1483 réponses à ce sujet

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

It's interesting to see how much certain people demand complex and 'grey' villains until it gets in the way of their happy ending. And then it's all dropped immediately, isn't it?

The face palm is too big to pass up. Can I ask you a question that you're not going to answer? How in the hell are the Reapers a grey villain? I thought they were turning people into zombies, killing people, and grinding them up in a giant food processor, and all and all destroying worlds.

 

Is it because of that last scene where that glowie thing that comes out and says hes gonna destroy the geth and your synthetic friends if you kill them, but hell keep them alive if you go along with one of these other plans of his and keep them alive and kill yourself? 

 

Do you really think that stood in the way of you getting a happy ending? I don't. It's completely unrelated.

 

And even in a different situation, you've heard of the anti-hero, right? If we want to get real, the anti-hero should be able to slime their way into a happy ending. Because we know damned well that idealists get run over in the real world. But they make comic book heroes. Comic book heroes are supposed to be paragons. But these are RPGs. What if we don't want to be paragons?

[Mcfly616]

The face palm is too big to pass up. Can I ask you a question that you're not going to answer? How in the hell are the Reapers a grey villain? I thought they were turning people into zombies, killing people, and grinding them up in a giant food processor, and all and all destroying worlds.

Preventing all life from going extinct has to count for something. Regardless of the means....

[KaiserShep]

I don't suppose that really matters from the perspective of a species being driven to extinction.

 

"I'm killing you for the good of everyone else."

"Yeah, how about no." *shoots tube*

[Mcfly616]

None of that is relevant at that point. Shepard is given a choice to end the war which is the freaking reason she got there in the first place. You really think she's gonna go all Comic Book Guy and ask those silly questions?

you'll get used to seeing this type of complaint around these parts. Some people can't stand the fact that they don't have the option to play '21 questions' over tea with the Catalyst, all while the world is ending around them.

[KaiserShep]

And then Candy Crowley comes out of nowhere and Shepard and the Catalyst are forced to debate over the three options.

[Mcfly616]

I don't suppose that really matters from the perspective of a species being driven to extinction.
 

who said it did?


I merely pointed out that they're not mindless killers that are eradicating civilizations just for the sake of eradicating them.

[KaiserShep]

Neither were the beings of Independence Day. Most villains have some kind of purpose behind their malevolence (though many for personal/emotional reasons), and for all the reasoning behind the extermination cycles, the reapers and catalyst are pretty simple.

[Mordokai]

Neither were the beings of Independence Day.

 

Ba-dum-tsh!

http://instantrimshot.com/

[Mcfly616]

Neither were the beings of Independence Day. Most villains have some kind of purpose behind their malevolence, and for all the reasoning behind the extermination cycles, the reapers and catalyst are pretty simple antagonists.

umm you might want to watch that movie again....


President: "what do you want us to do?"

Alien: "Die."


Ba-dum-TSHH!!


Crystal clear, straight from the horse's mouth.

[KaiserShep]

umm you might want to watch that movie again....


President: "what do you want us to do?"

Alien: "Die."


Ba-dum-TSHH!!


Crystal clear, straight from the horse's mouth.

 

That's what the alien says in the lab chamber, but their ultimate goal was to strip-mine the earth of its natural resources and move on. This obviously is not something that can be done with its inhabitants and their infrastructure intact. It's the same thing as the aliens in War of the Worlds. Their ultimate goal was to terraform the planet; but this necessitates eradicating the planet's biota. The whole reaper cycle thing is not much different. Sure, it's a directive aimed to preserve life in some form in the galaxy, but this necessitates eradicating entire species, and having other species evolve to take their place for however long it takes for someone to stumble across the answer to the problem that plagues their programming, which could have very well been never until the heat death of the galaxy.

[Mcfly616]

That's what the alien says in the lab chamber, but their ultimate goal was to strip-mine the earth of its natural resources and move on. This obviously is not something that can be done with its inhabitants and their infrastructure intact. It's the same thing as the aliens in War of the Worlds. Their ultimate goal was to terraform the planet; but this necessitates eradicating the planet's biota.

they're wiping out all life, bottom line. They're what I'd consider a 'black and white' villain. Or as you would say "simple". The Reapers on the other hand, they're wiping out civilizations in order to ensure that life in general continues. It's a bit more complicated than "we're killing you all for your water and stuff".


It's much different than what the Reapers do and why they do it.

[ImaginaryMatter]

they're wiping out all life, bottom line. They're what I'd consider a 'black and white' villain. Or as you would say "simple". The Reapers on the other hand, they're wiping out civilizations in order to ensure that life in general continues. It's a bit more complicated than "we're killing you all for your water and stuff".


It's much different than what the Reapers do and why they do it.

 

Not all life, the aliens are preserving their own species' life. That alien in the lab may have well been fighting for his wife and child who were hungry at home. They did after all launch their attack because they were fighting for the necessities of life.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

None of that is relevant at that point. Shepard is given a choice to end the war which is the freaking reason she got there in the first place. You really think she's gonna go all Comic Book Guy and ask those silly questions?

 

Yes, actually. I know I would. I want more context on this situation, and more of an understanding of what I'd be doing, and why I'm doing it. I want answers.

[ImaginaryMatter]

you'll get used to seeing this type of complaint around these parts. Some people can't stand the fact that they don't have the option to play '21 questions' over tea with the Catalyst, all while the world is ending around them.

 

It has to do with the notion that the end has Shepard making the biggest decision in the history of forever, one that escalates every previous decision in both range and depth, a decision that Shepard goes into with almost the least information (in a game that has Codex entries, an investigate option, and often at least the bare minimum of multiple view points). The whole ending sequence pretty much banks exclusively on the meta reassurance that this is the end of the game and that the developers aren't going to pull some sort of fast one, I suspect that a more inquisitive or clear headed Shepard wasn't included because then the whole ending sequence would just fall apart.

