity and closure"

 

If fans are this obtuse then no amount of clarity will solve the issue. "Maybe Shepard seems fine in the reunion scene but latent brain damage leads to a stroke two months later!" As you can see such arguments are meaningless. "Shepard is not dead yet." Everyone in life is simply "not dead yet."

 

Of course we know that this argument is only brought up as a decoy for the real argument that you finally detail, which is that anything short of a reunion scene lacks emotional punch. Using the "clarity" of the breath scene to try and facilitate this argument is dishonest.

[Iakus]

There's no reason for the LI to be hopeful in the memorial scene if "Shepard dies soon after" is what the scene is showing you. Assuming Shepard dies from his wounds is just being obstinate for the sake of concocting yet another reason to dislike the scene. It completely ignores the fact that you don't need to know the writers' exact intent to understand that the fact of the breath scene's existence itself carries a meaning, and that if the meaning is "Shepard dies from his wounds" then it renders other parts of the story meaningless. There's only one conclusion you can draw from the breath scene consistent with everything you are shown.

 

There is no reason for the LI to be hopeful period.  It's a completely pointless reaction meant to hammer home HOPE! when there is functionally no differnce between Destroy 3099 and Destroy 3100.  There is no reason for anyone to be looking for Shepard, or to believe Shepard survived at all.  But look, that charred hunk of armor is still breathing, so HOPE!

 

Does this make any sense whatsoever?  The scene makes no sense!

 

 If fans are this obtuse then no amount of clarity will solve the issue. "Maybe Shepard seems fine in the reunion scene but latent brain damage leads to a stroke two months later!" As you can see such arguments are meaningless. "Shepard is not dead yet." Everyone in life is simply "not dead yet."

 

 

See above.  Shepard is a lot more "not dead yet" in ME3 than in ME1.  Shepard is somewhere nobody has reason to look, on a spot no one has reason to think exists, where no one has any reason to think Shepard's alive (it seems virtually everyone has written him off already), and in a condition that casts serious dout as to whether SHepard can extricate himself on his own.

 

But simply by the merits of the scene existing, we're supposed to cast aside all doubt? Just go with it?

 

 

Of course we know that this argument is only brought up as a decoy for the real argument that you finally detail, which is that anything short of a reunion scene lacks emotional punch. Using

the "clarity" of the breath scene to try and facilitate this argument is dishonest.

 

 

I have stated many, many times that a reunion, while ideal, would not be necessary.  Shepard being found by a rescue team would have been fine.  Shepard waking up in a hospital.  Even Shepard stsanding up on his own, where we could see his face and know, yes, this is our Shepard.  Still standing after everyting he's gone though.

 

Even a voice on the Normandy intercomm, reporting SHepard has been found alive might have been enough.

 

But then, SHepard's status in ME3 isn't even my biggest gripe about the game.

 

 

No, that argument was being made before. It just got a lot more attention when that "joke" was made (which was never stated as a joke or retracted, btw)

 

If I sad that, it must have been back in my foolishly naive days when I had faith that Bioware would actually expand on that scene for EC.

 

But then, I also thought that maybe EDI could survive Destroy too

[sveners]

@ChronoDragon

 

Maybe what many are most upset with is the presentation? Maybe iakus was exaggerating to get a point across?

 

"Of course we know that this argument is only brought up as a decoy for the real argument that you finally detail, which is that anything short of a reunion scene lacks emotional punch".... yeah, that's much more honest. Read his reply to Alanc9.

 

Personally, I don't like speculating about the fate of my protagonist after such a long journey. Especially when the point where I'm left to speculate from is of such a dire form.... (and as a bonus, is also the only one)

 

Ok, so Shepard wakes up, alone, still bleeding, maybe punctured by debris from the explosion caused by walking towards, and shooting, an exploding tube.

How does he get out?... maybe communicator? well it didn't work when Hackett tried to issue orders.. maybe someone from Earth are on their way up? Possibly, but don't they have 'bigger' issues to deal with down there? Can he get down on his own? Doubtful, since the Citadel looks completely shattered, and how far could Shep even move in that condition? How much of the synthetic parts are still working, all, none? How can they find a place where no organic has previously been? Does the epicenter of red ball of doom/salvation seem like a great place to start? How long can Shep even survive before being rescued? Minutes? Hours? Days?

 

I'm just not a creative soul, and I can't see any way out. Except Divine Intervention.