 

I mean Shepard just sort of nods along with everything the kid says, after it says it's the head honcho of a race of sentient machines who's modus operandi relies heavily on subversion. I guess you can argue that a war was raging on (didn't stop Shepard from spending 20 or so minutes saying good bye to people), Shepard is bleeding out; or that he should accept the Catalyst because, hey, he has nothing to lose -- but that just seems like a handwave to accept a shoddily executed twist. Shepard can't even bring up any of his past experiences dealing with AI (most noticeably EDI and the whole Geth/Quarian thing) when the whole ending is about solving that very problem. It's things like this that just disconnect people (or at least me) from the ending.

 

I'm not saying that there should be an option to ask the Catalyst about... why Sovereign was blowing out so much hot air. But it would have helped the ending if Shepard actually engaged in a conversation with the Catalyst (in a dialogue driven game), for Shepard to relate or touch upon the contents of a story when dealing with the end for that story, to actually discuss the merits of the whole Organic vs Synthetic thing, etc. The ending for ME3 did seem to be reaching for a sort of deep, philosophical ending but it couldn't be bothered to deal with any of the important stuff that makes things meaningful. Rather it just introduced an ending-o-tron machine where some of the options come off as jarring or just completely random.

[MSandt]

Yes, actually. I know I would. I want more context on this situation, and more of an understanding of what I'd be doing, and why I'm doing it. I want answers.

 

Your Shepard is a moron then. A realist would accept the situation for what it is. You've got three/four choices (one of which fulfills your objective), you cannot "will" an improvement and your people are being slaughtered.

[von uber]

Your Shepard is a moron then. A realist would accept the situation for what it is. You've got three/four choices (one of which fulfills your objective), you cannot "will" an improvement and your people are being slaughtered.

But what is the situation? You pass out and awake with a glowy form looking like a child who tells you to go jump off a ledge after telling you it is the leader of the things trying to do a little genocide.
And you think it's reasonable to not go 'er.. hang on..'?

[MSandt]

But what is the situation? You pass out and awake with a glowy form looking like a child who tells you to go jump off a ledge after telling you it is the leader of the things trying to do a little genocide.
And you think it's reasonable to not go 'er.. hang on..'?

 

And what good would any of that do? If Shepard doesn't trust the starchild, then boohoo. If she were to state or ask something pointless such as "I don't trust you", then answer would obviously be "that's your problem." Her options are limited by the system the starchild designed and no amount of conversation is going to change that. 

[KaiserShep]

On the one hand, I do prefer to have greater context, but on the other hand, I don't really have much choice regardless of what I ask. Thinking about it, my want to argue the merits of the inevitable synthetic/organic conflict is ultimately meaningless too, because that won't change what happens when I select Destroy, which is my one and only desired path. In the end, the thing I'd be arguing with is dead along with its minions, so it's not like that argument would have mattered.

[von uber]

And what good would any of that do? If Shepard doesn't trust the starchild, then boohoo. If she were to state or ask something pointless such as "I don't trust you", then answer would obviously be "that's your problem." Her options are limited by the system the starchild designed and no amount of conversation is going to change that.

You are correct, but that leads to a greater problem. Why does it bother on the first place? The reapers are winning. They will win regardless. Why not just let shep die next to Anderson?
If it's because 'reasons' then expecting some explanation shouldn't be out of the question for the player (let alone shep).

My first ever play through I ended up with refuse because I was so confused as to what the hell was going on. That is not good game design; the lack of interrogation and ability to question liea at the heart of it.

[themikefest]

Its funny when you have low ems the Leviathan Turd has a bad attitude towards you, but when you have high ems the thing is nice. I never knew an AI can have emotions. I would believe it would be the same whether your ems is 1000 or 10 000.

[KaiserShep]

There should be a super low EMS version, where the Catalyst walks up to you, and says in Herren's voice "Ooh...it's you."

[von uber]

Super low EMS should have Shep dying as she hits the chamber floor, and the last thing she sees is the annilhation of the entire fleet and the subjugation of the galaxy.

No voice over, nothing.

[voteDC]

Your Shepard is a moron then. A realist would accept the situation for what it is. You've got three/four choices (one of which fulfills your objective), you cannot "will" an improvement and your people are being slaughtered.

You think a realist would accept the word of something that has just admitted to you that it controls your enemies? You think a realist, on nothing more than the word of his enemy, would kill himself because it is meant to stop the enemies?

No realist would believe "hey, if you kill yourself It'll stop me wiping everyone out."

A realist would be thinking 'where's this things blue box?'

[Daemul]

Its funny when you have low ems the Leviathan Turd has a bad attitude towards you, but when you have high ems the thing is nice. I never knew an AI can have emotions. I would believe it would be the same whether your ems is 1000 or 10 000.

 I prefer the Catalyst in low EMS, he's more upfront about the whole thing, especially how organics only have themselves to blame for this synthetic vs organic thing. It actually made me question why I'm even trying to save organics, they never learn from their mistakes. History is always bound to repeat itself. 

 

"You brings this on yourselves" 

 

True that *looks at Quarians*. 

[Farangbaa]

I never really understood the Catalyst hate. I never really understood the ending hate either.

 

I cannot have been the only one who entered the decision chamber, talked to the Catalyst and thought: "finally, it makes sense".

 

From the first time I spoke to Sovereign, I had 2 questions:

-Why?

-Who made you?

 

The Catalyst answered both. I was a happy man after ME3.